Shooting board limitations.

[LineLefty]

After seeing Terry Gordons shoting board demonstration, I raced home and and made one that afternoon, it's just an MDF contraption and it'll probably wear pretty quick but It's realyl just a concept prover at the moment.

Anyhoot, it works beautifully for end grain on think stock (anything less that 19mm thick). But for larger stock, say 45x100mm it just wont slice.

So, the questions:

1) Is this a sharpness and plane setting issue i.e finest cut possible
2) Is this beyond a shooting board
3) If it is, how do you get a large piece of stock perfectly square at the end. I can get it pretty close with my ryoba but it's nice to be able to shave of .01mm's at a time to get it schmicko.
4) I'm not getting a SCMS!

[silentC]

Here's a link that may be of interest. This guy reckons up to about 25mm or so...

http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingpoints/shootingboards/shootingindex.htm

[derekcohen]

Adam

Shooting boards (and other guides) are there to make sure that you cut squarely, not simply to aid in slicing end grain, per se. I have a couple of shooting boards (1 x square and 1 x mitre), neither of which are ramped like Terry's (which is a beauty, isn't it!!).

I think that the major argument against a thick board is the limitation of the blade width. A 2" wide blade is unlikely to be able to cut more than 1" on a ramped table.

A ramped table is not necessary. In fact, neither of mine are (but I plan to change that this afternoon, just because). The reason for the ramped table is to present the blade at an angle to the timber, which lowers the effective cutting angle of the blade. The best planes for cutting end grain are those with a low cutting angle.

Look at the "best" (and most expensive!) shooting board, the Stanley #51/52. The plane is angled to slice obliquely. Purpose made mitre planes, such as those made by Spiers or Norris (and the copy by LN) are very low angle. My low angle jack plane, the Stanley #162, is purpose made for end grain slicing, which is why I did not bother with a ramp.

After the Show I went home and sharpened up the blade on my HNT Gordon Try Plane and tried this out - on pine! Not bad, not bad at all. Not at good as my #162, but the Try Plane has the advantage of a very long "nose", which makes cutting longer pieces easier on my short shooting board. I just clean it up with the #162 (or anly low angle block plane) afterwards.

Incidentally, slicing pine end grain is extremely challenging - probably the best test of all. End grain jarrah is hardly a test - the wood fibres hold together more securely. Pine requires a very sharp blade.

I am presently building several (8) drawers for a chest. Some of them are quite deep and I have to join two pieces of timber. I used the shooting board to do the jointing (ordinarily I clamp and plane the two pieces together), and they came out perfect, so much so that the gaps are invisible.

Incidentally, I made my shooting boards out of white melamine-covered MDF (this is less harsh on the blade body and makes it easier to slide), and 3mm MDF. Glued the 3mm on top leaving room to slide the plane. Jarrah fence at the end.

You are very welcome to come and have a play with my toys at my workshop. Just give me a call.

Regards

Derek

[outback]

I love the idea of the melamine shooting board. i've seen Silents link to the ramped version before, It's a gonna do thing.

I have real work tomorrow in the shed, maybe I'll find time to knock up a DerekandSilentmelaminerampedshooting board. Wotya reckon. :D

[Dan]

I always thought that the ramped shooting board was designed to even out the wear on the blade. My shooting board isn't ramped and if working with thin boards then it's a bit frustrating to have to resharpen a blade that is still as sharp as it was before you started apart from the 10mm or so that has been doing all the work.

[derekcohen]

Dan

You are right in that an advantage of a ramped shooting board will even out wear - one reason why I plan to make one - but the main reason is to reduce the blades' effective cutting angle.

Have a look here: http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan7.htm#num52

This is the #51/52 shooting board. Notice that the affair is flat but the plane's blade, itself, is skewed.

I'll post a couple of pics of my melamine shooting board later.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[stevepay]

Good evening gentlemen,

Just a quick one...The shooting boards that Terry was selling are brilliant, I bought one and highly recommend them. :)

they work much better than my old one wich I used to slick up with a bit of wax, the wood seems to have a good slick surface with little preperation.

and the slanted board makes it seem more natural with the downward motion making it easier to cut, my old board was flat...it never occured to me to ramp it.

the melamine would definatly be a cheaper option and I recon slick too. :cool:

Regards

Steve

[derekcohen]

Here are pics of my Quick-and-Dirty shooting boards. They should take about 15 minutes each (max) to make. But they work very well and enable accurate angles to be planed.

Use these for planing end grain square or mitred but perpendicular to the faces. Or for jointing short lengths (450 mm).

They are built from 20 mm melamine with a layer of 6 mm MDF. The fences and hooks are jarrah. All off cuts.

I clamp the hooks into a vise for extra rigidity.

The pictures should be self-explanatory. A couple of the boards, one of squaring the end grain of a scrap of pine off cut, and the final result. Plane used was a Stanley #62 low angle jack. Blade not really sharp enough!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dan]

I've been away and had a think (always dangerous), drew some diagrams and even draged out the calculator. After a while I realised that it doesn't matter how much angle the ramp has, a skew cut is not possible while the cutting edge of the blade is perpendicular to the direction of the plane motion (which it always will be when using a regular plane on a shooting board).

To put it another way, imagine making a normal skew cut on a large panel, you angle the plane and then push it along in the same direction as you would if making a straight cut. Now just imagine that the timber had some grit on it that left scratches in your plane sole. The scratches would run across the plane sole at the same angle as the plane was scewed (indicating a skew cut was made). On a ramped shooting board (using the same gritty wood), the scratches will always run parallel along the sole (no matter what the ramp angle is).

Or to picture it another way. Imaging planing the end grain of a piece of dowel. Can the angle of the ramp affect how the plane slices the wood?

[silentC]

Dan,

I think I get you. It is a different scenario to making a skew cut as you describe where you push the plane in the direction of the grain but have the blade at an angle to the direction of travel.

On the ramped shooting board, the surface along which the plane travels is not parallel to the surface on which your stock sits. So as you slide the plane along, the blade moves sideways in relation to the stock. The 'scratches' from the grit are still parallel to the plane sides but they are skewed in relation to the stock.

The blade is at an angle to the stock but not to the direction of travel, however the blade is slicing downwards at the same time as it moves forward giving a lower effective cutting angle. The angle of the ramp subtitutes for the sideways movement in a normal skew cut. At least that's how I visualise it. It's a bit difficult this early in the morning.

[Bob Willson]

Try imagining the ramp at 45 degrees and you will be able to visualise it more clearly.

[TassieKiwi]

Try imagining the ramp at 45 degrees and you will be able to visualise it more clearly.
I'm with Dan on this one. THe ramped board at 45 degrees is akin to holding a board vertically in the vise, and planing across the end of it at 45 deg,with the plane's sole parallel to the direction of travel, ie there is no change in the effective angle of wood vs plane.

The sloped job does look good however. I might make one anyway.http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

[silentC]

OK, I'm with you now. I drew a picture while I was having the morning coffee.

So what is the advantage of a ramped board?

When you start the cut, there is very little of the stock in contact with the blade but as you push through it spreads across the width and eventually you end up with more of the blade in contact with the stock than you would if you were not using the ramp. Is it just to spread the cut along the blade on small stock? Wouldn't the one spot of the blade still wear quicker than the rest anyway?

[Dan]

The ramp is only low and the stock must be small enough to allow the blade to cut the whole edge. You can plane a narrow thick board or a wide thin board (thinking about end grain only) but if you try a thick wide board, the top edge closest to you will be out of reach of the blade so you would have to swap back to an unramped board.

[silentC]

Yes, it's effectively decreasing the size of stock you can plane. So what is the advantage?

[Dan]

It distributes the wear across the blade.

[silentC]

Wouldn't that depend on the size and shape of the stock? If it was square, then the blade is still going to wear in one spot more than anywhere else...

Not saying it's not the case, just wondering if that's the only benefit.

[Dan]

Wouldn't that depend on the size and shape of the stock? If it was square, then the blade is still going to wear in one spot more than anywhere else...



Yep, you're right, the ramp will only make its presence felt when there is a long edge or end to plane. Just thought of one other possible benefit, bit of a longshot but. How about preventing blade damage due to heat? If you're really tearing into it on your new board and your stock is 10mm thick with a 150mm long edge to square up. It may be posible to generate enough heat on the 10mm section of blade that's doing all the work to affect the temper of the blade (if you're using a flat shooting board). Like I said, longshot.

[LineLefty]

Don;t know about heat, The sole wasnt hot that's for sure.

It's bloody hard work though using a shooting board, I can tell you that much.

[derekcohen]

Adam

What do you find hard about using a shooting board?

Regards

Derek

[LineLefty]

It simply takes a lot of manual effort to plane the end grain of a 40.40mm piece of pine.

By your comment though, I'm starting to think that I havent got the blade sharp enough. :o

[cyclops]

OK first of all: I am still to master the planing bit (got the book and a #4.5 from dad but it stops there). But I do work with geometry on a daily (well OK: weekly) basis.

But I did some drawing after reading the posts here and I'm with Dan regarding the impossibility of a skew cut with this shooting board. In order to do that you would need to move the plane forward and sideways at the same time (see attachment for picture). I don't know of any shooting board contraption that can do this (there's a great jig to be build here people!:))).
On the other hand I'm with SilentC regarding the distribution of wear. By ramping the shooting board you get more of the cutting edge in contact with the wood, BUT at the same time you make the central part of the cutting edge work longer. Picture the 45 degree ramp again: the outside edges of the plane blade only go through wood very shortly, the central part however now has to go through the diagonal of the wood (which is about 1,4x longer than the width). In the attached picture (wear_distribution) the red area symbolizes the length of wood that each part of the cutting edge has to go through. In short the central part of the cutting edge gets more wear when using a ramped shooting board. Since you have to sharpen again as soon as any part of the cutting edge is dull, you end up sharpening more often :(.

As to the jig: how about making the ramped shooting board and putting the plane on a sled to hold it horizontal again. While the sled is moving along the ramp, the cutting edge is always vertical while the plane moves forward and downward.

Jasper

[derekcohen]

To repeat points I made earlier: the ideal plane for cross-grained cutting is one with a low cutting angle (typically 20 degrees). A plane with a skewed blade simply reduces the effective cutting angle.

This is not to say that a high angle plane cannot cut across the grain – the HNT Gordon Try Plane(60 degrees) can do a great job. But the cut is not as clean as a low angle plane, all things held equal (such as inertia and momentum – later).

A shooting board is mainly used to cut end or cross grain. This is either to accurately trim ends of boards, or to trim mitres.

A ramp on a shooting board is there to reduce the effective cutting angle by fooling the board that the plane has a skewed blade. As an illustration consider the technique we use in planing long grain: the plane is skewed at an angle and pushed straight ahead. The blade is not cutting across the grain (as one might if using a scrub plane) but rather the skewed blade is slicing at an angle. It is this skewed cutting action that we are talking about.

Have a look at the Lie Nielson #140 Skewed Block Plane as an example of a low angle set up.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=140

OK, so what are the best planes to use on a shooting board. Basically something that has heft and weight so that it carries enough momentum through the cut. Yes, end grain cutting is hard work and a dinky block plane is not the way to go. A #6 or #7 will do far better in this regard. But wait a minute! They have 45 degree cutting angles! Too high? So why not reduce the cutting angle with a ramp to simulate a skewed blade? What a good idea.

An (available) preferred plane would be something like a LN #62 (I use a Stanley #62) because these have both the size and the low angle set up. Then you do not have to ramp the shooting board.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dan]

Jasper,
I was thinking of it this way. The edge to be planed has a certain area that will be cut on each stroke, if you can make the cut by using as much of the blade as possible (by ramping the board) then the blade should last longer (you can share the load a bit). The blade will get more wear in the middle but at least the edges will be doing a bit of work as well. With no ramp the same section of the blade does all the work (same area of wood but less blade to cut it with) which leaves a blade with a big blunt spot (usually towards one end) and the rest of it not having touched wood since the last sharpening.

[Ben from Vic.]

Jasper

I think your on to something there (and who ever it was that suggested it first).

Running the plane on a ramp doesn't give a you a skew cut it just changes the cutting direction (like planing diagonaly across your timber).
The plane is still going straight ahead, just at a (down) angle.

To produce a skew cut you'd need to hold the plane perfectly horizontal, then run it down a ramp.

Or....

Hold the plane on an angle, then run it horizontaly.

See?? ;)


Your blade wear maths sounds right too.


Ben.

[Dan]

Derek,
I agree that a skew mouth plane will lower the cutting angle. I also agree that a square mouth plane can be made to act like a skew mouth plane if its axis (from heel to toe) doesn't match the direction of travel (ie, its skewed). However, the same square mouth plane cannot make a skew cut on a shooting board, ramped or flat, because its axis will always be parallel to the direction of travel, the timber being cut doesn't come into it because it's just wood and all it sees is a square mouth comming toward it (the blade edge is always 90deg to the direction of travel).

Even if the ramp did produce a skew cut, with the ramp at 5deg or so the effect would be bugger all.

[cyclops]

I made another picture.
The pictures show a couple of plane positions and a piece of wood (not moving) the motion is from light grey to black (right to left).

The top figure is a normal square mouth plane on a normal shooting board. Concentrating on the centre of the wood, you can see it moves straight up the blade. Because of this the angle that the wood sees is the angle that the blade has in the plane (45 degrees).
The middle figure is a skew mouth plane on a normal shooting board. Concentrating on the centre of the wood, you can see it moves at an angle across the blade. Because of this the angle that the wood sees is lower than the angle that the blade has in the plane. For a 90 degree skewness (unrealistic of course) the angle will be 0 degrees and for a skewness of 0 degrees (normal square mouth plane) it will be 45 degrees again.
The lower figure shows a square mouth plane on a ramped shooting board. Again concentrating on the centre of the wood, you can see it moves straight up the blade. Because of this the angle that the wood sees is the angle that the blade has in the plane (45 degrees).

I really do think that the only way to make a square mouth plane work like a skewed mouth plane is by holding the plane perfectly horizontal and running it down a ramp or as Ben said "hold the plane on an angle, then run it horizontaly".
Ben's option is of course much easier to build (why didn't I think of that).

Jasper

[cyclops]

:o
Should have included a picture for a straight mouth plane on a sled moving along a straight shooting board of course. So here it is.

Jasper

[vsquizz]

The angle of attack/presentation of the plane wont matter at all when planing endgrain on a shooting board save for anomolies in the grain. Changing the angle is the same as rotating the stock on the board.

The blade angle, as Derek points out, will. Terry Gordon explained the angled shooting board as using more of the blade width and distributing wear which I think would be beneficial if you had say 20 pieces of the same size hardwood to true up.

A sliding wedge under the board would be interesting allowing you to use the whole blade width....Or you could have several positions for the stop block?? provided it stayed square...

Cheers

BTW Has anybody made a shooting board for a Makita power planer??:D

[derekcohen]

I stand corrected about the amount of skew imparted by a ramp. It is not much. The real advantage of a ramped shooting board is that is distributes wear on the blade. So the best plane is a heavy, low angle if you have one, or a heavy one if you don't.

I received the following message from Jeff Gorman, whose opinion I value highly:

I think that the usual ramp angle would have little effect in this regard.
Please see my web site - Planing Notes - What Happens When You Slew.

The problem with the common shooting board is that the wear is restricted to
just a narrow section of the blade, hence rapid wear. In fact, a significant
notch will soon stop the plane working altogether.

The idea is therefore to lengthen this section, though of course the
thickness of the workpiece comes into the equation.

For my own idea of a lightweight ramped board intended principally for end
grain, please see - Projects - A Ramped Shooting Board. I do believe that at
least one person has tried to make one!

Jeff
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Email: [email protected]
www.amgron.clara.net

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dan]

Which ever way you look at it, we've all learnt something. :)

[outback]

See what ya started Adam! Your'e a bad bad influence my friend. ;)

So, do we make a ramped shooting board, or a quicker easier flat one?

And Derek, seeing as we don't all own a nice newly refurbished #62, ;) will a Veritas low angle jack plane suffice? BTW should the 62 give you any troubles I'd be happy to have a look at it, I'd obviously need it a few years but hey thems the breaks. :D

I'm getting a vision, :confused: I'm getting a vision, :confused: I can see a board, running parallel, but raised from the bench top, aside this a clampy thingy. holding a plane skewed to the board, this clampy thingy runs on drawer runners. So the net effect is real skew planing on a shooting board.

That's the concept, now you lot make one for me. :D

[derekcohen]

Outback

You are welcome to my #62, under two conditions:

(1) You have to collect it in Perth in person :)

(2) and claw it from my dead hand! :D

I think the Veritas version will be as good, perhaps better, as a substitute.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Willson]

Number two ain't so bad, but number one will cost ya in travellin'. :D

[outback]

Outback

You are welcome to my #62, under two conditions:

(1) You have to collect it in Perth in person :)

(2) and claw it from my dead hand! :D

I think the Veritas version will be as good, perhaps better, as a substitute.

Regards from Perth

Derek
(1) No problems I'll be there in a few weeks anyhow
(2) This is problem, perhaps Bob can PM a few suggestions :D

As for the Veritas Low angle, I have no idea how to explain that one to SWMBO.
She just ordered HNT Gordon planes for me the other day.

You people here have a lot to answer for. Not so long ago i was happy with a crappy #4 which wouldn't cut butter, now the wish list is longer than my arm. :rolleyes:

[John Saxton]

Outback, you're just plane crazy :D like the rest o' us here in this BB.

Next its Lie Nielsen and haunting those web sites offering up old planes etc :eek:

Cheers :)

[outback]

Outback, you're just plane crazy :D like the rest o' us here in this BB.

Next its Lie Nielsen and haunting those web sites offering up old planes etc :eek:

Cheers :)
(1) I'm still holding out OK on the LN's, I can't justify that sort of $$$.....................................................yet
(2) Way way way too late fer that, been a haunter fer ages. :rolleyes:

[Bob Willson]

Outback, is that some sort of a club I see behind your avatar? No 2 is answered. :D

[outback]

SSSHHHH Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm huntin' pwanes.
There pwotected by big bad Dewekcohens, which get vewy vewy cwanky when ya twy and steel them. :D

[LineLefty]

OK, I appreciate all the replies but I'm still a bit stumped. I have a 4 legs for a simple footstool. 45x38mm pine. how do I get the ends perfectly square. That is, so that whewn they stand next to each other o na flat surface they are all level and exactyl the same height?

Perhaps the answer is a SCMS and a disk sander? Is it?
Maybe so, but I dont have either of these and there must be a way to do it with hand tools, but the shooting boards just doesnt seem to be getting the results i need.

[Bob Willson]

You need a jig that will hold your hand saw square while you move it backwards and forwards. The length of the legs is not a problem, it is only the squareness of the cut that is a problem. The jig can be something a simple as a box that has square sides that you can hold the body of the saw blade against.

[Ben from Vic.]

You can also use a chisel (broad and flat helps).

There are many ways this could be guided by a flat piece of timber clamped to the side of your (footstool) leg.

Even an "L" shaped piece of timber to make life a little easier.


Ben.

[derekcohen]

Adam

Bob's suggestion is a good place to start, that is, clamp all the legs together with one end exactly in line. Ideally, place these in a mitre box and cut them all together. If you don't have a suitable mitre box, then clamp a 2x4 (or something equally solid) as a fence against which you can run a saw. This is really where a Japanese saw scores - smooooth and accurate cuts.

The alternative is to use a shooting board. Again place all the legs clamped together against the fence of the shooting board, and just plane them level. This is straight forward on the shooting board.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

I came across a link I had saved on shooting boards. You really MUST take a look. These are definitely the most beautiful shooting boards I have ever seen. Gad, I must build one!

Enjoy.

http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/chute.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

And keep an eye on this one currently on eBay (Aus). I estimate it should go for at least $2500. Would you rather have this or a decent table saw and a band saw and a .....??!!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4123&item=6114124542&rd=1

Regards from Perth

Derek

[LineLefty]

Thansk derek and others,

I've had a bit more of a go on the weekend and gettign these legs square. I do have a mitrebox but it's $29 cheapy so I'm simply more accurate with my ryoba.

I hae made a shootign board but these legs are square 45mm piecs so were a bit difficult to plane end endgrain. But!

I spent a bit more time scary sharpening the blade, and really sharpening it, not just enough to get my newly restored plane in action. The results were much better. Now, the only problem is that side of the plane is not exactly square to the sole. Give me a break! I thought it was but my $10 bunnings notsquare musn't be right

I've managed to compensate using the lateral adjuster on the blade which works quite well but still.

So, question No.607: Getting the side square is a job for a machine shop yes?
What exactly does this mean, as in, what do I look under in the yellow pages?

[silentC]

I squared the sides of mine up by putting my lapping plate on my SCMS table and then lapping the sides while holding the sole tight against the fence. Anything with a good solid 90 deg. fence will work: tablesaw, jointer. Failing that, I suppose you could make a right-angle jig from MDF or something suitable.

[derekcohen]

Adam

Silent C's advice is spot on. Below is a picture of when I was lapping the side of my #62. I used my dado fence (clamped to the tablesaw fence) so I could shim it and get an absolute 90 degrees.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[peteandoreen1]

ADVANTAGE of and angled shooting board, It seems like none at all.
Best of all you can get a little more practice in sharpening your Blades.:U

[derekcohen]

There is an advantage with the ramped shooting board (over the flat version). The slight skew cut from the ramp reduces the "shock" from the blade impacting the wood. It does make for a more comfortable use. The blade angle also tends to force the wood into the fence, so it is held a little more firmly.

Being in WA, you are always welcome to come and try out different types at my workshop (in Rossmoyne). I have a variety.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[peteandoreen1]

Thanks Derek. I'm not sure I fully understand. I feel that when angled you are presenting the blade with a wider surface to cut (Once past the intial point of contact) making the job harder. For me any way. I live in Mandurah so its a fair treck to Your shop. But when next visiting my father at Hollywood I'll come arround. Thank you very much for the invitation.

PS My sharpening skills could also be the problem. :C:B