New turning tool

[Frank&Earnest]

Experimenting with square tungsten carbide cutters has given me some insights on how these can work and the way a square chisel and a bedan can be used for various tasks. Hence the idea of a tool that provides the versatility of all three together, with the drawback that, unlike TC inserts but like all other steel tools, it needs to be sharpened. And it is quite a pain to sharpen, so probably the next step would be to have TC tips manufactured in this shape to be attached to steel bars.

Now that it is in the common domain, nobody can patent it, so go your hardest all you closet toolmakers...:wink:

Here is a very crude prototype. It works, though, the test is in the last photo.

[tea lady]

:pi: Looks like a kind of flattened detail gouge. Do you use the sides like a sideways skew? :think:

[Cliff Rogers]

Similar to the one I have here 2nd from the right.

I call it a bedan.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f8/26709d1153141518-gouges-57-varieties-most-used.jpg

[tea lady]

Similar to the one I have here 2nd from the right.

I call it a bedan.

Yeah! But this "new tool" has a bevel down the side too. :shrug:

[Frank&Earnest]

Yeah! But this "new tool" has a bevel down the side too. :shrug:

Yep. And I do use it sideways, exactly like the insert tool in the other thread. Bedan/skew yes, gouge... no:)

[Ad de Crom]

Experimenting with square tungsten carbide cutters has given me some insights on how these can work and the way a square chisel and a bedan can be used for various tasks. Hence the idea of a tool that provides the versatility of all three together, with the drawback that, unlike TC inserts but like all other steel tools, it needs to be sharpened. And it is quite a pain to sharpen, so probably the next step would be to have TC tips manufactured in this shape to be attached to steel bars.

Now that it is in the common domain, nobody can patent it, so go your hardest all you closet toolmakers...:wink:

Here is a very crude prototype. It works, though, the test is in the last photo.
Think this is the most handy way.:2tsup:
Ad

[rsser]

Looks like it would work like a 3-point or pyramid tool.

[Frank&Earnest]

Looks like it would work like a 3-point or pyramid tool.

If you refer to this: Wood Turning Tools: Making the Pyramid Tool (http://www.aroundthewoods.com/three.shtml), no. The angle of the bevel is too different. Maybe I am a bit parochial here, but the only advantage of the pyramid tool seems to be that it would be easier to handle than the skew. My tool has that and much more versatility. Do you even remotely think one could cut a thin finial with that?

[Frank&Earnest]

Think this is the most handy way.:2tsup:
Ad

Actually, Ad, I am not so sure. :) Jutting out like that without support, TC would snap quite easily. On the other hand, sharpening is not only difficult (maybe not so much if you start from a machined trapezoidal or triangular bar) but also very wasteful, because after three or four sharpenings the width of the cutting edge would be reduced too much and you would have to cut off 10 mm or so of the tip and start again. (of course you could keep a couple of bars with the reduced cutting width for smaller work, but there will always be a point where you would have to start again).

Maybe the most effective way to obtain the three sided cutting shape is still to mount a square insert on a suitably tapered bar.

[Texian]

Maybe the most effective way to obtain the three sided cutting shape is still to mount a square insert on a suitably tapered bar.

Agreed. Looks a lot like one of my tool bits, mounted in a piece of steel pipe that was drilled and tapped for a set (grub) screw. Crude but effective school of design.

[Ed Reiss]

Frank, if nothing else, it would make a damn fine weapon for personal protection!!! :o

[jefferson]

Frank, I forgot to say thanks for the hook tools.

I don't like your new creation for one reason - you can't sharpen it consistently. Sure, you can hone the back of the blade, but eventually all that steel will be gone. I've had router bits sharpened and they always come back with a "new" profile..... :rolleyes:

But for one-off jobs, fine.

[Frank&Earnest]

My pleasure. Yes, the sharpening is wasteful and difficult, already said that. For consistent.... it depends on the sharpening skills and the equipment available, doesn't it?

[jefferson]

My pleasure. Yes, the sharpening is wasteful and difficult, already said that. For consistent.... it depends on the sharpening skills and the equipment available, doesn't it?

Frank, I've already said it but will say again - you are talking with a novice with no hand skills. Plenty of equipment, but no hand skills at all. Give me a jig etc and I will eventually work it out...... :D Or am I short on some equipment (steady, people.... :D)?

[Frank&Earnest]

OK guys, further to your advice (in this and other threads) and more experimentation, this seems to me a better developed set of new tools. I hope you will agree that although the Ci1 was the starting point of the thought process, these are different animals:
- they can cut and scrape on all sides.
- they can be rolled like a skew chisel
- they can be tilted 45 degrees for shear scraping
- all bevels can be rubbed like with a gouge.

And most importantly, lazy people like me do not need to learn to sharpen and use many tools. :D The proof of the pudding is in the eating, nobody cares how you cooked it.

Of course, the tool cuts only as well as the insert you mount, so if you make one and it does not cut well, change insert!

Have fun.

[artme]

Thanks for your generosity in showing the results of your experimentation F&E, as well as the theory lesson. Excellent stuff.:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

A couple of questions:

#1. How many tools do you think the latest range you show could replace?

#2. How well do they work in confined spaces. like fine beads and under the lips of potpouri bowls?

#3, Without the inserts, would it be possible to sharpen successfully with a Tormek type set up or with diamond files?

[Frank&Earnest]

Hi artme.

To the best of my knowledge:

#1 - all of them, with different degrees of effectiveness of course. Isn't there a French guy that does everything with a bedan? The square tool can do everything a bedan does and more, if the access angle is a problem the pointy one does the rest. I have done 14" bowls and 1/16" finials with them.

#2 - fine beads easy, fine coves slightly more difficult. Access is wherever a 1/2" square bar can go. Pot pourry bowls not a problem because the entry is about 2" wide, so you can cut at a very wide angle under the lip (say 120 - 150 degrees).
The photo attached should give you an idea.

#3 - Diamond files should work ok if you do it constantly. If you can jig it correctly, the Tormek should also work, but I have not tried yet.

I have tried the green grinder wheel (cheap, only $20) to give the insert a quick lick on the side of the wheel. It seems to work ok, but in normal circumstances I still think the best bet is to use an insert for a long time, turn it 180 degrees to double its use then discard it. So far the only problem I have had is chipping them by hitting the chuck. Not really the tool problem, is it? :-

[NeilS]

Pot pourry bowls not a problem because the entry is about 2" wide, so you can cut at a very wide angle under the lip (say 120 - 150 degrees).
The photo attached should give you an idea.



Frank - beats me how you can undercut like that with that tool, but then your the man when it comes to these insert tools

Nice profile on the bowl, BTW.

......

[artme]

Thanks F&E. I agree with NeilS on the line of the bowl.:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

When you look at the plethora of tools on the market, and all the claims made about them, no wonder people get confused.

I think that the KISS principal is a good one and you seem to be well on the way to almost total simplicity in tool design and numbers. Of course this is bound to make the "purists" and "traditionalists" growl in their kennels, but so what!

Another point springs to mind here. That of sharpening. Look at all the expensive doodads available for sharpening. The less it costs to sharpen the better.

[hughie]

I have tried the green grinder wheel (cheap, only $20) to give the insert a quick lick on the side of the wheel. It seems to work ok, but in normal circumstances I still think the best bet is to use an insert for a long time, turn it 180 degrees to double its use then discard it. So far the only problem I have had is chipping them by hitting the chuck. Not really the tool problem, is it? :-
[/QUOTE]


Green wheels, cheap or dear will pretty well produce the same results. As you probably have seen its a reasonable result but nothing to flash. For the really good finish a diamond hone wheel is required and they are pricey to say the least.

For metal turning the green wheel is ok, but a bit rough for wood cutting. If you have a indexable tip with good edges. Then as you say, wearing em out and discarding probably is the way to go.

I see McJings now have some turning tools with silver soldered tungsten tips on them. Small only, a 1/2" skew and what looked like a 3/8 spindle gouge, short length, no handle.

[Frank&Earnest]

Frank - beats me how you can undercut like that with that tool, but then your the man when it comes to these insert tools

Nice profile on the bowl, BTW.

......

Thanks Neil. The limiting factor is really the size of the opening, not the tool. On a narrow vase neck a straight tool could not do it, whatever the cutting tip, but with a wide pot-pourri bowl opening the angle determined by the thickness of the wall and the diametre of the opening, say 5mm and 50mm, produces a gradient of one in ten, not very steep. Here is a photo that might help with the explanation.

[NeilS]

Thanks Neil. The limiting factor is really the size of the opening, not the tool. On a narrow vase neck a straight tool could not do it, whatever the cutting tip, but with a wide pot-pourri bowl opening the angle determined by the thickness of the wall and the diametre of the opening, say 5mm and 50mm, produces a gradient of one in ten, not very steep. Here is a photo that might help with the explanation.

Perhaps the next variation will be a goosneck tool?.... :U

.....

[jefferson]

Frank and Neil,

I think the Easy Wood tool people have one already out there.....

[Frank&Earnest]

Perhaps the next variation will be a goosneck tool?.... :U

.....

I thought those were already available, with round cutters...:) I would not mind trying round cutters, but the vermec TC ones are too small (10 mm) for my rough metalworking skills, and the 25mm ones are still HSS, therefore defeating the idea of doing away with sharpening.

Philosophically, I do not appreciate much those hollow forms with minuscule openings that have no practical purpose and show off the technical skill of the turner but are rather limited aesthetically (IMHO, of course). Given the large variety of forms with relatively small openings obtainable with a straight tool, I doubt that I would bother with a gooseneck.

[jefferson]

Frank and Co,

just back on line for a short time. still here and the lathe is finally off.

I want a goose-neck Ci0 for one main reason - under-cutting the top of a box that I can't fit my Ci0 into. And I want it smooth as I can get.

Sorry for the short reply.

Head still spinning - afterall, has been here giving me free lessons and great tips since last Tuesday.

I'll sleep for a week solid after Julie drags him home.

More on what the Axeman has been up to later.... :D