Eureka Problem - mis measure? and how to fix

[Martin2121]

Hi all. I've encountered a problem with the Eureka that I recall someone else having but I can't find the thread:?. The stitching has been going great so far (too well I think) but now that I reach the pointy bits there is no way that the top panels will marry up with the bilge panels. Any recommendations?

Thanks.

[m2c1Iw]

More pics may hlep identify the problem. I had a similar issue but not as severe as shown in your pic. Still ended up with about a 6mm difference in length between the two panels but a bit of trimming and sanding will fix it.

The seam at the bilge panel shortens the more curve there is in the bilge to side panel, if that makes sense.

So stitch things up loosely then start pushing the seams outwards and see what happens, look carefully at both the seams and gunwhale curves to make sure things are fair you may needs to prop the panels out in spots using small sticks or what ever to get the panels sitting nicely.

Good luck
Mike

[Martin2121]

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the prompt reply. Ill try a few things over coming days. Have to go to work now. More pics attached.

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

If it is still as set up in your last picture in the set above then there is no problem.

stitch the bottom section to the top using the stitch holes each side of the buttstrap join in the middle to pull it out to full width. Make those a little bit tight to make sure the buttstraps stay aligned while you do the assembly.

Work evenly towards the ends putting in about 3 stitches at a time before doing the same with the other side and other end. So the whole thing progresses at the same time.

With stitch and glue ... it is almost a "leap of faith" boatbuilding method!

I expect the extra length to disappear in short order.

If it is already fully stitched and there is that discrepancy then there is a cutting or measuring error somewhere, but we can work out the alternatives if that is the case.

MIK

[Martin2121]

Thanks Mik, appreciate the help and I'll let you know how I get on.

Marty.

[Daddles]

Thanks Mik, appreciate the help and I'll let you know how I get on.

Marty.

We want photos of the ashes after the attempt :rolleyes:

Richard :D

[Martin2121]

Stand back then, I've got the match lit. After the earlier post when I just assumed that the panels weren't going to line up I attacked it today with a positive frame of mind and just kept stitching as Mik suggested. Getting towards the ends I could see that it was not as bad as I earlier thought but there was still no way they were going to join correctly. And I'm damned sure I measured properly when marking out. I released the stitches at the end of the top panels as per the photo then completed stitching the top to the bilge panels. The result is as you can see......:((. Don't know what I've done wrong but I have half a plan in my head to fix it. Any suggestions are welcome. I'm thinking of leaving it as is and making up small pieces to finish the top panels off to where they should meet the bilges, epoxying everything together and no one should be the wiser. I was going to paint the outside anyhow. Other than my stuff up the whole thing has gone together easily and I think it has nice lines.

[Colin62]

Is it worth making up a solid piece (not ply) to fit in the gap? The edges are pretty straight, and it won't weigh much.

Colin

[honkongphoie]

Is it worth making up a solid piece (not ply) to fit in the gap? The edges are pretty straight, and it won't weigh much.

Colin

thats what i was thinking when i looked at this thread yesterday, make up a stem piece out of some scrap wood and poxy it in, job done:2tsup:

failing that trim back to lower panels at the bow to suit, but just trim a little at a time because if you just draw a line down from the top panel now and cut when you pull them in together they will then be to short:doh:

alternatively just wait to see MIK has to offer in way of a fix.

[honkongphoie]

one other thing, you have got the panels on the correct way around i.e bow upper to bow lower panels and not bow upper to stern lower panels

don't know if that would make a difference just a thought and easily done

[m2c1Iw]

We want photos of the ashes after the attempt :rolleyes:


:D You can always rely on Daddles for really useful suggestions. :rolleyes:


Stand back then, I've got the match lit. After the earlier post when I just assumed that the panels weren't going to line up I attacked it today with a positive frame of mind and just kept stitching as Mik suggested. Getting towards the ends I could see that it was not as bad as I earlier thought but there was still no way they were going to join correctly. And I'm damned sure I measured properly when marking out. I released the stitches at the end of the top panels as per the photo then completed stitching the top to the bilge panels. The result is as you can see......:((. Don't know what I've done wrong but I have half a plan in my head to fix it. Any suggestions are welcome. I'm thinking of leaving it as is and making up small pieces to finish the top panels off to where they should meet the bilges, epoxying everything together and no one should be the wiser. I was going to paint the outside anyhow. Other than my stuff up the whole thing has gone together easily and I think it has nice lines.

What thickness ply are you using?

To me it still looks like there is not enough curve in the bilge panel which pulls the stem back if you know what I mean.

This is what I ended up with and I to think I got the measurements correct. So I think we should both go and buy new tapes :D
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/eureka-155-adelaide-103372/index3.html#post1023073

Anyway stitch it up best you can and either fill it with pox or cut a wood filler piece no body will know the difference when it's painted.

Mike

[Daddles]

one other thing, you have got the panels on the correct way around i.e bow upper to bow lower panels and not bow upper to stern lower panels

don't know if that would make a difference just a thought and easily done

You're not thinking of that daft git who built his Rowing Skiff sides upside down are you :B

Before you do anything mate, check a few measurements to see if you can indentify where the blue is ... if indeed there is one. The simple solution is to find that the bottoms are overlength though knowing the way Mik likes to get every last splinter out of a lump of ply, you're more likely to find the tops are short or, as Richard suggests, you're simply trying to fit things upside down or back to front.

Richard

[Martin2121]

Brilliant! Thanks very much. What do you reckon Mik?

[b.o.a.t.]

Dunno what MIK reckons but, assuming the other end isn't overhanging the bilge
panels by a similar amount, and the joins are fair and true, I'd just trim the bilge
panels back to match. In a nice curve of course, more or less following the existing line.
Won't make much difference to the shape of the boat. But then I've yet to build anything
true to plan. Including my own... :roll:
cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

Too many have been built and worked out to be within 6mm or less of the ideal - I would say the average margin is about 4mm difference between the panels - so there is a mistake here somewhere.

Happily it is not a big mistake! Quite tiny. One way would be if you measured out the stations as individual 300mm measurements individually rather than roll the tapemeasure full length along the ply and then mark 300, 600, 900 etc. But could be a slight error with marking out the topside panel. However with a small error like this it is probably not important to work out the exact reason and just check for gross errors ... like ...

The main thing is to make sure that the topside panel is in the right way - that is the biggest possible construction error.

The suggestions above of
putting in a piece of wood
marking and trimming the bilge panels

are both fine. With one of the Eurekas at the last class I taught at there was a little error too so we just built put in some tiny plywood wedges between the topsides to hold the stem the right width and filleting the inside then built up epoxy, but I think the two methods above are better.

But the wedge idea will work fine if you want to put in a piece of wood later.

If putting in a piece of wood I would probably after the internal fillet has done to hold the whole thing together would be to plane the overhang back flush with the topside panel in a slight curve and then cut a piece of real timber to cover the whole lot (also with a slight curve on its back face. I think that would tend to look like a feature rather than something "filling in" the area.

Best wishes
MIK

[honkongphoie]

One way would be if you measured out the stations as individual 300mm measurements individually rather than roll the tapemeasure full length along the ply and then mark 300, 600, 900 etc.
MIK

but if all the panels are measured using the same technique this would make no difference at all, it's only if you start mixing methods you'll run in to problems.



is it maybe a problem with the lower panels, take a look at the two photos below.

i don't know how to put this down in words but i'll try my best:-

this one is Martin2121's bow, if you hold a piece of paper parallel to the top panels and in line with the tip of the bilge panels you can see there is a big difference in the angle where the top half and the bottom half meet

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f32/121175d1257324503t-eureka-problem-short-panel.jpg

now looking at m2c1Iw's bow there is no change in angle and the lower panel just flows into the top panels creating an nice sweeping bow profile

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f169/114812d1251424510t-eureka-155-adelaide-oops-3-small-.jpg

well i did say i didn't know how to put this down hopfully some one will understand what i'm getting at

[Daddles]

but if all the panels are measured using the same technique this would make no difference at all, it's only if you start mixing methods you'll run in to problems.

Actually, that's not quite right. If you are marking out 300mm steps, and get one wrong, that error carries through the rest of the hull ie, if you marked out one step at 200, the rest of the boat will be that 100mm step. However, if you set the tape at one end and mark 300, 600, 900 etc, a mistake at one point just gets lost in the crowd because the next one will be at the correct distance.

Regardless of how you set out a grid (or any other set of distances), it's always good practice to measure the overall distance as a check. Similarly, if marking out either side of a centre line, I will mark both sides and then measure the overall distance to make sure they're right.


is it maybe a problem with the lower panels, take a look at the two photos below.

i don't know how to put this down in words but i'll try my best:-

this one is Martin2121's bow, if you hold a piece of paper parallel to the top panels and in line with the tip of the bilge panels you can see there is a big difference in the angle where the top half and the bottom half meet

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f32/121175d1257324503t-eureka-problem-short-panel.jpg

now looking at m2c1Iw's bow there is no change in angle and the lower panel just flows into the top panels creating an nice sweeping bow profile

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f169/114812d1251424510t-eureka-155-adelaide-oops-3-small-.jpg

well i did say i didn't know how to put this down hopfully some one will understand what i'm getting atAre you suggesting that the final point at the top of the bottom panel might be too far forward? You might be right, it's something to check and a possible solution to the problem too.

Richard
ain't it fun fixing other people's problems, so much more enjoyable than trying to sort out our own :C

[honkongphoie]

Are you suggesting that the final point at the top of the bottom panel might be too far forward? You might be right, it's something to check and a possible solution to the problem too.

yes that's exactly what i'm saying (why couldn't i make it that simple:rolleyes:)



ain't it fun fixing other people's problems, so much more enjoyable than trying to sort out our own :C
it sure is but i'm starting to get withdrawal symptoms from not having by own to sort out:C

[Daddles]

it sure is but i'm starting to get withdrawal symptoms from not having by own to sort out:C

Build a Eureka canoe - cheap, quick and you've already done the trouble shooting :D

Richard

[honkongphoie]

Build a Eureka canoe - cheap, quick and you've already done the trouble shooting :D

Richard
the Eureka is already on my wish list :oo: but for now i need to put all the money and preparation work towards the scoter :(

[Martin2121]

Thanks Mik, I appreciate the help from everyone. I will muck about with it over the next week or so and show what i come up with. I'm positive that it's me who has stuffed up but I'm frustrated by not knowing where.

[Daddles]

I'm positive that it's me who has stuffed up but I'm frustrated by not knowing where.

Oh how well do I know that feeling :C

Look for the down right screamingly obvious and daft mistakes as well as the subtle. It might be something as simple as a number that's misleading or easy to misread (flaw in the print out, bit of dirt, etc) and the problem with this sort of blue is that you'll keep making it convinced that you're right, so try to find an independent check. Look for other hints too - sometimes when you mark out a curve and run your batten over it and find that one point is out, it's not that point that's incorrect but another point that throws the whole lot out.

Welcome to the subtle joys of boat building ... which is why all good sheds have a moaning chair :wink:

Richard

[Boatmik]

Got it figured! Maybe?

The side panels go 6mm past the last reference line on the join end. I would guess that it was cut off flush with the reference line.

Remember that the photo with the big difference is not quite right either because the join between the side panel and bilge panel had not been stitched up at that point.

The boat was like this.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2426667948_266abfa396_m.jpg

When it was stitched the difference reduced - we don't have a pic of that though. There does seem to be a tendency for some of the side panels bows to be a few millimetres short - maybe between 0 and 3mm, add the extra 6mm of cutting off the join end and it jumps up to and error of between 6 and 9mm.

Or it would if that is the exact error made.

The only other thing I can think of is that the reference lines themselves were not quite right. But that should average out (with the Eureka only - not any other storerboats) because all the pieces come out of the same sheet. So the bows and butts will average out to pretty well the right lengths - unless there is an error in one of the end reference lines only.

Main point is that it is not critcal and can be worked round in a couple of ways.

Best wishes
Michael

[Martin2121]

This is a great forum and without it I'd be struggling. I appreciate all the help very much.:2tsup:. Today I made up a sort of stem piece for each end and epoxied them in and the process went well. I'll post a couple of pics when I've finished. It was a worthwhile process cos now I've learned how to mix up the bote cote to the consistency required for when I do the filletting. In todays heat (about 37) the epoxy was really runny and I kept adding powder until the peanut paste stage, whacked it on the stem pieces, taped them on and voila. Didnt go off too quick either. Thanks again to all of you.
Marty.

[Martin2121]

Pics of stem. I'm in half a mind to make a matching piece for inside the hull to epoxy against the outside stem. Is that overkill or should I just use fibre glass tape for the inside?

[m2c1Iw]

Well done, Mik will be along but m2cw glass the inside and ouside seams or put in large fillets on the inside so as there is plenty of glue surface between the stem piece and panels

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

If the fillet has about 18mm of contact area onto the hull panels it will be fine.

Looks fine in the pics. Continue it down to the end of the stem and it will be fine.

MIK

[MiLKey]

now i dont feel i have much weight in my reply as im yet to start making my first (im going to build the eureka so when i saw "problem" i thought i might read as i most likely will come across a few of my own), but due to this thinking from the outside it may be a good thing??? (you guys can judge)

but anyway i noticed in the pictures that you have the spreaders attached to the top panels as you are stitching... and you have stitched the ends of the panels together (stems?), when you put the spreaders in the sides bow out and the stems pull in (think of when the sting is drawn out on a bow and arrow, the bow pulls in)

perhaps before you cut try removing the spreaders and have one last stab at stitching again...?

[MiLKey]

ok so i feel dumb... note to self, check for a page 2 before replying... hahaha :2tsup:

[Martin2121]

Not as dumb as I feel MiLKey! I don't really know what happened, guess I've just mis-measured something. Anyhow it's turning out o.k. and I'm going to paint the outside so it won't be too obvious. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Marty.

[Boatmik]

Howdy Marty,

As a person who has made a few mistakes in his life I would suggest ... don't worry about it.

I always liked the line from Bill Gates when he was demonstrating Windows for the first time at a major computer conference and it crashed.

His line was "aha - an undocumented feature".

With boats it is the undocumented features that really make them OUR boat. Over time as you get more and more boats under your belt you start to look at the mistakes almost fondly.

With my catalogue of back mistakes It is almost like some old aspect of my personality sort of jumping out from behind a wall and say "remember me" when I think of them.

I always give that character a bit of a friendly smile now because, well, it is part of the learning about real and intricate things.

Was great that this was pretty easy to recover from too.

Glad you are here ... and you most certainly are in the right place!

MIK

[Martin2121]

Cheers Mik. :)

[Martin2121]

Thinking about putting one of these bow hole thingys in but......don't know what they're called or where to get one. Also, any pros or cons?

[Boatmik]

You just make them ... do you have the deck on yet? Easier if it is not on yet.

MIK

[Martin2121]

Er, no...phew! just doing the inwales so the decks were next. I suppose then that they're a bit of copper tubing fitted in?

[Boatmik]

Let me find it ... no copper necessary.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/nicks-eureka-155-a-69436/index5.html#post746675

Aint I good to you!

Terhe is a follow up from Nick a few posts later I think

MIK

[Martin2121]

Thanks Mik, you're quick off the mark. I thought I'd found all the posts on the Eureka. Should've had a proper look. Perchance I have already installed blocks in either end to overcome my short top panels so half the work is done. Is good. All the best for 2010.

Marty.

[Boatmik]

No Probs ... the good thing I know what is lurking in the archives! Did you see the index I did a while ago?
Index to all the items in the Eureka Plywood Canoe Thread (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/eureka-canoe-10486/#post177488) - not quite up to date and a lot of the structural stuff has been included in the plans now.

[Martin2121]

That's handy. I used to spend a lot of time reading these forums before I started building, now it's the other way around. I was over at Bundalong the other day, the river looks beautiful (apart from all the ski boats tearing it up) and I can't wait to get her in there.

Marty.

[Boatmik]

now it's the other way around. I was over at Bundalong the other day, the river looks beautiful (apart from all the ski boats tearing it up) and I can't wait to get her in there.

Haha ... Pity the poor designer ... when he passes water he has the same feeling .... but is getting no closer to having the boat in mind physically available!

:)

MIK

[Boatmik]

That last post's second meaning was unintended ... but it is too delicious to correct! I might use it in talks!

MIK

[Martin2121]

Psssst....Mik.... nobody noticed, I think you got away with it.