Best glue for Brushbox?

[GregLee]

I'm looking at doing a coffee table, corner unit and entertainment unit using a mixture of BrushBox, Victorian Ash and Hoop Pine. I've heard that you can have problems glueing brushbox. Any suggestions regarding the best glue would be much appreciated?

[craigb]

G'day Greg,

Titebond II is considered a pretty good glue. Carbatec sell it.

What are the problems with brushbox? I've never worked it so I'd be interested in hearing.

Cheers

Craig

[E. maculata]

Gidday good people, Brushbox has several adhesion issues,
#1- extremely high tannin/acid content even when seasoned retains high percentage of moisture remaining possess' very low PH, some glues have troubles with this
#2- high shrinkage/expansion rates within timber structure with humidity/moisture fluctuations, which is an extremely relevant subject that rightfully gets lots of attention on these boards.
#3- has the second highest silica content of any timber I've had any association with can be >15 percent. So much so on a real sunny day it seems to sparkle off the saw.

Having said that on some of my BBX pieces have used good old high quality PVA and also good construction adhesives (oh the shame of it all, in furniture too!) & hidden expansion areas where practical, with no failures so far.
I also try never to assemble pieces with certain species mix during the humid months, may be going overboard, but my experience leads me to this conclusion.
Brushbox IMHO is one of the most striking timbers, quite hard although brittle with natural characteristics that make each tree almost unique, unfortunately in years gone by we used to ringbark it as a non-commercial species in some regions.

[GregLee]

Thanks for the help. I also think Brushbox is very striking and have kept away from it because of the supposed difficulties with glueing etc. However, SHMBO has fallen in love with it as the timber of choice for an entire lounge room full of furniture. So it looks like I have to learn to use it. One step at a time. I'm also looking at mixing it with some lighter varieties such as Vic Ash. Any problems with this?

[Arron]

Hi Greg.

Before using brush box I did some research and found that the only glue that carries a manufacturers recommendation for brushbox is AV Syntec's AV515. It is indeed very like Titebond. Quite cheap too. I drove out to somewhere by Wetherell Park to get it.

I dont think you will have any problems with joint strength using AV515. The problem which I found quite overwhelming though was getting the sqeeze-out off. In fact its really foam-out not squeeze-out because this is one of those polystyrene glues that moisture cures into a foam. You cant scrape it off easily and no solvent like acetone makes the slightest impact on it. I did a dresser and estimated I spent 30% of the total time just trying to get dry glue off. Strategies like using masking tape etc helped a little but really not much.

For curiosity sake, I did some joints with crosslinked PVA and then tried some strength tests - it seemed to hold very well - but there is no way I would use it to make furniture I wanted to last a long time as by reputation it will fail after a few years.

Brush box is a beautiful timber, but really it is a hassle. The most outstanding thing is how quickly it dulls plane blades.

I (modestly) suggest you do a search on my name in the woodworking pics forum and you can see a bedroom suite I did in brush box. It might show you how the timber can be used. I would not mix bb with anything else, particularly not boring old Vic ash. Perhaps it might work well with a dark timber.

Couple more tips. I bought my brushbox from Nunkeri Timber (Sydney yellow pages) at $13.50 pm (gst inclusive) for 200 x 21mm (plus $40 dressing). I drove all the way to Mudgee to get it but he will deliver cheaply. It is not select quality - but at that price it is still very cheap.

Brims Boards has a brushbox board at about $120 per 8'x4' sheet. This will keep the cost down. Its veneer over HMR. Nice stuff.

ps. did you go to the markets. I went this morning. Not much happening - most of the tool guys havent been there for several weeks now. I did buy one thing - an almost new German scrub plane for $10 which I thought was too expensive until I got home and saw it advertised for 50euros on the net.

cheers
Arron

[E. maculata]

Pretty well agree with Arron, , although I'm extremely fortunate in that I can quite often select the tree that my timber will come from, have great advice in seasoning and as a result can be that bit more adventurous in my joinery methods.
However mess up, and not give this timber the respect it demands during processing and afterwards.....I'll just say you may shed tears of frustration.

Arron if you like BBX's grindstone effect on your cutting edges, try Black or Red turpintines 17-20% silica content, even the dreaded marine borer dies trying to munch on that.

[journeyman Mick]

.....Arron if you like BBX's grindstone effect on your cutting edges, try Black or Red turpintines 17-20% silica content, even the dreaded marine borer dies trying to munch on that.

Bruce,
any idea what the silica content of Brown Salwood (Acacia Celta) is? I'm machining up about half a cube at the moment for our new kitchen and it's pretty hard going. :(

Mick

[E. maculata]

Mick,
I think we call Brown Salwood, "Brown Wattle" down here, reason I know this is the father inlaw is ex logger/sawmiller from Qld. I known this tree grows from around my area right up past you into PNG, another mate who worked up there told me that (RIP Laurie). The little bit I've had to do with it, is seems mid range in density and hardness, not real hard on the gear, the turning guys used to ask us for blanks if we pushed any down. Maybe you guys grow 'em hard up there, or we have the same name for 2 different trees, wouldn't be the first time or the hundredth either. Ours is "A. aulacocarpa" and is Lyctus susceptible which leads me to believe not a great deal of silica in the cell structure, as those little blighters will die from blunt teeth. Although soil type & provenance will vary the silica content somewhat.
Sorry I couldn't be more help, might check one of Bootle's books at work tomorrow.

[E. maculata]

Actually, a random thought just ocurred to me (a very rare event I assure) the Acacias can pack alot of waste incl carbon into the truewood, this gives them some of their startling colours and may account for the wood being hard on the gear.

[journeyman Mick]

Bruce,
thanks for the quick reply. I've been assured by a DPI botanist (lived just down the road from where I got the tree) that what I've got is A. Celta, identified it by the flowers and leaves. However it seems that the common name of Brown salwood might be applied to more species. To further confuse things most locals refer to this (and one other) as "black wattle".

Mick

[GregLee]

Hi Arron,

Thanks for the detailed reply. AV515 sounds like the go then for the glue. I might try a few tests with both the AV515 and Crosslinked PVA. I'm sure I don't want to spend that much time on the glue cleanup.

By the way, my wife saw your piccies of the bedroom furniture. That is probably what convinced her of the variety. I had my heart set on a red mahogany and blackbutt mix. Now she wants something more toned down like the Brushbox. She still wants a contrast though, which was why the Vic Ash question. Maybe white mahogany? Suggestions on a good light contrast for the brushbox?

In regards timber. Thanks for the yard reference. I'll add that to the list of good timber yards to search.

I've also found another couple who have reasonable stocks of Aussie hardwoods. Ironwood at Roselle have some good stocks from demolition and salvage. Especially in flooring. Plenty of boards also.

Hardwoods Australia at Mona Vale have some excellent quality timbers in both Standard and Select grade. They have there own mill at Kempsey. I had a look at the Mona Vale yard on Saturday morning with my wife and they had some great boards around the 300mm x 45mm approx many lengths. Not sure of the price yet. Other varieties included Blackbutt, blackwood, spotted gum, Flooded Gum, Red and White Mahogany, Blue Gum, Merbau, hoop pine etc.

By the way. I didn't get a chance to go out to the market today. Stuck at the craft fair at St Ives looking at other peoples work with the family. Maybe next week. Saw some nice work at the fair. Some outdoor furniture made from Blue gum slabs. You wouldn't need to worry about anyone stealing this stuff. Two of us tried to lift one end. We couldn't even make it budge.

[GregLee]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks also for the feedback. After all these warnings I think I might just try one small project with the BBX first. Then decide whether I want to use it for the rest.

[E. maculata]

Found it.....I think,
Acacia celsa Tindale (subsp. C in Thomson 1994). This species is a rainforest tree which occurs in the wet tropics region of north Queensland and can reach 30 m in height with a straight bole up to 90 cm diameter at breast height. This species has shown excellent growth potential for reforestation in Guyana (David 1980). The area trialed in Guyana has an equatorial rainfall (mean annual rainfall 2225 mm with two months receiving less than 100 mm), remarkably constant temperatures throughout the year (mean ca 27oC) and constant high humidity. Documented as producing one of the strongest bleached kraft pulps from a range of tropical acacias tested (Clark et al. 1991) and has been used as a source of sawn timber (Boland et al. 1984). Apparently there are References in 1984 Forest Trees of Australia Nelson CSIRO didn't see it today mind you was looking for A celta . ..apparently is a subspecies of A aulacocarpa, still havn't found anything on silica content though. Now my curiosities aroused may have to find one and take a sample just to look now. :confused:

Bruce C.
"I think I'll stand over here out of harms way, nothing could get me way over here"............

[Rocker]

Greg,

You might consider the urea formaldehyde glue that Timbecon sells, rather than the foaming polyurethane. This glue is a liquid resin with a liquid hardener, which is added in a ratio of 1:8. I find it preferable to Carbatec's UF glue, which has a powder hardener with filler added. this is much more viscous and hard to spread. I find the Timbecon product, which cost $25 for a litre, is ideal for bent laminations. Clean-up is easy with a sponge wetted with water. The UF glue has a much longer working time, at least 30 minutes, than PVA. I think that, if you used acetone to wipe the surfaces first, you should not have problems, although I have no experience with brush box.

Rocker

[journeyman Mick]

Thanks for that Bruce, my log came out of a bit of suburban regrowth, 8M dead straight to where it started to fork and about 600mm dia at breast height. It was probably about 15 - 20 M high. I've seen much bigger specimens but they seem to die and get termites (or maybe the other way round?) when they mature.

Mick

[Fuzzie]

Resurrecting this thread as I want to laminate some brushbox to make thicker profiles from the 30mm stuff I have on hand.

I've tried Bunnings, Hudson's and a couple of fastener suppliers but nobody seems to carry AV Syntec product. I've googled and found a distributor in Molendinar, but they aren't open weekends.

Does anyone know where I might be able to find AV515 on a weekend?

Alternatively does anybody know if the VISE adhesive available at Bunnings is the same as AV515?

[Greg Ward]

Grows around the edge of the scrubs in N NSW and probaby Qld as well.
I've seen one left by old timber cutters, NW of Wauchope around 6' diameter, too much pipe for them in those days.... nowadays, it would have been processed.

I cut some beautiful inch brushbox boards at Mal's place on his Boutique Timbers' saw.
At 27mm, they looked wonderful.....Mal however said 'too thin' as they move a great deal when drying. Apparently they are normally cut around 30mm+ then reprocessed when dry.
After 3 months, I can see what he is talking about. The 45mm slabs around 500 wide appear OK. let me know if you want any slabs

Used some of the 40mm x 300mm wide boards to repair the cattle crush, seemed a waste which is why the inch boards were cut.... but I think they'll also end up in a cattle yard somewhere if they continue to warp.

If you want hardwood flitches or larger sections of hardwoods, he has quite a selection and can cut to size. When I was there, we cut some red mahogany 3" slabs for a 'land boat' being constructed for Pittwater Council, a copy of Capt. Phillips boat he used to explore Pittwater. I'll post more on this in the future

Regards
Greg

[Mr Brush]

AV515 is wonderful stuff - I've used it to glue all sorts of things together, including my workbench.

However, due to the 'foaming' action (you need to damp down the surfaces to be glued first btw), it wouldn't be my choice where a thin glueline is required. It might look a bit odd for laminating?

I've used Titebond III with Brushbox, and no problems so far, although most of my joints end up being solid timber to veneered board (e.g. solid edging on tables)

I'd have a good think before settling on Brushbox as your preferred timber. I made that mistake (a mix of veneered board and solid), and it really is a pain to work with in terms of tool blunting. Once I've used up the last of my Brushbox veneered board I'll try and find something with a similar colour/grain but easier to work.

However, if you're looking for an excuse to splash out on a Shelix helical cutterhead for your jointer/planer, then Brushbox is just the timber for you.....:rolleyes:

[Fuzzie]

Hi Greg,

Yes I've experienced the drying movement. I don't think I will be after any more bbx after I've used what I have on hand, unless I redo the house floor - it does make stunning flooring.

Mr Brush,

I haven't used titebond before. Does it handle much the same as ordinary PVA ? It looks like there is a distributor in Nerang, so perhaps I would'nt have to go up to Carbatec to get it.

[Mr Brush]

Titebond III can be treated much the same as any PVA.

I use it as my standard glue because its rated waterproof (which neither Original Titebond or Titebond II are), and it also gives a longer assembly time than most PVAs.

Mind you, following several really cold mornings here, I now appreciate the manufacturer's recommendation not to use it below 8 deg.C ambient........:rolleyes:

[Mr Brush]

You've come up with the perfect use for Brushbox - flooring !!

It would make a nice (and slightly sparkly) floor, although you might find that people's shoes wear down surprisingly fast......:D

I have a couple of chunks of quartersawn solid Brushbox that I'll put aside to use for soles on timber planes.

[Arron]

Have you rung A V Syntex and asked them for your nearest distributor. I expect someone could send you a couple of tubes if you dont want to travel.

AV Syntec Pty Ltd (http://www.wholesalenet.com.au/business/AV_Syntec_Pty_Ltd.htm)

Arron

[big chisel]

G`day BC here, AV used be available throug laminex inds, now i think Lincoln sentry are the go, also av is the one for mdf., hope this helps

BC

[Fuzzie]

I decided to try Titebond III. Nover and Co at Nerang carry it as well as AV515.
Project progress can bee seen in thread http://www.woodworkforums.com/f187/wip-lowline-tv-console-96082/#post1181055