What's the deal with boxes?

[ElizaLeahy]

Oh no, you are saying, she is back!

Yeah, questions, questions, questions!!!

With bowls it's making the walls as thin as possible and the same thickness throughout - as well as being pleasing to the eye (although that's subjective)

With tops it's that they SPIN! lol

With pens it's that there is no gap between the wood and the metal of the pen, that the nib comes out the right lenth and that it's pretty (although that's subjective)

So what is it with boxes? That the lid fits, that the grain lines up, and that they are pretty (although that's subjective). Anything else I should keep in mind?

Thanks :)

[eisbaer]

form is important but i find that's dependent on grain. Pretty grain doesn't need much to make it look good but plain timbers need a good shape i think.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

So what is it with boxes? That the lid fits, that the grain lines up, and that they are pretty (although that's subjective). Anything else I should keep in mind?

How about if you think of them as lidded bowls? :)

[Ironwood]

Hi Eliza.

To me it would be, in no particular order, form, lid fit, grain alignment, after that it would be finish, timber selection etc.

Richard Raffan wrote an excellent book called "Turning Boxes" it covers everything you need to know. It may be in your local library, or bookshop.

[ElizaLeahy]

How about if you think of them as lidded bowls? :)


So should I be trying for a thiner wall with the inside following the outside shape? Drat it.

lol

Too late now to start another, and tomorrow have to do the dreaded housework. I don't see time to play with boxes again until MONDAY!!!!!!!!

(I'm got some lovely light fiddleback something laminating with a piece of madagascan ebony at the moment)

[jefferson]

Hi Eliza.

Richard Raffan wrote an excellent book called "Turning Boxes" it covers everything you need to know. It may be in your local library, or bookshop.

I need to be careful in what I say here about the Raffan book / DVD on boxes. (I have the complete Raffan set that I have read /watched quite a few times).

Can I respectfully submit that it doesn't cover all you need to know? :wink:

The end grain hollowing techniques described are not the only options - and in my mind can be dangerous on hard Oz timbers and particularly for beginners.

A much safer way has been shown to me recently. It's slow but almost "Jeff-proof" and this is how it goes:

- bore a depth hole just above the bottom of your intended hollow with a drill bit in the tailstock
- use a "long and strong" detail gouge with a long fingernail grind (rest set for right on centre)
- tilt the gouge at 45 degrees, flute facing you, just inside the depth hole
- then simply pull the gouge from inside to out, using your left hand to control the cut
- try 1mm cuts and then some more, depending on the wood and your skill level
- as you near the rim, you MUST push the handle away from you (the reason for this is that you don't want to expose the wide wing of the gouge to the side grain).

It works a treat and is very simple compared with the back-hollowing technique that Raffan describes.

His "safer" method of hollowing - using the gouge as you would on a bowl - doesn't give a great off-the-tool finish on some woods. This is end grain all the way with lidded boxes, not a mix of side and end grain as we get when turning bowls.

IMHO of course! :D

[Ed Reiss]

Anything else I should keep in mind?

expansion and contraction

[jefferson]

I forgot to say that the "safe" Raffan method of hollowing end grain (ie, doing it like a bowl from outside to inside in ever increasing wider cuts) is always up-hill cutting. There's no supporting fibres underneath - that's why the method I suggested is much better, albiet a little more slow in hoggin the waste out.

[ElizaLeahy]

Anything else I should keep in mind?

expansion and contraction

Oh yeah! A friend gave me a set of those Russian dolls (only they are cats) and I opened them and looked at them and admirered them - and then put them back together and I've NEVER been able to get them apart again!!!

On my second box today I had the lid jammed on so tight I thought it was going to be the Russian dolls all over again - but I levered it off with the skew.

hee

Any suggestions for my Russian dolls? I don't want to lever them apart with the skew :)

[ElizaLeahy]

I forgot to say that the "safe" Raffan method of hollowing end grain (ie, doing it like a bowl from outside to inside in ever increasing wider cuts) is always up-hill cutting. There's no supporting fibres underneath - that's why the method I suggested is much better, albiet a little more slow in hoggin the waste out.

Wondering what ELSE I'm doing wrong - I always cut the inside of my bowls from the middle to the outside - am I don't it wrong?

[RETIRED]

Basic rule of thumb: from larger to smaller diameter.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Tsk, tsk, ! What were you saying earlier about a beginner? :U

It depends on which way the grain is oriented, Eliza.

If it's mounted with the grain running parallel to the bed - like putting the end of a branch straight into the chuck (this is spindle turning) - then you start from the centre and cut towards the outside. If it's mounted with the grain at right angles to the bed (this is bowl turning) then you hollow from the outside towards the centre.

In both cases, when turning the outside you cut in the opposite way to which you hollowed it.

[RETIRED]

Tsk, tsk, ! What were you saying earlier about a beginner? :U

It depends on which way the grain is oriented, Eliza.

[list]If it's mounted with the grain running parallel to the bed - like putting the end of a branch straight into the chuck (this is spindle turning) - then you start from the middle and cut towards the outside.
If it's mounted with the grain at right angles to the bed (this is bowl turning) then you hollow from the outside towards the middle.[/list

In both cases, when turning the outside you cut the opposite way.Oops I forgot the normal rider. It depends on what you are doing.

[ElizaLeahy]

I really am going to have to find some time soon to do another bowl. I think I have learnt about 10 new things today!

Thank you all!!!

:)

[tea lady]

Wondering what ELSE I'm doing wrong - I always cut the inside of my bowls from the middle to the outside - am I don't it wrong?One cross grain bowls I go from the outside to the middle. On end grain bowls from the middle to the outside. (This goes for scrapers as well. Could be another reason you are having catching probs. :shrug: )


Basic rule of thumb: from larger to smaller diameter.:? That's on the outside of spindles yes? :hmm:

[tea lady]

Oh! I forgot the other things I was going to say.:rolleyes:

Having borrowed Richard Rafan's book from the library, seems there is a lot to think about with lid fit, and use for different purposes. If you use it for something where you want to take the lid off one handed, you don't want a tight fit. And you want the weight distributed differently that in a simple bowl, cos you've got different details going on with the rim and knob etc. Seems we've got more to think about in the challenge than we bargained for.:C At least "they" can't feel the weight of it in photos.:cool:

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Having borrowed Richard Rafan's book from the library, seems there is a lot to think about with lid fit, and use for different purposes. If you use it for something where you want to take the lid off one handed, you don't want a tight fit.

At our turning club we had one or two show-offs who always - and I mean always - went for a "vacuum fit."

They'd bring 'em in to proudly display, fresh off the lathe. But they never, ever brought one in that was a few weeks old. I wonder why? :innocent:

[Texian]

At our turning club we had one or two show-offs who always - and I mean always - went for a "vacuum fit.

Quite right. Those snap, pop, suction and vacuum fits are to impress other turners. Paying customers prefer lids they can remove with one hand without lifting the whole piece off the table, and then maybe crashing to the floor.

[oldiephred]

With most boxes one should enjoy and photograph soon after completion because it might never ( or perhaps rarely is a better word) again have the same smooth fitting cover that will fit in any angular position, if it fits at all. IMHO of course.

[ElizaLeahy]

Oh good, Tea Lady is confused too!!!

Glad I'm not the only one.

Trying to understand what is SAID and not SEEN is difficult sometimes!

[Mulgabill]

Right on Skew!
I have learnt that the hard way. Some time ago I sold a couple of matching Eucalypt boxes and, thinking that I was clever, had the "vacuum fit" lids. After a short time I was told the lids no longer fitted.:~
I fixed the problem, and have ever since produced not one " vacuum fit" lidded box.
Our friend Ken W at a recent demonstration stated that he thought the the lids should be able to be removed with one hand.
For me, I like Kens thinking. :2tsup:

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

:yes: Mind you, it's a good feeling when you get one to just that nice, snug fit on the first attempt. And I certainly don't blame 'em for wanting to show off.

But if the box is gonna be a user, it's best to remount it afterwards and remove that li'l bit extra more...