PDA

View Full Version : Honing tools on bench grinder



Tiger
23rd Oct 2009, 02:03 PM
At the Wood show in Melbourne last week, I noticed Guilio Marcolongo using a type of cloth wheel to quickly restore the edge on his tools. He swore by it and said it didn't cost too much. Does anyone know what sort of wheel it was? It was connected by a tapered spindle onto a 6 inch grinder and worked quite well as after a quick hit on the grinder it left a nice finish. If you have a wheel connected up to your grinder, are you satisfied with the results?

Jim Carroll
23rd Oct 2009, 02:40 PM
Yes they are a stiched mop

You use a tapered mandrel on the end of your bench grinder and screw the mop onto this.

Apply some green rouge and polish to your hearts content, also good for carving tools etc.

Tiger
23rd Oct 2009, 03:00 PM
Thanks, Jim. What are these mops made of? Can you get one that will do woodturning and woodcarving as I thought you needed a softer wheel in order to do the carving chisels as they would give a bit and adjust to the contour of the chisels.

Jim Carroll
23rd Oct 2009, 05:26 PM
They are made from calico and stitched all the way round .

You take of the first row of stitching which makes it more pliable and the contours of the gouges can then be polished easier.

Yes we have in stock just not on the web site as yet.

Tiger
24th Oct 2009, 01:04 PM
Thanks again Jim. I'm getting a little confused with all the wheels out there. There are cotton, wool, felt, leather etc. Do any of the wheels have advantages over others? Are they longer lasting? Would appreciate any links or guidance.

brendan stemp
24th Oct 2009, 01:18 PM
All you need is the calico mop that Jim has mentioned and the honing rouge and you will be right. I saw Guilio use a disc of MDF with honing rouge on it and this worked well. Leather is also fine. Some mops however are more for buffing your work than honing tools. I use the honing mop on my carving chisels and the difference it makes is remarkable but I no longer use it on my turning tools. I just don't find it makes that much difference with general woodturning and if you are not careful you can hone the edge of your tool blunt. Its worth doing if you are doing very fine work. The other point worth mentioning (and I mention this because I know people who have made this mistake including myself!) DO NOT present the chisel to the honing mop the same way you would a chisel to a grinding wheel. It will dig in badly. The tool's edge must be facing the same way as the rotation of the mop. And the mop can make the grinder shake a bit more than it might otherwise.

brendan stemp
24th Oct 2009, 01:19 PM
Oh, by the way, the mop I use for honing is felt.

Tiger
24th Oct 2009, 01:34 PM
Thanks, Brendan, it looks like I'll probably need the 2 wheels which is okay, I think my grinder can handle the 2 wheels, and I too have had that nice dig-in as a result of presenting the tool the wrong way :B.

Tiger
25th Oct 2009, 08:32 AM
Actually had a go at a friend's place yesterday with a felt wheel. I'd have to say that it did little for the woodturning tool. Anything more than a quick swipe seemed to dull the tool. Obviously there's a bit more skill involved than what I thought. Guilio made touching up on thsi wheel look easy, but I think correct angle presentation is critical. Guess it becomes easier with practice.

rsser
25th Oct 2009, 09:03 AM
Yeah, the risk is dubbing the edge.

If you've dry ground towards the edge the burr can be quite hard and takes a bit of care to remove. If you've wet ground away from the edge the burr is quite flaky and comes off quickly.

brendan stemp
25th Oct 2009, 09:32 AM
What is "dubbing" Ern?

rsser
25th Oct 2009, 10:19 AM
Brendan: as you pointed out, you can lose the edge if you run the wheel over the point, so you get a rounded or dubbed edge.

Just to add: one of the pluses about honing gouge flutes is to get any machining marks out. There's no point getting a polished bevel if the flute looks like tram tracks.

brendan stemp
25th Oct 2009, 10:29 AM
Ern you articulate my thoughts much better than I do. I agree fully. The honing I did with carving tools was on an edge sharpened by hand with a 3200 (I think that's the right grit)wet stone so the 'tram tracks' were eliminated. So, if one is only using an 80grit white stone (or even 120 grit) on their turning tools before honing then one must question the worth of honing.

gtwilkins
25th Oct 2009, 11:02 AM
I have been honing the edge of gouges etc between grinding with a rubberized diamond wheel from:

Matz Abrasives (http://www.abrasivematz.com/)

Works great for a touch up and not that expensive, don't know if you can get them in your neck of the woods but worth checking into.

Trevor

issatree
25th Oct 2009, 11:22 AM
Hi Tiger,
Yes I agree with all that has been said. Although I do Hone my Skew Chisels now & again.
I have seen Carvers stand behind their Grinders with the Green Rouge on the Wheel/Mop, & you are able to hone the Carving Chisel On the Top Of The Wheel.
Therefore you can see much easier, what you are doing.
A lot of carvers use the Small Grinder with 4in / 100mm. Mops.
They are not as strong, power wise, so you get to learn not to press to hard or the little Grinder stops.
They get Great Results..
Regards,
issatree.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

Ozkaban
26th Oct 2009, 08:57 AM
I've just borrowed a small 5" grinder with a couple of calico wheels (one loose and one stitched on the one side of the grinder) and a felt wheel on the other side. It was used for carving chisels, and I was interested to see how it helped the inside of the flutes on turning gouges. The water slipstone I have works ok on the shallower flutes, but isn't narrow enough to get right into the flutes on my bowl gouges.

You're all right - any more than a quick swipe and the edge is all gone. Obviously my technique is not right, but I found that using an 80 grit wheel then a slipstone gave a very sharp edge, but the buffing wheel destroyed it. I think the problem may be that to get some buffing action on the harder HSS steel, I pushed it into the wheel too far so the fibres are dragged across the cutting edge as they go past, ruining the cutting angle. Dunno if this is right, but it seems like it.

It worked a treat on the skew though. Really gave it a nice edge.

Maybe I should use the wheels *before* grinding so the inside of the flute is nicely polished and free of machining marks (as a once off action on the new chisel). Grinding would then create a burr but a quick wipe with a slipstone would remove this. Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Dave

rsser
26th Oct 2009, 09:13 AM
Yeah, if the flute has machining marks, polishing them out must help to some extent.

As for honing ... depends on the purpose. I see some turners doing it just to remove the burr which may help too. But doing it for the same reason as darksiders hone bench chisels (eg. up to 6000 grit), I'm not so sure that a high polish is worth the effort. At the rate of cutting that turners use a very keen edge is going to go pretty quickly.

As for the honing wheel, I think you're right Dave. If the fibres compress and then spring back when released they'll curve round the tool edge and round it off. So harder materials like leather or MDF would be better.

There's an article in the current AWR by Richard Raffan, in which he points out this dubbing over danger and says he hones gouges rarely and skews only occasionally.

Certainly the dubbing over risk could be reduced by using a jig such as wet grinders mount, and wet grinders come with leather honing wheels. I'm waiting on a profiled wheel for the Scheppach just to have a play.

hughie
26th Oct 2009, 11:55 AM
Yeah, if the flute has machining marks, polishing them out must help to some extent.
It will help as you will get a finer edge



As for honing ... depends on the purpose. I see some turners doing it just to remove the burr which may help too. But doing it for the same reason as darksiders hone bench chisels (eg. up to 6000 grit), I'm not so sure that a high polish is worth the effort. At the rate of cutting that turners use a very keen edge is going to go pretty quickly.
Not so sure of the merit of all this extra work. I often find the burr helps rather than hinders


As for the honing wheel, I think you're right Dave. If the fibres compress and then spring back when released they'll curve round the tool edge and round it off. So harder materials like leather or MDF would be better.
yep totally agree, its not for the shaky handed this sort of thing and harder materials are the go

Fine edges are fine for final cuts especially on troublesome timbers. But the standard grind off your 80grit wheel will do in most cases.
A good example of this is the rise in the use of TCT or tungsten tips. Due to the grain structure you can not get a fine edge like HSS and yet they cut well.

NeilS
26th Oct 2009, 01:25 PM
I'm using both felt and MDF with green buffing compound, mostly for carving tools and knives, but for woodturning they do a quick job of putting a final polish on flutes and the negative rake bevel of scrapers.

I find the MDF (or any fine grained wood) wheels are less inclined to 'dubb over' than the softer felt wheels. They are quickly made and can be turned to match the various flute profiles of your gouges, etc.

The trick in using them is to present the surface to be honed at a right angle to the radius of the wheel (Viz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIRCLE_LINES.svg)) and to keep the cutting edge as close as possible to that radius. Not that I always get it right freehand every time. A jig would definitely help.

Have never bothered buffing any of my turning tools after grinding.

Ozkaban
26th Oct 2009, 01:48 PM
I'm using both felt and MDF with green buffing compound, mostly for carving tools and knives, but for woodturning they do a quick job of putting a final polish on flutes and the negative rake bevel of scrapers.

I find the MDF (or any fine grained wood) wheels are less inclined to 'dubb over' than the softer felt wheels. They are quickly made and can be turned to match the various flute profiles of your gouges, etc.

The trick in using them is to present the surface to be honed at a right angle to the radius of the wheel (Viz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIRCLE_LINES.svg)) and to keep the cutting edge as close as possible to that radius. Not that I always get it right freehand every time. A jig would definitely help.

Have never bothered buffing any of my turning tools after grinding.

That seems to be the effect I'm after. I'll try making the MDF disk to suit the profiles of the gouges in question...

Thanks,
Dave

rsser
26th Oct 2009, 06:12 PM
Of all the tools I'd say the scraper is the best candidate for honing.

A turning guru down here in Mexico reckons that the burr should be off for hard and for soft timbers.

Wondering about this my guess is that hard ones get chipped by the burr and soft ones get their fibres ripped out rather than cut.

A micro image of the edge of a scraper shows the burr as something like a mangled saw edge.

Yes it cuts, but how cleanly?

Some tests have been on the gunna do list for a while. Digitus extractum.

jefferson
26th Oct 2009, 10:43 PM
Not eactly sure that I agree with all that has been said here. I routinely test a chisel by shaving my right forearm. If the chisel won't do that, I've done something wrong.

If you polish one edge of a chisel - say a scraper - to a mirror edge, you shouldn't touch it again unless you want to remove the burr after sharpening the bevel.

And if you want to polish the bevel itself, you need at least the same level of accuracy you had when making that bevel. Not even the Tormek does that 100% accurately. Handheld on some buffing wheel..... I have serious doubts.

Yes, get a mirror finish on one side. But if you get the bevel side right, be very careful on the opposing face.

and Ken argue on this very point almost to the point of heat. Thus, I go one way for a week or so, then revert to the other. :D:D:D

Seems to make little difference to me - as Brendan and Ern have already said, so long as you remove the tram-tracks. Or the black stuff on all P & N tools.

A Scotchbrite wheel on the grinder is great for that. (Thanks Vic Wood).

Ozkaban
27th Oct 2009, 09:23 AM
Seems to make little difference to me - as Brendan and Ern have already said, so long as you remove the tram-tracks. Or the black stuff on all P & N tools.

A Scotchbrite wheel on the grinder is great for that. (Thanks Vic Wood).

An interesting thought! Where does one find one of those???

Cheers,
Dave

rsser
27th Oct 2009, 09:41 AM
Dave, earlier you mentioned the prob of slipstones not being narrow enough to get into the flute of small gouges. There's a US source of narrow-edge waterstones that Frank (effgee) found. I think they were about $45 AUD shipped.

If interested I'll try and find the website.

Ozkaban
27th Oct 2009, 09:50 AM
Dave, earlier you mentioned the prob of slipstones not being narrow enough to get into the flute of small gouges. There's a US source of narrow-edge waterstones that Frank (effgee) found. I think they were about $45 AUD shipped.

If interested I'll try and find the website.

Thanks Ern. I've found some locally that were very small - sort of the size of a credit card. Didn't think they were worth the money being asked at the time but maybe that was a mistake (can't remember where, now!). From my playing with the 3 different wheels, the water stones do provide the best result so far, so unless I can improve my technique with the wheels somewhat I'll probably try and track some of the small stones down.

cheers,
Dave

rsser
27th Oct 2009, 10:11 AM
No worries.

Found the source:

Premium Japanese Sharpening Stones Set at WoodCraftPlans.com (http://www.woodcraftplans.com/osc/premium-japanese-sharpening-stones-p-920.html)

Ozkaban
27th Oct 2009, 10:19 AM
Thanks Ern. They look very good.

cheers,
Dave

Tiger
27th Oct 2009, 10:46 AM
Thanks to all those that contributed to the post, Ern, Dave, Hughie, Issatree, Jefferson and others. I've done a bit more experimenting. The mop works well for carving tools, it gives a mirror finish and it does so fairly quickly. The mop also works fine for bench chisels. I can now take damaged chisels to razor-sharp in a few minutes using the grinder and the mop. I am not making significant progress with the woodturning tools, i.e. it's a bit hit and miss, sometimes I get it right, sometimes a dub the edge and it's back to the grinder.

Regarding the honing of woodturning tools, I believe it still has a place on the final cut(s) as it will save me at least a couple of grits of sandpaper.

NeilS
27th Oct 2009, 12:32 PM
Also, if you need a finer 'grind' than you can get off a bench grinder, don't forget fine grade diamond plates. No use for flutes, but handy for putting a finer edge on a bevel than 80 or 120 grit bench grinder stones will provide, if that is what you like. Especially good for re-establishing the burr on scrapers without having to leave the lathe, i.e., if you are inclined to keep the burr....:U.

I know this is getting away from honing on the bench grinder, but a diamond bit (like those used on chainsaw teeth) in a dremel type tool is also handy for quickly re-touching the edge on oland type tips and hooks without leaving the lathe.


.....

jefferson
27th Oct 2009, 02:26 PM
An interesting thought! Where does one find one of those???

Cheers,
Dave

I got mine from Vic Wood. No idea what I paid for it, but it sure saved me a lot of time sanding out the black stuff.

I'll check with Vic and post back.

You really don't need one, as it's a one-off process - assuming you have a mate with one. A bit isolated up here, so I bought one.

Ozkaban
27th Oct 2009, 02:43 PM
I got mine from Vic Wood. No idea what I paid for it, but it sure saved me a lot of time sanding out the black stuff.

I'll check with Vic and post back.

You really don't need one, as it's a one-off process - assuming you have a mate with one. A bit isolated up here, so I bought one.

Cool, thanks. I might play with an mdf disk as a once off polish. Could do 2-3 profiles on the one (wide enough) disk...

Cheers,
Dave

Tiger
27th Oct 2009, 03:02 PM
Good tip Neil about the fine diamond stone. I'm all for a quick hone rather than walking to the grinder and having to turn it on and then walk back to the lathe.

NeilS
27th Oct 2009, 08:36 PM
Could do 2-3 profiles on the one (wide enough) disk...



Yep, and just glue extra pices on as required.

.....

rsser
27th Oct 2009, 09:02 PM
Can lathe mount too: disc on mandrel in Jacobs chuck, or real wood, between centres, and turn the profiles your tools have.

Ozkaban
28th Oct 2009, 09:45 AM
Can lathe mount too: disc on mandrel in Jacobs chuck, or real wood, between centres, and turn the profiles your tools have.

I actually just had this odd thought. What if you could mount the the sharpening/honing wheel on the outboard attachment. The speeds would be about right and you wouldn't even need to leave the lathe to sharpen :think: Maybe it's totally dodgy though :shrug:

Cheers,
Dave

rsser
27th Nov 2009, 10:55 AM
Dave, earlier you mentioned the prob of slipstones not being narrow enough to get into the flute of small gouges. There's a US source of narrow-edge waterstones that Frank (effgee) found. I think they were about $45 AUD shipped.

If interested I'll try and find the website.

Have found a local source of fine-edge Norton slipstones:

Sharpening Stones | The Sandpaper Man (http://www.thesandpaperman.com.au/sharpening-stones/)

hughie
27th Nov 2009, 12:19 PM
to get a good variety of slip stones look for an Engineering supply Co

Ozkaban
27th Nov 2009, 05:29 PM
Have found a local source of fine-edge Norton slipstones:

Sharpening Stones | The Sandpaper Man (http://www.thesandpaperman.com.au/sharpening-stones/)

Thanks Ern. Very useful!


to get a good variety of slip stones look for an Engineering supply Co
Not a bad idea either.

Cheers,
Dave

Frank&Earnest
30th Nov 2009, 12:17 PM
I was thinking of starting a thread in sharpening, but while we are on topic...

I have finally found the time to give a good overhaul to my "viking grinder" that had been gathering cobwebs for umpteen years. I managed to dress the 10" stone wheel with a T bar diamond dresser, but I noticed that it is not completely round. Should I "turn" it starting from the side, as for metalworking?

To me the "viking grinder" looks like a Tormek, are there any differences in the way it should be used? I have seen from the photo of the Tormek in the ads that the plane blade to be ground is set on top, so that the wheel turns away from the edge, not against it. Should chisels also be ground this way? If so, why is the tool rest in front? Last time I used it as a normal grinder, with awful results (hence the cobwebs).

Out of left field: would it sharpen TC cutters?:D

Any advice greatly appreciated.

hughie
30th Nov 2009, 12:20 PM
Out of left field: would it sharpen TC cutters?:D


most likely not an if it did it would be at the expense of the current wheel, you need a silicon carbide wheel generally green colour

rsser
30th Nov 2009, 12:24 PM
Hi F&E,

Be interested in how you get on with the Viking.

With the Scheppach and Tormek the tool can be placed on top pointing down with the wheel coming towards the edge for max steel removal, or horizontally from the 'back' with the wheel going away from the edge. Less steel removal. Most applications do it this way; do it the former way if eg. reshaping a big tool.

Not sure about how it would go with TC. Folk talk about a green dry grind wheel or a diamond hone for that.

Frank&Earnest
30th Nov 2009, 12:28 PM
most likely not an if it did it would be at the expense of the current wheel, you need a silicon carbide wheel generally green colour

Yes, I agree with you, but I was told "the softer the wheel the better" (just by the shop assistant when I bought the green wheel, no pretence of expertise) and I thought to just throw this open to see if anybody had more reliable info.

Frank&Earnest
30th Nov 2009, 12:35 PM
Thanks Ern. Any suggestions on the need/method of rounding the wheel?

jefferson
30th Nov 2009, 01:07 PM
Frank, the new black stone for the Tormek apparently will sharpen TC. I haven't tried yet though as I still wearing my grey stone out.

If your grinder has a bar on it, you should be able to flatten it using the tormek jig if the bars are the same diameter.

Frank&Earnest
30th Nov 2009, 01:41 PM
I actually just had this odd thought. What if you could mount the the sharpening/honing wheel on the outboard attachment. The speeds would be about right and you wouldn't even need to leave the lathe to sharpen :think: Maybe it's totally dodgy though :shrug:

Cheers,
Dave

Maybe it is dodgy, because something similar was suggested in the users manual of the old Porsche lathe (the equivalent of the recent $50 GMC lathe :D ) but I can not see why it should not work.

rsser
30th Nov 2009, 03:22 PM
F&E, the only idea re your query that I can offer, other than your own, is to keep at it for long enough til it does round it.

The T-bar dresser as you would know is designed for wheels that run at dry grinder speed, which is a darn sight faster than whetstone speeds.

And BTW, with the whetstones you have to press heavily at the tip of the tool when the wheel is turning away from it. You may have to deal with the flex in the platform arms on the Viking if memory serves about its construction. Alternatively, deliberately groove your wheel with a single point diamond dresser.

Afterthought: maybe two errors will still give a good result. Out of round wheel (tho not too much so) + flex in platform arms = tool tip follows the wheel.

rsser
30th Nov 2009, 03:31 PM
Maybe it is dodgy, because something similar was suggested in the users manual of the old Porsche lathe (the equivalent of the recent $50 GMC lathe :D ) but I can not see why it should not work.

I think Sorby offer a platform to go into the banjo so that you can hone tools against a faceplate disc with PSA abrasive on it. Wouldn't be hard to make your own, adding a slot for a cheap mitre gauge.

Frank&Earnest
30th Nov 2009, 03:56 PM
F&E, the only idea re your query that I can offer, other than your own, is to keep at it for long enough til it does round it.

The T-bar dresser as you would know is designed for wheels that run at dry grinder speed, which is a darn sight faster than whetstone speeds.

And BTW, with the whetstones you have to press heavily at the tip of the tool when the wheel is turning away from it. You may have to deal with the flex in the platform arms on the Viking if memory serves about its construction. Alternatively, deliberately groove your wheel with a single point diamond dresser.

Afterthought: maybe two errors will still give a good result. Out of round wheel (tho not too much so) + flex in platform arms = tool tip follows the wheel.

Thanks, your afterthought confirms my gut feeling that when hand holding the tool the out of round would not matter because of the constant pressure (the effect of the continuously changing angle should be rather immaterial, I would guess). Rounding the wheel would become relevant only if a jig is to be used, and then the flex might even be enough. I'll use this as the default position. :)

I'll go and fill her up with water. I might even feel confident enough to sharpen your microgouges, Jeff :D

jefferson
30th Nov 2009, 04:03 PM
I'll go and fill her up with water. I might even feel confident enough to sharpen your microgouges, Jeff :D

Yep, Frank, they don't stay sharp for long do they on the hard stuff. The particularly aggressive one I sent over is a Ken W design, not mine. (Just fessing up.)