Handle for the tiny spindle gouge.

[tea lady]

I bought an unhandled 5mm spindle gouge from Mcjings at the woodworkk show. (cos Carroll's was sold out by the time got there on Sunday.:doh: A lot of people must be gonna turn tiny things.:rolleyes: ) Anyway, so I made a handles for it today. My hands get very sore. I think fronm the years of doing pottery. :C So I am trying various shapes out to see how they go. I like how this one fits my hand. From what Ken has been showing me, mini tools are held up near the furl, with your finger running up the flute. Anyway, will sharpen it tomorrow on 's Tormec.:D and see how she works.:cool:

119868119869

[Frank&Earnest]

Very nice aesthetically, TL. If I am interpreting correctly the advice the ex-surgeon fellow carver has given to our group, though, it could be better to fatten the handle so that the points of your fingers are about 10-15 mm away from the palm under the thumb, and to lose the knob at the end that could transfer any vibrations straight to your carpal tunnel. I am not medically qualified and this advice is worth what it costs. :D

[tea lady]

Very nice aesthetically, TL. If I am interpreting correctly the advice the ex-surgeon fellow carver has given to our group, though, it could be better to fatten the handle so that the points of your fingers are about 10-15 mm away from the palm under the thumb, and to lose the knob at the end that could transfer any vibrations straight to your carpal tunnel. I am not medically qualified and this advice is worth what it costs. :D:think: So have you got a pic of one of yours in your hand? :)

[Frank&Earnest]

Ok, I'll make one just after dinner. I do not have anything that small, but you will get the idea. (Being so small, the forces involved won't kill you anyway...:) )

[jefferson]

Tea Lady,

Two things:

1. I forgot to thank you for your post after the Turn-on at 's (cold and dusty shed). And I also forgot to say you are on our list of "always welcome" visitors..... Thanks for the pottery too. :)

2. Now, those handles. I know you have female / gentle hands - and a deft touch - but the handle is way, way too big. IMHO.

Big tools, big handles, big cuts.

Small tools, tiny handles and tiny cuts. I would liken it to a surgeon's scappel. Why would you attach the cutting tip to a shovel handle?

I've got a few 6mm spindle gouges with very, very tiny handles. Just there to keep your hands warm. :D

We must get Ken W. to do another demo with his little tools. He doesn't even touch the handles, only the steel.

[Frank&Earnest]

Small tools, tiny handles and tiny cuts. I would liken it to a surgeon's scappel. Why would you attach the cutting tip to a shovel handle?
....
We must get Ken W. to do another demo with his little tools. He doesn't even touch the handles, only the steel.

There is some truth in what you say Jeff, but your conclusions do not necessarily follow. Let start with the scalpel. You would hold it like a pen, wouldn't you? The scalpel, and the pen, have evolved through the centuries for very precise flowing movements from the top down which require fine motor skills. If you are an old person with feeble arthritic hands, hopefully you would have given up surgery by then :D but could still get some prosthetic aid to make the pen bigger and easier to grip.

The second point: if a person does not use the handle of a tool as it is meant to be, the only logical conclusion is that the handle is not suitable for the particular task being undertaken (otherwise that person is a fool, and I do not think you wanted to suggest that. :D) Tolerating a brief inconvenience is easier than going to the trouble of designing a proper handle for the job, but TL is trying to do the right thing.

Incidentally: I do not have medical training, but I did get 100% in Ergonomics last century...:wink:

TL, to cut a long story short: you can make a ball of firm dough, squeeze it with your hand until your grip is comfortable, let it dry and then copy the shape (which normally will be very similar to what you have got, only a bit bigger :roll:. No need to extend the handle over the wrist for a small tool like this.

[Frank&Earnest]

...and, for the record, this is the 12mm square bar with "showel handle" with which I have turned the 1.1 mm finial shown in the "micro finials" thread. Note the 10-15 mm distance mentioned above, the grip is like the grip in TL's photo.

Of course, I just grip it as I would a showel handle. :D

[dai sensei]

Looks good TL. The main thing is that they suit your hand.

Here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/new-mini-turning-chisels-97428/) are mine, similar shape, and if you scroll down there is a photo of how it fits in my hand.

[jefferson]

There is some truth in what you say Jeff, but your conclusions do not necessarily follow. Let start with the scalpel. You would hold it like a pen, wouldn't you? The scalpel, and the pen, have evolved through the centuries for very precise flowing movements from the top down which require fine motor skills. If you are an old person with feeble arthritic hands, hopefully you would have given up surgery by then :D but could still get some prosthetic aid to make the pen bigger and easier to grip.

The second point: if a person does not use the handle of a tool as it is meant to be, the only logical conclusion is that the handle is not suitable for the particular task being undertaken (otherwise that person is a fool, and I do not think you wanted to suggest that. :D) Tolerating a brief inconvenience is easier than going to the trouble of designing a proper handle for the job, but TL is trying to do the right thing.

Incidentally: I do not have medical training, but I did get 100% in Ergonomics last century...:wink:

TL, to cut a long story short: you can make a ball of firm dough, squeeze it with your hand until your grip is comfortable, let it dry and then copy the shape (which normally will be very similar to what you have got, only a bit bigger :roll:. No need to extend the handle over the wrist for a small tool like this.

F & E,

We probably will agree to disagree. :wink: Again, but never mind.

When you truly learn to cut - and not scrape - please post a pic of the finish you get "off the tool". (I don't know why, but you and I have some issues....).

If I was using a scalpel, it would not be held as a pen. I've "skun" too many "critters" to know that there is a balance between dexterity and actually doing it, time after time. Think of skinning a hundred redfin or flathead or a deer - sure, more control with the knife held as a pen - but it's not sustainable. I think that is your argument.

Turning is a little different, as you have (I think) correctly pointed out. Particularly with a 6mm spindle gouge that is truly aggressive in profile. Think final cuts.

Here, with a tiny gouge, we are talking about fine detail, discs, finials etc. Though I may be wrong.... That's why they call me the Little Grasshopper.... :D A term of endearment I hope.

Tea Lady had a "quickie" with Ken W down at 's place a few weeks back. And I think she got a lot from the "lesson". TL has fine hands, no question. Her tools are just too big, same with her handles. And, no disrespect intended AM, her equipment is not overly well suited to finials etc. (I've seen TL's "finial" or porcupine box and there is not one disc. There will be next time, I'm sure.)

All I know is this:

- the best three woodturners I know (my masters, , Ken W. and more lately Vic Wood) all do it differently - at least in some respects. And they all say, subject to some safety caveats and observance of "golden rules", there is no "right" way;

- the WWW (Ken Wraight, Weird & Wonderful) is apparently "world-class". I wouldn't (objectively) know - others on WOW have said it - but I've been invited into his house and have seen what he turns. And I've seen him on the lathe and he (and ) have given me lessons. And the WWW uses tiny tools with tiny handles. But what does he know?

- all 3 Masters "cut" (and sometimes scrape) and "move" the tool with the body. On big stuff and small. Women - like Cindy Drozda - do it differently. And Tea Lady too. A "touch" issue. (As an aside, if you ever get the chance to watch VW use his radical scraper, please pay attention. At 70, Vic has the touch of a lady... )

- if I was to use a scalpel on a "final" cut, it would probably be in the pen-hold on flesh but not on wood. And I would not have weight of TL's handle fighting against me.

So.... get out into the shed tomorrow. With your ergonomic and heavy handles and post some pics of some nice discs.

I'll do the same. (Ken W. likes to deal in factions of a millimetre but we do not)

What say we aim for a series of discs out of say a piece of hardwood 20mm thick?

Spaced as you see fit.

With YOUR tools.

I will stuff up a few blanks in the morning, but I await your offerings..... :D:D

[tea lady]

Oh-oh! Finials at ten paces. :doh::C:D

I haven't turned anything with this new handled thing yet. Was waiting for the polly to dry. And it definitely needs a sharpen. So will have a go tomorrow. After using Kens detail gouge at the turn fest I turned the handle kinda how I remembered that one was, [plus the bits I felt were missing. My theory with the bigger handle was similar to why a bigger lathe is better for turning tiny finials. The extra weight will dampen vibration. and anyway. just cos you are turning a small thing doesn't mean your hands shrink. :rolleyes:

Will report back tomorrow after the test turn. :cool: :salute:

[Frank&Earnest]

Jeff, I have absolutely no issue with you, I am sorry you got that impression. It was not my intention to offend you in any way and do not remember any previous occurrence that could have been taken that way, as you suggest.

I do not see how your long post helps TL in any way. You have not presented a contrary argument to my points that can be debated in a useful manner in the forum. To avoid further hijacking this thread, if you have an issue with me, please use a personal message.

Whether I "cut" or "scrape" is a matter of semantics. I do not see why you should be disparaging about one method or the other. I am happy to accept your challenge to produce "discs" but I do not understand what you mean. What would you call the 0.2 mm protuberance under the "onion" of the finial? Again, we can sort this out among ourselves. Similarly, If you are happy to produce a finial like the one I did, we can exchange them by mail so we can both appreciate the other's technique and results.

[artme]

An interesting discussion. I would not consider myself a good or experienced enough turner to venture much of an opinion

I will, however, make these observations:

# When I first started turning I bought some Hamlet tools. I adjusted myself to the handle.

# Later I bought unhandled tools and turned handles to a design from a fellow experienced turner. I adjusted myself to these handles.

# I bought a small, unhandled parting tool. The handle I made was short because the tool was short. I learned to use this.

# I have noticed that different grinds on bowl gouges will make me adjust my grip on the handle.


It seems there are so many variables that we take into account when turning that there is little point in some of the esoteric argument that have been going on for years.

Remember, it was once said of Don Bradman " He will never do well in England".

[TTIT]

Yup - everything ArtMe said - right down to the Hamlet tools :U:2tsup:
The only handle I could never get used to was on a Henry Taylor bowl gouge from my Dad's kit - he had cut 4" or 5" off it 'cos he said it used to get in the way for his style of turning - way too short for me that way :C

[TTIT]

....but just as an after-thought, I've often wondered if making them much thicker would help avoid aggravating the old tennis-elbow :shrug: (note: I've never played bloody tennis either :~ )

TL - can we see a close up of the tip once you sharpen it ??? I've only used my 5mm once or twice and would like to see how they should look.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Having turned both a lá Cliffy and otherwise, I've found that it doesn't really make much difference to me for the smaller tools.

I find I choke the shaft, with the ferrule in my palm. Any handle, of whatever shape, is mostly swinging around under my wrist! :rolleyes:

For some cuts this weight can be a bit of a nuisance, on desert woods for example, where it's possible to get razor-thin and -crisp results. But for those cuts I'd rather be doing without a handle altogether. I'm not using it, after all. :wink:

For other cuts, that weight hanging under my wrist is handy... like when roughing down a finial or lace bobbin, especially when using coarser grained timbers. Then the extra bulk acts as a damper that "smooths out the ride," helping to prevent catches, etc. (I wish the same held true true as the size of the job and the tool scales up, but alack, alas...)

And, of course, when not doing fiddly fine stuff, there are the odd occasions when I want to be able to use the handle in... 'normal' mode. eg. Putting fine detail on a much larger piece where I can't bring up the toolrest close.

All in all, when I turn handles for this size of tool, I go for something very much like TL's. :2tsup:

[jefferson]

Having turned both a lá Cliffy and otherwise, I've found that it doesn't really make much difference to me for the smaller tools.

I find I choke the shaft, with the ferrule in my palm. Any handle, of whatever shape, is mostly swinging around under my wrist! :rolleyes:

For some cuts this weight can be a bit of a nuisance, on desert woods for example, where it's possible to get razor-thin and -crisp results. But for those cuts I'd rather be doing without a handle altogether. I'm not using it, after all. :wink:

For other cuts, that weight hanging under my wrist is handy... like when roughing down a finial or lace bobbin, especially when using coarser grained timbers. Then the extra bulk acts as a damper that "smooths out the ride," helping to prevent catches, etc.



This was the point I was trying to make (not very well.)

Sorry if I hijacked the thread. Everyone does it differently, same with preferences for handles.

F & E - I misread what you saying, my public apologies. OK?

[Frank&Earnest]

This was the point I was trying to make (not very well.)

Sorry if I hijacked the thread. Everyone does it differently, same with preferences for handles.

F & E - I misread what you saying, my public apologies. OK?

No problem Jeff, I always try to make only constructive criticism but sometimes I might come out a bit too abrasive. We can still be friends. :)

BTW, FWIW, I also do not use a handle on my homemade blades (or are they scrapers? :wink: ) for fine details... the small disk was cut with just a reshaped spade drill bit. I don't have razor blades handy because I do not shave and I am not good enough yet to use a 4" nail like TTIT and Skew. :p

[jefferson]

F & E,

:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup: No worries here I assure you. Again, apologies. I just misread it.

Yes, I am trying to make a scraper/cutter too out of 3 inch concrete nails. They tell me to grind the head flat is the way to go for making captive rings. I'll do a quick and dirty handle for that one!

[tea lady]

Yes, I am trying to make a scraper/cutter too out of 3 inch concrete nails. They tell me to grind the head flat is the way to go for making captive rings. I'll do a quick and dirty handle for that one!:think: Oh, Cool. Might have a go myself.:cool:


....but just as an after-thought, I've often wondered if making them much thicker would help avoid aggravating the old tennis-elbow :shrug: (note: I've never played bloody tennis either :~ ) I dunno about thicker. They gotta be "just right: :shrug:

TL - can we see a close up of the tip once you sharpen it ??? I've only used my 5mm once or twice and would like to see how they should look.:C You can't rely on ME to know how they go. But I will when I do. Just so we can keep this can o' worms going. :D

[artme]

When I caught up with Claude in Verona I was mighty impressed by his small detailed work, especially the smallest captive rings I have ever seen.

When I asked him about tools he produced a dental probe!!!:o


Was reminded of this today while at the dentist.:oo:

[oldiephred]

I find that making handles is like picking friends. One tends to select what feels right for their particular needs. I really don't think others can define or select what is best for a given hand shape and/or physical condition. IMHO of course.

[Frank&Earnest]

Yes, I am trying to make a scraper/cutter too out of 3 inch concrete nails. They tell me to grind the head flat is the way to go for making captive rings. I'll do a quick and dirty handle for that one!

This is my attempt Jeff. Tried the T section but was too big for the tiny ring on the 7 goblets for 5 cents, so made one left and one right. It won't affect the postage.:wink:

The handle is my carved ergonomic special. :D

[oldiephred]

TEA LADY: I like the shape of your handle and agree that it is a "personal thing" and not something that can be made to satisfy everyone. If it works well for you --- great. I have found that with small tools like that it helps to drill from the back end of the handle and insert some weight. The weight I like best is lead shot from shotgun shells. Use a temporary plug until a desired weight is attained. The loose shot helps dampen the vibraton.
Looking forward to seeing the results of your use of that tool.:2tsup:

[hughie]

....but just as an after-thought, I've often wondered if making them much thicker would help avoid aggravating the old tennis-elbow :shrug: (note: I've never played bloody tennis either :~ )


Maybe, I pulled a muscle in the same region and the quack told it was tennis elbow. What I found was the larger diameter was helpful to some extent. Most of mine have a biggish dia in one spot of around 1.25" or 32mm anyway.

The most helpful method I found was to use a relaxed grip on the handle. This tends to lessen the pressure up that end of arm.

I've seen a few turners use the white knuckle grip, too tiring for me and definitely not a goer with elbow probs

[TTIT]

....................I've seen a few turners use the white knuckle grip, too tiring for me and definitely not a goer with elbow probsCan't seem to break myself of the habit - just start tightening the grip as I concentrate more - maybe a few beers first eh!?!?! :;:U

[Cliff Rogers]

... public apologies....
You can take him anywhere twice... the 2nd time to apologise..... :D
It is a bit of a worry when you have to apoligise to the public Jeff. :p

[joe greiner]

Relaxed grip works best with billiard cues, too.

Cheers,
Joe