Cork, Screw or Plastic

[HappyHammer]

We had friends over a couple of weeks ago and they bought a bottle of white wine with them as we only drink and stock red. I reached in the draw for the corkscrew and when I went back to the bottle noticed it had a screw cap. I must admit I had a little chuckle to myself thinking they were cheap bastards when I realised it was a pretty decent vineyard (Can't remember which one).

It seems that the question regarding the seal on our favourite drop is wide open so I wondered what your thoughts were on whether Cork, Screw caps or plastic corks were the best?

HH

[silentC]

I have to admit to being a bit old-fashioned in this regard.

Screw caps are for bottles of tomato sauce and Lambrusco. The plastic corks seem, well, plastic. I know that many of the bigger wineries are experimenting with screw caps. That should tell you something: they're cheaper.

I suppose with the 'made for drinking now' range, it doesn't really matter. I don't know whether it's BS or not but I was told by a chap in a winery that the wine being in contact with the cork allows it to 'breathe' and helps with the ageing process. If your bottle of 2003 blended red is going to sit on your table in the restaurant for a maximum of two minutes before being opened, I don't suppose it makes any difference.

Besides, being woodworkers, I'd have thought the cork would be more appealing.

[jackiew]

went to a v. upmarket vineyard in South Australia and they bottle some of their v. v. expensive wines without corks.

their argument for doing so went something like this .... cork is a natural product which gets stripped off of trees. These trees have birds pooing on them, shepherds pissing on them etc etc etc. result is that sometimes corks can be contaminated. They reckoned if we found a fair percentage of the cans of baked beans we bought spoiled when we opened the can we'd be kicking up a big fuss but for some reason people don't complain that much when its wine that is spoilt. sometimes people don't even realise the wine HAS been spoilt .. but they may decide never to buy that wine again because they didn't like it.

If someone gives me a bottle of wine I either like it or don't like it ... If someone consistently brought wine which I didn't like I might then suspect they were being cheap but if it was $6.99 a bottle and tasted fine I wouldn't care.

where's the "don't care" option in the poll :)

[silentC]

Sounds like a long winded way of saying "screw caps are cheaper" to me. Probably a lot more wineries would switch but I'd bet they are worried that they will lose market share because in most people's minds, screw cap = cheap wine.

The question is not whether or not screw caps are more reliable, there's probably no doubt about that, but whether there is any improvement in the wine when it is cellared with cork. Seems to fly in the face of reason that wineries would be denying this now after several hundered years of winemaking. Screw cap bottles have been around for a long time too.

[HappyHammer]

Jackiew, Might get too many people copping out if I gave the don't care option.

On cheap isn't necessarily bad, I have to agree I bottle 3 dozen bottles of red every year that I get from a vineyard in Mudgee. They send me the keg (always a red blend), 36 corks and labels and it works out about $5.75 a bottle. In addition to the wine we also get a great day putting the wine into bottles where we invite friends to buy a share of a keg, or a full keg and then have everyone around for a BBQ and to take part in the bottling of everyones wine. Sometimes don't make 36 bottles due to production line tasting. The most we bottled in one day was 144 bottles or four kegs. Great fun!

HH

[Wood Borer]

I voted for the cork but like others, I buy the bottle of wine for the wine and not for the label, bottle or whether it has a cork or not.

If the other alternatives for cork perform just as well or better then go for it as cork is a diminishing resource from what I hear. Silent's comment about keeping the wine for a long time and the cork taking part in the aging process is interesting.

- Wood Borer

[PAH1]

Scientifically the better quality synthetic stoppers are a great deal better than cork. You get the controlled ageing of cork without any issue of spoilage, not from sheppards etc but chemicals from the wood going into the wine.

A largish porportion of wine is spoiled as Jackie said, at $3000+ a bottle for the upper end of town it is a significant risk. The problem is exactly SilentC's attitude, it is cheap bad etc if it does not have a real cork and therefore does not sell as well. The exception is at the very lowest end of the market where price is the only issue.

[silentC]

The problem is exactly SilentC's attitude

Don't go blaming my attitude for the wine industry's problems :p

According to this link, they've yet to come up with something that seals as well as cork, except for screw caps:

http://www.wineanorak.com/corks/introduction.htm

[PAH1]

[QUOTE=silentC]Don't go blaming my attitude for the wine industry's problems :p

Ah context is a wonderful thing, it was the attitude of the consumer that you expressed. Forgive me if it sounded harsh

I was actually talking about the controlled oxidation/spoilage issue, the problem is that cork comes in a variety of grades and it becomes one of those apple/orange comparisons. Wine that is hermetically sealed stays put, no ageing, given that a good claret apparently takes about 20yrs of slow oxidation to be drinkable sealing is not really the full answer. There is a worldwide shortage of cork and this has driven the alternative technology, but at the core is the belief of many people that wine needs a cork, helped admitedly because of some very bad examples of early synthetic corks and the fact that for many years only cheap wine came in screw caps.

[silentC]

I was just reading another article by the same chap (who is a supporter of synthetic stoppers) on the results of some tests carried out by the Australian Wine Research Institute.

http://www.wineanorak.com/closuretrial.htm

It's pretty well agreed that a screw cap provides as close to a perfect seal as you can get. The surprising result was that the bottles sealed with a screw cap presented a rubber-like taste/aroma after 18 months. The consensus was that this may be due to a lack of oxygen.

Of the synthetics, although none of them contaminated the wine with TCA (this is the chemical in cork that causes corking in about 1-2% of bottles) they've been unable to make one that seals as well as cork for as long a period without making it so tight it's impossible to pull.

The upshot is that if the wine is for drinking in the short term, a screw cap is probably the best choice because it is not going to contaminate the wine. In the long term, the jury is out on whether a bottle aged under a screw cap is going to taste the same as a bottle aged under cork.

"An important question to consider: do we really want a perfect seal?"

[bitingmidge]

Well I didn't vote.

I don't drink, and only ply m'Lady with champers.

Of course, I wouldn't think of opening the bottle any other way than with one clean blow of my sabre......blindfolded.

Under the circumstances I don't actually care what they use to seal the things as long as they cover the seal with something pretty.
:cool: :cool: :cool:

bitingzorro

[bob w]

I must admit I do like a good red and so far have been very disappointed with the one's I have tried with screwtops regardless of the price. I have always believed that in order to age a wine properly the bottle had to be laid on it's side and therefore the cork kept moist. Is this to stop the cork from drying out and shrinking whereby allowing air to affect the process?
Regards
Bob (hic)

[Jack E]

I was at the Wolf Blass Winery on Thursday (lucky me) and was surprised to see screw caps only on their up market range of wines.
I asked why this was the case and was told it was primarily to eliminate oxygen. Another reason cork isn't used is due to the fact that it can be quite easily contaminated by outside influences, especially in the chemical processes used to clean the raw cork product.
I disagree with Silent C's comments that this is a cost base change. I would hate to be paying the bill for the re-tooling and the changes to production process in a winery with the output of wolf Blass or any of the other large wineries which are changing to screw caps.
With the amount of money spent on wine these days I find it hard to believe any change in the process would me made on a whim and I have a fair bit of faith in those making the decisions at many of the better wineries in Australia.
I have been known to spend a little money on my wines and do not hesitate to buy what I hope to be a good wine with a screw top.
I guess only time will tell and only if my wines are cellared correctly.

[silentC]

Jack,

I'd find it hard to believe that any decision made by a company was not at least partly based on economics. When faced with a decision, the first alternative is to do nothing, which is exactly what they have done for hundreds of years. It would be nice to think that companies do things for the common good but anyone running a business will tell you that they are not a charity.

The reason they have done nothing for so long is that for some reason people have been more accepting of the problem, or don't even realise it is there. People are now starting to reject wine that has corked, so some wineries think they need to do something about it. We are talking around 1-2% of bottles produced. Cork is also becoming scarce and is likely more costly to harvest and process than to manufacture a screw cap.

If you read some of the literature around on it, you'll see that there is a debate raging on the subject and it's being conducted by people who know a lot more about it than you or I. If you read the link I posted, you'll see that they can't even decide whether the cork has anything to do with the ageing process but neither can they rule it out.

Naturally a winery that has made the change (ie. Wolf Blass) is going to a) be convinced that it was the right thing to do and b) try to convince you of the same. They want you to buy their wine, after all.

[Jack E]

Silent C

I do agree that the wineries are changing corkage methods due to the fact that cork is a finite resource.
This, coupled with the huge costs in production change lead me to believe that any changes would not be made lightly and they would only change to a suitable alternative. Obviously they will tell customers that the change they have made is for the best but I think this will be more truth than fiction due to the fact they stand to lose multiple millions of dollars if even one vintage is lost due to the change.
One thing that does intrigue me is why Wolf Blass have only changed to screw tops on their premium range and not on the "drink now" varieties.
I have also read that the losses due to corkage in Australian wines are as high as 1 in 12. I read this in the magazine that comes quarterly from one of my wine clubs.
As you said, it is unsure whether a screw cap will allow wine to age and I guess we will have to wait and see. I look forward to opening the Wolf Blass 2001 Black Label Shiraz in about eight years, I will let you know how it goes.
If it is no good I will be sending it back to Mr Blass as it was not cheap!!
I also have a bottle of Seppelt Para Liquer Port of the 1983 vintage which I was given as a gift for being a groomsmen on the weekend. It is sealed with cork and says it is drinking at its best right now although can be cellared for many years. Perhaps I will crack the two together in eight years and compare!!

[HappyHammer]

I also have a bottle of Seppelt Para Liquer Port of the 1983 vintage which I was given as a gift for being a groomsmen on the weekend. It is sealed with cork and says it is drinking at its best right now although can be cellared for many years. Perhaps I will crack the two together in eight years and compare!!
My money is on the Port.

HH

[kiwigeo]

Since my recycling bin is usually filled to the brim with empty wine bottles by collection day I feel at least slightly qualified to enter this discussion on wine bottle closures.

Ive thought long and hard about the cork versus screwtop ssue and have come to the conclusion that there are two ways to approach it:

1. from a purely sentimental and asthetic angle in which case cork is the best closure..nothing beats the satisfying "plop" that accompanies the withdrawal of a cork. Nothing compares with the challenge of retrieving the remaining half of a parted cork from the neck of a bottle.

2. from a more practical and economical point of view screw top or Stelvin seals as theyre known in the trade are superior to corks. One of the cons of using cork is the presence of a contaminant called 2,4,6 Trichloroanisole or ""TCA" which is frequently present in cork. Wine with even minute quantities of TCA present has an unforgetable wet hessian-like odour and the wine is reffered to as "corked". Most people would probably have never smelt a corked wine but most wineries can expect a surprisingly large percentage of their product produced under cork to end up corked. Its an irritating problem when you're talking about a sub $10 quaffer but when its a '98 Hill of Grace its a different story.

Cheers Martin

[Theva]

I did not vote because my preference is plastic for whites and cork for reds. No screwcaps thanks.

Reason, you normally donot smell the stopper on whites, only on reds :D .

Regards,

Theva

[kiwigeo]

I did not vote because my preference is plastic for whites and cork for reds. No screwcaps thanks.

Reason, you normally do not smell the stopper on whites, only on reds :D .


I dont quite understand the reasoning Theva or maybe Im not quite on your wavelength here. Are you talking about actually smelling the stopper or are you talking about the smell OF the stopper

A corked wine smells just as horrible whether its a red or a white wine....the TCA taints the wine as well as the cork.

TCA is such a pungent compound that quantities as small as 4 nanograms per litre (= "sweet FA") can be detected by the human olfactory system.

This poll should have probably best been started with a "pre-Poll" to establish who has actually smelt/tasted a corked wine...the experience is one you dont forget.

Martin

[kiwigeo]

[QUOTE=silentC]I have to admit to being a bit old-fashioned in this regard.

[QUOTE]

Silent,

You've pretty well hit the nail on the head with your opening line. IMO The pro cork argument is to a large degree based on good old fashined resistance to change. Understandable since cork has been around for so long but I have yet to see a sound argument against Stelvin seals.

The bottom line is making wine is a business and if using Stelvin seals is going to reduce (significant) lost revenue due to corked wines with no degeradation in the quality of the product then it's the logical step for a wine producer to take.

Cheers Martin

[silentC]

Most people would probably have never smelt a corked wine ...


This poll should have probably best been started with a "pre-Poll" to establish who has actually smelt/tasted a corked wine...the experience is one you dont forget.

If it was as big a problem as some say, then surely everybody who drinks wine regularly would have experienced it? My wife and I drink a bottle of red every night. I think we had a corked bottle once about 3 years ago.

The link I included above does have an argument against Stelvin seals, albeit a weak one. Has any thorough testing been done by a third party yet? I've seen some released by wineries that have already switched but naturally they would want the results to reflect that they made the right decision. It seems to be a hotly debated issue though. I expect we'll see more wineries going over to Stelvins, especially if the production costs are cheaper.

None of the wineries I buy from use screw caps, although I admit that might change. If it does, I'll have to consider then if I want to keep buying from them. Some of them do use plastic corks but they are a minority.

Are you 'in the trade' Martin?

[Theva]

Martin,

Smelling the stopper.

I do agree that the reds matured in corked bottles so smell a bit funny at times.

Regards,

Theva

[LineLefty]

I vote for screw caps, or Stelvins, as they're supposedly known. I was going to write a few pages on my thoughts, but, jeez, look at how much has already been written? I'd get the sack if I spent all day reading that.

[Driver]

I didn't vote in the poll. My preference would be to have no plastic "corks" at all. They can be very difficult to extract with a normal corkscrew. I don't have any real objection to Stelvins, however. So far the wines I've tasted from Stelvin-capped bottles have been pretty good. It'll be interesting to see - in a few years time - if they retard the aging process for good quality reds.

Logic says there may be some difference between a red aged under cork and the same red aged under Stelvin but, unless someone conducts a control sample type test, it's going to be very difficult to establish exactly what the difference is.

I'd be happy to offer my services as a taster! :)

Col

[Termite]

If we do away with the corks I lose my excuse for having so many bottles of wine.
Cork munching Termite

[kiwigeo]

Are you 'in the trade' Martin?
No...

Wine is a bit of a passion though..my consumption of same is probably well above the national average and I also have quite a few friends in the wine making game.

I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my office mate out here on the oil rig Im currently working on is a winemaker back home in California. Hes a great source of inside info and usually turns up with a huge pile of Wine Estate magazines that get picked through with a fine tooth comb during the quieter monents out here.

The most interesting industry person Ive met is a Taiwanese born Kiwi wine maker who bides his time between making wine in NZ and the Hunter Valley. Hes a walking encyclopedia of wine making and he's also blind...Ive never met a guy with such well developed senses of taste and smell. His guide dog is a bit of an expert too.....he can pick up the scent of a piece of cheese from 100m away!

Apart from simply enjoying drinking wine, as a Geologist Im fascinated by the influence geology and soil has on the character of a wine....trying to identify what makes wines from a particular area different from wines from another part of the country.

Martin

[silentC]

I dare say that the soil type has a lot more affect on the end result than the closure. It will be interesting to see what happens. I love the stuff too much to stop drinking it because of a screwcap (he says with a glass in his hand).

BTW did anyone see the article in SMH today that reports on a new study regarding wine consumption as it relates to brain efficiency? If it's true, I should be a veritable genius :D

[kiwigeo]

I dare say that the soil type has a lot more affect on the end result than the closure. It will be interesting to see what happens. I love the stuff too much to stop drinking it because of a screwcap (he says with a glass in his hand).

BTW did anyone see the article in SMH today that reports on a new study regarding wine consumption as it relates to brain efficiency? If it's true, I should be a veritable genius :D
Soil type and climate..part of what they call "Terroir". Ive just finished reading a great book on geology and how it affects the wine growing areas of France. The guys a retired geology professor and hes done some very thorough research on both the geology and wines of the region.

I think youre taking a very mature approach by worrying more about what comes out of the bottle than what's on top of the bottle....its pretty much the way I approach a wine.

Yes I noticed the article on wine and brain efficiency on the SMH website this morning...and like you Im still waiting for these effects to kick in.

[John Saxton]

I'm surprised Christopha hasn't entered the debate with his beloved Coonawarra reds bottled whether in the norm as the poll suggests or of other means.

Living in the South West of W.A. having access to Margeret River I must admit I still have a preference for time tested corked bottled wine moreover if its the red variety.

Having been party to and with many $$$ laid down with the penchant for a good red over the 25 years we have been fotunate in that the select wineries we visited over time have stayed with a corked bottle which is just as well as it would make my rather unique cork screw redundant.

I still have an SAS 25yr corked port that has stood the test of time and not being a port drinker it is still in perfect seal despite being subject to removals and temperature variation,though I cannot guarantee that the contents are of a like nature.

Cheers or bottoms up, salut'e ,Slang'e :)

[kiwigeo]

I'm surprised Christopha hasn't entered the debate with his beloved Coonawarra reds bottled whether in the norm as the poll suggests or of other means.


Might save him the trouble......Coonowarra reds are by far dominate my cellar and I could rave on for hours about them. Got hooked on the Coonowarra while drilling some wells just outside Penola...couldnt leave the place without sampling the wines...felt like the right thing to do since the oil company was naming all its wells after the local vineyards.

The Coonowarra Terra-Rosa versus the "other" soils debate is a very interesting one and I havent yet come to a conclusion as to whos right and whos wrong.

[kiwigeo]

Screw caps gaining on cork......36% and counting.


Right Im off to the winery to collect my kick back.

Martin

[Kris.Parker1]

Go the good ole traditional cork. Nothing like ripping the cork off and having a sniff!