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hughie
6th Jan 2010, 08:03 PM
Fairly good prices I thought.


Carbide Insert Knives - Global Tooling (http://globaltooling.bizhosting.com/products/carbide-insert-knives.html)


and net specials http://globaltooling.bizhosting.com/products/web-specials.html

WOODbTURNER
7th Jan 2010, 11:18 AM
Hughie,

Contacted this mob before and they will send up to 4lbs in one parcel for $US19.45 to OZ.
This equates to 300 knives or 30 boxes of 10. Sounds good as the $AU is on the way up again.

Cheers

Allen Neighbors
7th Jan 2010, 11:24 AM
Question, Hughie:
Is it easy to buy screws with the right degree of slope on the shoulder for these knives? Just curious if they are pretty well standardized in the industry. I've wanted to go for something like this before, and have hesitated for that reason.
BTW - It's too cold for work in the shed for some time now, and a while to go. I'll get around to puttin' that ez cutter to work one of these days.

NeilS
7th Jan 2010, 12:56 PM
Thanks, Hughie....:2tsup:

.....

gtwilkins
7th Jan 2010, 03:47 PM
Allen,

They have screws:

Spiral - Spare Screws (http://globaltooling.bizhosting.com/spiral-spare-screws.html)

at $0.88 they are half the price of the cutter!

What I can't understand is the price difference between the Non-Titan Brand @ $3.59 and the Titan Spiral Shear Heads @ $1.99.

Trevor

TTIT
7th Jan 2010, 05:00 PM
Still looking for those round ones though :C. Had any luck Hughie????

hughie
7th Jan 2010, 05:34 PM
]Still looking for those round ones though

Flat or cupped?

Categories (http://www.carbidedepot.com/Dynamiclanding.aspx?CategoryID=4285)

half way down the page

AMMCO Tool Bits & Carbide Inserts (http://www.ammcoats.com/Products_Details.aspx?id=740245215)

hughie
7th Jan 2010, 05:40 PM
Is it easy to buy screws with the right degree of slope on the shoulder for these knives? Just curious if they are pretty well standardized in the industry. I've wanted to go for something like this before, and have hesitated for that reason.


Screws are alway for sale via the tip tool companies and they do vary some between manufacturers. But once you settle on a tip type etc then you only need that particular holding screw. They are normally low cost items, a couple bucks each at the most.They will be metric and you may have to buy a small metric tap etc.

But if you look around for some counter sunk Allen screws, I find you can grind them down to a fairly decent holding screw. They are not much cheaper but far more readily available via you local Eng. supply outfit or local nut and bolt shop etc. :2tsup:

NeilS
7th Jan 2010, 06:29 PM
Flat or cupped?

Categories (http://www.carbidedepot.com/Dynamiclanding.aspx?CategoryID=4285)

half way down the page

AMMCO Tool Bits & Carbide Inserts (http://www.ammcoats.com/Products_Details.aspx?id=740245215)

Got a bit lost looking for carbide inserts suitable for cutting wood. Had in tha back of my mind that C3 grade was about right but couldn't see any described as such.

Which grades of carbide are suitable for woodturning speeds/temperatures?

.....

hughie
7th Jan 2010, 06:35 PM
Which grades of carbide are suitable for woodturninf speeds/temperatures?
most if not all are for metal and you have to sharpen up the edge for fine work. But for roughing they should do fine. Found a site for round wood cutters but lost it :C. Plenty available in HSS tho'

might be the answer, look for Double Back Out Knife

http://globaltooling.bizhosting.com/products/knives-ql/quick-lock-profile-knives.html

WOODbTURNER
7th Jan 2010, 07:24 PM
Hughie,

Have you seen this Easywood copy?

www.carbidewoodturningtools.com (http://www.carbidewoodturningtools.com)

They must be pi---- -ff as there is hardly any diff!!

hughie
7th Jan 2010, 09:09 PM
Have you seen this Easywood copy?


This out come was highly predictable and only a matter of time.Theres another site selling something similar for about $50US.

NeilS
8th Jan 2010, 09:47 AM
Hughie,

Have you seen this Easywood copy?

www.carbidewoodturningtools.com (http://www.carbidewoodturningtools.com)

They must be pi---- -ff as there is hardly any diff!!

Interesting that they have gone down the router-bit pathway for round cutters. Looks like the round carbide inserts that are suitable for woodturning are not so readily available.

Found this source of round cutters, but not as cheap as the square inserts: Round Inserts (http://www.carbidedepot.com/Dynamiclanding.aspx?CategoryID=4285). The raised cutting rims on some of the round inserts look like interesting options.

.....

Frank&Earnest
8th Jan 2010, 02:54 PM
Looks like we are still all stuck in the same place, are we? The round cutters for wood are hard to come by and expensive. I would not touch those for metal cutting (like those you mention, Hughie and Neil), not worth the hassle IMHO, but I admit I had very little experience with them. They are only suitable for slow speed cutting anyway.

Re screws: I got the closest I could find and ground the top to fit, not a stopper to DIY, IMHO again. Next time I might actually look for a better fit, if it is worth it.

Some time ago somebody found a source for round ones that looked promising, I let it pass because mailing charge was $50 and I wanted to look around first. Now that I have, I'll probably try to find that source again. Anybody interested in a group buy?

Re copycat tools: Wow, who would ever have imagined that? :D I am curious to see if/when somebody will produce commercially my 3 edge bedan...:D:D

NeilS
8th Jan 2010, 03:38 PM
Some time ago somebody found a source for round ones that looked promising, I let it pass because mailing charge was $50 and I wanted to look around first. Now that I have, I'll probably try to find that source again. Anybody interested in a group buy?



I'd be interested in a group buy, Frank.

My interest in the round ones is for both the inside of bowls and the extra mileage you would get from a round cutter.... you only have to rotate it slightly to get a fresh sharp cutting area, thus more use from each insert. Going by my teardrop HSS scraper tips, control might also be easier.

I'm still not clear which grades of carbide are most suitable for wood at the speeds we woodturners work at. If we new that it would narrow the search.

.....

Frank&Earnest
8th Jan 2010, 04:04 PM
Well, at least with round cutters we do not have to fight the "establishment", given that deep hollowers that use them are already "conventional". :wink: Will try to find that source again.

Edited to add:
Found that post. Thanks Woodbturner.
The inserts are still those for metal, but the supplier says:


Carbide Depot specializes in metal cutting tools for the metal machining industry, however lately we have
been getting many calls from home hobbyists looking for carbide inserts to use in wood turning. Unfortunately,
because of the way inserts and holders are marketed in our industry, we are not able to answer many of the
questions from our wood turning customers. However we can offer the following inserts and screws from the
American manufacturer Kennametal, which are used by the vast majority of our wood turning customers using
homemade built holders. We keep plenty of stock on each of these inserts and screws at our Carbide Depot
warehouse in Birmingham, Alabama:
Still does not mean that they are any good, and I have serious doubts that they can be used for finishing the inside of hollow vessels at a reasonable level. The bottom line is that they cost less than $A2 when the "proper" ones are kept rather secret by the woodworking suppliers so they can charge a lot. I am still unsure. $7.10 per packet of 5, but shipping cost is still $50. What I will do is buy 30, which will end up at about $A100, so we can all experiment at little cost. If they are any good we'll take it from there.

hughie
8th Jan 2010, 04:20 PM
Just about all the listed cutters in this thread are for metal. The up turned lip would have a small radius on it :C. But if one had a decent diamond polishing burr etc the edge could be touched up to produce a much sharper edge.

There are deep cup type for metal machining, used allot in the manufacture of extrusion dies etc. I am not sure who the manufacturer is, but they would be very easily converted to wood usage. I have a couple of partially worn ones that I intend to a go at sometime.

Putting all this aside I have had good success with HCS Higher Carbon Steel. The Leady cup cutter is made from HCS. I think all a matter of what you intend to use the cutter for, for me Oland type grind is what I use for roughing and it can be out TCT, Carbide, cobalt etc. I really hammer the edges with use and sometimes grind a positive rake to the top and then roll it over in a semi shear scrape if its a bit too aggressive.

Roughing out for me is bulk removal, no finesse, just hog it out.

Frank&Earnest
8th Jan 2010, 05:01 PM
OK, they should arrive in about one week. Bought 25 for US$85.50, that is about A$4 each. Any bulk order later on, if they work, would bring the cost under A$2. Until they realise they have a new huge market and increase the price.:D

TTIT
8th Jan 2010, 05:13 PM
I'd be interested in trying a couple F&E. If they're roughly the same size and bevel angle as the Ci0 it should only be a matter of getting a good edge up with a diamond hone (in theory :C ). Even bought some stainless square bar while I was way down south in readiness for just such an opportunity :U

Frank&Earnest
8th Jan 2010, 05:26 PM
I'd be interested in trying a couple F&E. If they're roughly the same size and bevel angle as the Ci0 it should only be a matter of getting a good edge up with a diamond hone (in theory :C ). Even bought some stainless square bar while I was way down south in readiness for just such an opportunity :U

No worries, if they get here they will get there :wink:. Given that they are round, sharpening should be easy with the technique hughie (IIRC?) recommended for rounding the screw's edge, revolving it with a hand drill against the grinder wheel diamond hone.

I have kept one square bar in readiness also, and a round bar for a deep hollower. :)

WOODbTURNER
8th Jan 2010, 06:15 PM
most if not all are for metal and you have to sharpen up the edge for fine work. But for roughing they should do fine. Found a site for round wood cutters but lost it :C. Plenty available in HSS tho'

might be the answer, look for Double Back Out Knife

Quick-Lock Profile Knives - Global Tooling (http://globaltooling.bizhosting.com/products/knives-ql/quick-lock-profile-knives.html)

Hughie,

These look promising.
Have sent email to them to find out the dimensions. Will let you know. Only thing is that they cost $us9.00 each but then cheaper than $us17.00 each

Frank&Earnest
8th Jan 2010, 06:42 PM
Hughie,

These look promising.
Have sent email to them to find out the dimensions. Will let you know. Only thing is that they cost .00 each but then cheaper than .00 each

Which, again, raises the question: C3 is C3 is C3 and this crowd is overcharging or C3 is not.... and I am getting duds? You brought them up last time, does this mean that you have excluded Carbide Depot for some reason? The ones I am getting are 12mm diametre, BTW, the 10mm ones (Vermec type) would be too small for a 12mm bar.

WOODbTURNER
8th Jan 2010, 07:27 PM
-------- You brought them up last time, does this mean that you have excluded Carbide Depot for some reason? The ones I am getting are 12mm diametre, BTW, the 10mm ones (Vermec type) would be too small for a 12mm bar.


F&E,
By no means! I'm just fishing around like everyone else to find the right ones. These ones (Round inserts) look like round versions of the square inserts for cutting wood plus they're made for wood.

hughie
8th Jan 2010, 10:58 PM
No worries, if they get here they will get there :wink:. Given that they are round, sharpening should be easy with the technique hughie (IIRC?) recommended for rounding the screw's edge, revolving it with a hand drill against the grinder wheel diamond hone.



F&E, Had a look at the site and the round cutters. They look a great deal like the ones being sold in the US for wood turners, Hunter tools I think the name is. If so, then, they would not need any sharpening.
But If you do intend to sharpen them, then remember that the Silicon Carbide grinding wheel (the green one) is very coarse and wont really produce a fine edge. I go over mine TCT with a diamond file/hone. A diamond hone etc is way cheaper than anything else as I suspect you would need a wheel around 400 grit to get the fine edge

I would be interested in a couple if theres any on offer.

NeilS
9th Jan 2010, 12:09 AM
Hughie,

These look promising.
Have sent email to them to find out the dimensions. Will let you know. Only thing is that they cost .00 each but then cheaper than .00 each

I think you get a pair of those round carbide Double Back Out Knives for US$9, so that's takes it down to US$4.50 ea.,before postage. They also have a Torx screw to match for an extra US$1. So, just a bit more than the ones that Frank is getting from Carbide Depot, but perhaps worth getting a small batch of those as well so they can be compared. It would be interesting to try out a carbide cutter with a negative rake.

Should you proceed with a pilot batch order, WOODbTURNER, I would be interested in a few, depending on the size. They would need to be at least 12mm diam for my purposes.

.....

Frank&Earnest
9th Jan 2010, 12:27 AM
F&E, Had a look at the site and the round cutters. They look a great deal like the ones being sold in the US for wood turners, Hunter tools I think the name is. If so, then, they would not need any sharpening.
But If you do intend to sharpen them, then remember that the Silicon Carbide grinding wheel (the green one) is very coarse and wont really produce a fine edge. I go over mine TCT with a diamond file/hone. A diamond hone etc is way cheaper than anything else as I suspect you would need a wheel around 400 grit to get the fine edge

I would be interested in a couple if theres any on offer.

Yep, you mentioned that before, that's why I crossed out the wheel. :) When I get them we'll work out how to spread them. Ditto with you woodbturner, I second Neil's motion. :wink:

TTIT
9th Jan 2010, 01:04 AM
.............Should you proceed with a pilot batch order, WOODbTURNER, I would be interested in a few, depending on the size. They would need to be at least 12mm diam for my purposes.

.....Ditto for moi! :2tsup:

hughie
9th Jan 2010, 10:15 AM
Have sent email to them to find out the dimensions. Will let you know. Only thing is that they cost .00 each but then cheaper than .00 each



Keep me posted, hassle em over shipping ask for ordinary mail otherwise they like to courier everything every where. :2tsup:

WOODbTURNER
9th Jan 2010, 01:35 PM
Just got a reply re cutters.
They do cost $us9.00 each (single) and are 11mm dia x 7mm high and 5.1mm hole.
I reckon they're too small for my 12mm square stainless bars that I bought unless I grind the end to suit.. Any ideas out there?
F&E, if the cutters you are getting are shaped like the Hunter one with a lip, you will have to use it on an angle as in a shear cut as it will dig in if used flat. Let me know if I'm wrong.

NeilS
9th Jan 2010, 03:18 PM
Just got a reply re cutters.
They do cost .00 each (single) and are 11mm dia x 7mm high and 5.1mm hole.
I reckon they're too small for my 12mm square stainless bars that I bought unless I grind the end to suit.. Any ideas out there?
F&E, if the cutters you are getting are shaped like the Hunter one with a lip, you will have to use it on an angle as in a shear cut as it will dig in if used flat. Let me know if I'm wrong.

Reckon they are getting a bit too expensive compared to the ones Frank is getting in from US and starting to be a bit on the small size. Personally I wouldn't bother modifying 1/2in bar if you can get a 12mm or larger.

As for the profile, the Woodcut cup hollowing tool has that profile so anyone who has used that could comment on how it does the job.

.....

hughie
9th Jan 2010, 05:01 PM
Just got a reply re cutters.
They do cost .00 each (single) and are 11mm dia x 7mm high and 5.1mm hole.
I reckon they're too small for my 12mm square stainless bars that I bought unless I grind the end to suit.. Any ideas out there?
F&E, if the cutters you are getting are shaped like the Hunter one with a lip, you will have to use it on an angle as in a shear cut as it will dig in if used flat. Let me know if I'm wrong.


No worries if you off set the holding hole on you square bar to the front and the side of your bar by a couple of mm they will work fine.

Essentially they will be a cup cutter of sorts and with these you generally angle them anyway

Frank&Earnest
9th Jan 2010, 06:44 PM
The ones I am getting have a straight 83 degree bevel, not much difference from a standard round nose scraper. Can't see any reason why a 10mm one would not work, in itself, but in terms of efficiency a bulky bar with a small cutting area does not make much sense to me.

I am curious as a cat to see what I am getting for that $50 mailing charge, so far is 3 e-mails, 2 from CD and 1 from UPS telling me that the package is 2.1 pounds :oo::?.
Thy are also saying 3-4 days delivery, I'll believe it when I see it...:D

BTW, I have not bought any screws, in hindsight it could have been a good idea to get a couple for comparison, but I am thinking of sourcing suitable ones here anyway. Can't see any reason why one should pay more than 10c for a screw.

Maybe I should rephrase the last sentence...:B

NeilS
9th Jan 2010, 08:59 PM
BTW, I have not bought any screws, in hindsight it could have been a good idea to get a couple for comparison, but I am thinking of sourcing suitable ones here anyway. Can't see any reason why one should pay more than 10c for a screw.

Maybe I should rephrase the last sentence...:B

What you do in your private life is your own business, Frank..... :U

.....

Frank&Earnest
10th Jan 2010, 12:25 AM
What you do in your private life is your own business, Frank..... :U

.....
What were you thinking? :oo: I just remebered the $500 a pop I paid for the titanium screws of my tooth implants. :D

NeilS
10th Jan 2010, 10:12 AM
what were you thinking? :oo: I just remebered the $500 a pop i paid for the titanium screws of my tooth implants. :d


:doh:......:U

.....

NeilS
10th Jan 2010, 03:40 PM
I am curious as a cat to see what I am getting for that $50 mailing charge, so far is 3 e-mails, 2 from CD and 1 from UPS telling me that the package is 2.1 pounds :oo::?.
Thy are also saying 3-4 days delivery, I'll believe it when I see it...:D



On reflection, it occurs to me that shipping cost is bit steep for that weight. If you needed them here in 3-4 days, maybe not.

However, I had a chainsaw (6.1Kg) + 20" bar and chain + spare 28" bar and chain (would have come in just under 10Kg) delivered here from US in 5-7days for A$123, That's about $12.30/kg.

Of course it's not a linear scale. The handling and delivery man/woman cost is much the same for a 1Kg as it is for a 10Kg package. The variable being the air-freight charge.

Regardless, delivered here in Australia, all costs included, the A$/insert is negligible compared to sourcing them locally, i.e., if they can be found here.

So, lettuce... know what we owe you, Frank, when you decide how many you are prepared to part with, if any.

.....

Frank&Earnest
10th Jan 2010, 05:25 PM
Considering that the net weight of the inserts is probably 100g, the actual shipping cost works out at about $500 a kg...:o That's why I was saying that buying 200 instead of 25 the shipping cost should not change.

It is a bit early days, given that they are not here yet, but let's do it this way.

Anyone who wants one to try can send me one preaddressed envelope stamped with $1.10 and I will send it back with 1 insert and 1 suitable screw gratis, only stipulation is that you have to mount it on a bar, try it, photo it and post your comments. Up to 20, first come first served.

Given your admitted limitations with metalwork, Neil, for you we might have to work out some other way...:D


PS: UPS tracking now says expected delivery on 18/1.... that's more reasonable, maybe 3-4 days within the USA...

WOODbTURNER
11th Jan 2010, 12:01 PM
No worries if you off set the holding hole on you square bar to the front and the side of your bar by a couple of mm they will work fine.

Essentially they will be a cup cutter of sorts and with these you generally angle them anyway

I think I will give this one a miss as I think 11mm is too small for a 12mm bar.
If I do as you mentioned (off set), this will defeat the purpose of using the cutter edge from left around to the right of cutter. I suppose a thinner bar would work.
I've ask them if they come in larger diameters ie 14-15mm dia and will let you know of their reply. If they charge $us9.00 for 11mm what will the bigger ones cost!
It's getting to the stage of buying the cutters from the Ci0 makers.

WOODbTURNER
12th Jan 2010, 11:41 AM
Latest reply from Gloabal Tooling.

Quote
"I have seen that wood turners use larger ones but I have not been able to locate them. We need to make at least 5000 pcs to justify a custom size"

I guess that they've had inquiries from other same minded turners.The ci0 maker has a patent pending on their round cutters going by their ad. They must have found out what is and not available on the market.
Keep on looking!!!

Frank&Earnest
12th Jan 2010, 04:14 PM
....The ci0 maker has a patent pending on their round cutters going by their ad. They must have found out what is and not available on the market.
Keep on looking!!!

All they can do is to patent the design, i.e the shape of the cutter if none is being produced with that exact shape. Given that there are hundreds of producers for thousands of customers, beats me how they will be able to prove it, though. IMHO "patent pending" is just a marketing gimmick. And round is round. :U Anybody who was hell bent on copying it would just have to change the bevel by 1 degree... big deal!

Anyway, 5,000 is not that many if the selling price of similar products is 1-5 dollars. An investment of, say, $10,000 for the whole batch is in reach of even a very small producer, what do you say Hughie? :wink:

woodwork wally
12th Jan 2010, 11:08 PM
Anyone who wants one to try can send me one preaddressed envelope stamped with $1.10 and I will send it back with 1 insert and 1 suitable screw gratis, only stipulation is that you have to mount it on a bar, try it, photo it and post your comments. Up to 20, first come first served.



count me in for one please F&E pm me your address

Frank&Earnest
13th Jan 2010, 01:31 PM
count me in for one please F&E pm me your address

OK WWW you are on. Will send my address to all those interested in one go later. Won't be long, the parcel has already landed and only has to find its way here from VIC.

hughie
13th Jan 2010, 03:59 PM
[

Anyway, 5,000 is not that many if the selling price of similar products is 1-5 dollars. An investment of, say, $10,000 for the whole batch is in reach of even a very small producer, what do you say Hughie? :wink:Hmm, but they would have to be made in China to get that sort of pricing, maybe in the USA.
Also probably would necessary to send a sample or mock up get the idea cross. As the Chinese English and comprehension is often woeful at best.



ll they can do is to patent the design, i.e the shape of the cutter if none is being produced with that exact shape. Given that there are hundreds of producers for thousands of customers, beats me how they will be able to prove it, though. IMHO "patent pending" is just a marketing gimmick. And round is round. http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/happy/biggrin.gif Anybody who was hell bent on copying it would just have to change the bevel by 1 degree... big deal!
I think that you would need to go somewhat further than that, as a patentable idea needs to be "New and or novel" before it can proceed. 1 degree of angle would present a great deal of resistance to your application to the point of making it obvious that you were only doing what your doing ie piggy backing on another.

Round is round yes, but I think you need to come up with a different form as well angle changes.

The biggest worry is if the object comes up on the Chinese radar for copying as they don't belong to any regular world patenting bodies etc and copy at will, resting in the knowledge some body will buy them as they are so cheap

Frank&Earnest
14th Jan 2010, 11:00 AM
Sorry about my confusing expression, hughie, I do not know what the exact terminology is in the US, here I should have said "register" a design. That's what I was referring to and what makes my comment about the 1 degree realistic. I was dismissing, as you are doubting, the "patentability" of the cutter. I am not sure about China's obeyance to international patenting laws, I know that Japan did not, at least 30 years ago.

hughie
14th Jan 2010, 04:42 PM
Sorry about my confusing expression, hughie, I do not know what the exact terminology is in the US, here I should have said "register" a design. That's what I was referring to and what makes my comment about the 1 degree realistic. I was dismissing, as you are doubting, the "patentability" of the cutter. I am not sure about China's obeyance to international patenting laws, I know that Japan did not, at least 30 years ago.


No worries, the terminology is fairly standard here in Oz as the US.

Although the US is bit more tricky with granting a patent. So much so quite often a US patent will start out here, as this speeds up the process and demonstrates patentabilty in the US.

Frank&Earnest
15th Jan 2010, 12:49 PM
Guys,

1) I have been stupid.
2) None of you looked into this enough to tell me any better.
3) In my defense, advertising was at best ambiguous and I was confused by the original link where the prices were around 1-2 dollars.

What I got is 5 cutters in one packet, not 5 packets of 5. Cost of each cutter therefore $20 instead of the expected $4. And they still might not work.

The package incidentally weighs 180 grams, 150 packaging for 30 grams of cutters.
Apart the substantial cost of feeling stupid :(, if they work it is still fine: I just paid around 100 bucks for establishing that we can import them here in batches of 50 to 100 with the same postage cost, so we can have them at our door for less than $10.

Wally, I will honour my promise, even if it was obviously based on wrong assumptions, but of course I am not able to give any others away.

What I will do is to make a couple of tools and test them myself (with NeilS, who has more turning credibility than I have, if he is amenable). If between us and Wally we establish that the cutters do what is expected, then at least you all know what is available and we can take it from there for a bulk buy.

EX's Timber
15th Jan 2010, 01:05 PM
Sorry to hear that Frank.

Could you give me a link to the actual tips you've bought, as I cannot find a direct link to what you have bought in this thread.

Frank&Earnest
15th Jan 2010, 02:07 PM
Ok, I'll try.
Wood Turning (http://www.carbidedepot.com/wood-turning.htm)

I bought the 12mm ones.

And now, checking that the link works, I know what went wrong. I meant to buy 30 (6 packets) but when I went to the cart the number was 5 and I thought I had pressed the wrong button and just left it at that, too lazy to go back and change it. Had I done so, I would have got a message saying that I would have to buy in multiples of 5 and all would have been clear. Still, if they work $20 is comparable to what's around, no gain but no loss either. time to go and make the tool!

NeilS
16th Jan 2010, 11:20 AM
Bummer, Frank. But there is an upside. Thank whoever it was CIs and not aircraft that you were buying .....:U

Happy to give the round CI a spin when ready to go.

.....

Cliff Rogers
16th Jan 2010, 11:38 AM
Vermec sell the 8mm one like that for $20 & the 10mm one is $25.
http://vermec.tripod.com/PDFs/multipurposechiselset.pdf

Frank&Earnest
16th Jan 2010, 05:49 PM
OK, let's pick up the loose ends.

Cliff: Yes, they look about the same, that's why I am not upset, the price is about right.

Woodbturner: You are right, they do have a minuscule lip that was not apparent to me from the drawing in the ad. This makes me think that it could behave as a gouge if angled down about 20 degrees. Without proper machines it will be difficult to mount it that way, though. Any thougths?

Wally: I will send a PM now.

TTIT: you also expressed an interest in trying them. I can send you the last spare if you are happy with the "try and tell" arrangement. This means you might have to drill and tap the bar for a smaller screw than the Ci1, don't know whether the ci0 will work.
I'll PM my address to you also.

Neil, that's good, I'll mount the remaining three and we will have another "try and tell session" like last time.

All things going well, in a couple of weeks the cat should be well and truly out of the bag, one way or the other.

hughie
16th Jan 2010, 06:08 PM
F&E,

Sorry to hear about the stuff up :C But it seems the price is in the ball park for Oz.As for being caught out, nah it was an easy mistake to make.
Theres gotta be somebody doing the round ones for wood. The current sellers of such tools would not have the numbers to make worth while the buying of several thousand at a time.


I'll keep looking


I wonder if you could put some pics up of the cutter for all to see

Frank&Earnest
16th Jan 2010, 06:31 PM
F&E,

I wonder if you could put some pics up of the cutter for all to see

You mean the cutter itself, now? Don't know whether my pics would be any better than the official ones on line, but I could try.

Here they are. They will make more sense mounted, I hope.

hughie
16th Jan 2010, 09:51 PM
Here they are. They will make more sense mounted, I hope.


Good I can see a positive rake to the tip.How sharp is it? Ideally very sharp, if not a fine diamond file and slow speed and maybe a little kero. Set it up in the drill press and gently apply the file.

woodwork wally
18th Jan 2010, 12:44 PM
Will fix you up anyway mate Not alouda be outapocket www

Frank&Earnest
18th Jan 2010, 05:01 PM
No problem, Wally, they just cost me more than I expected, but they are a fair price.

Vern has declined to test them, he says that he knows them anyway. We'll look forward to your comments, then! :wink:

I still have one available for some guru to review, then. Any takers? Hughie?

TTIT
18th Jan 2010, 05:30 PM
Just to clarify before anyone goes poking that cute little lipped beastie into a piece of rapidly rotating redgum, from the pic at least, these cutters look the same as those used on Munro and Vermec hollowing systems - that is they need to be presented to the workpiece in a very different fashion to a scraper type disk like the Ci0 uses. Poke them straight in and that lip will grab and all hell will break loose (not trying to scare anyone :B ). The Vermec presents it's lipped cutter angled down towards the work so the inside bevel of the lip is almost vertical (I think - Cliff might clarify that one) while the Munro relies on a hood to restrict the amount of lip the cutter can offer. Either way, the cutters Frank ended up with won't "scrape" like the Ci0 insert which has a flat top.

Frank&Earnest
18th Jan 2010, 06:34 PM
Yep. Found that out just a few minutes ago by myself. Luckily poplar is softer than redgum. :D You also confirm what I suspected, that tilting down the lip works like a gouge (and tilting to the side like Woodbturner said works like shear scraping with a gouge)

It looks like there are no mysteries, then: these are cutters used by hollowers and not suitable for scraping. Maybe they can be ground flat and used as scrapers when they have become blunt?

BTW, I have bought a box of 100 countersank socket screws (M4, 0.70X12) for $24+GST and the metric tap for them. Looks like I will have a few spares.:D

I will set up a hollower, which was my reason for doing this anyway, and let you know how it went.

hughie
18th Jan 2010, 06:40 PM
I still have one available for some guru to review, then. Any takers? Hughie?[/QUOTE]

yep you can count me in. :2tsup: What do I owe for the cutter?

WOODbTURNER
18th Jan 2010, 06:43 PM
F&E, if the cutters you are getting are shaped like the Hunter one with a lip, you will have to use it on an angle as in a shear cut as it will dig in if used flat. Let me know if I'm wrong.

I guess I was right!!http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Frank&Earnest
18th Jan 2010, 06:44 PM
yep you can count me in. :2tsup: What do I owe for the cutter?

Same as Wally, although I am not so sure he's a "guru". :p A comprehensive review on alternative mounts and expected/achieved results in a couple of weeks' time. Fair price? :)

woodwork wally
18th Jan 2010, 08:05 PM
Hi Frank looks like I might try doing a munro style cap over it Wont be a major problem It will probably end up like the one I bought off Hughie [down at Ern's a couple of years ago] without the bend in the shaft That works well but I will try a staight shaft initially. just to have a differant tool ' the screw will be handy and I already have the tap. I'm not as well set up for metal working as Hughie has access to but still plenty of basics inc. a small lathe/mill system, press, grinders, welders etc. so may even try an articulated shaft later. cheers and thanks ww.Wally

Frank&Earnest
18th Jan 2010, 09:03 PM
First attempt. I cut the recess square, found out what Vern described (no major drama, though :wink:) and bent it down in my small metal vice. That was as far as I could go without destroying the bench :rolleyes:, but ideally would like it another 5-10 degrees down, which would make it virtually the same as a gouge with a fairly long sweep.
Hogs into wood like a freshly sharpened gouge should. :D Next will be the hollower with a long round bar.

BTW, Wally and Hughie, the tap for the screws is 4 x 0.7. And all I have is a drill press and a grinder.

NeilS
19th Jan 2010, 11:13 AM
Intriguing, Frank. Especially looking at that first pic. Not seen an insert tool with that orientation before. You might be onto something there.

Except for the positive rake on the edge, it's a similar profile to some Bowl Gouges grinds. But, with that positive rake on the edge, a shear slicing cut (with the tool rolled onto its side, as others have already recommended) may work a little less aggressively.

Will you use the same orientation on your long round hollowing shaft?

I can imagine the chips are flying in your workshop, if not the blanks...:U

.....

NeilS
19th Jan 2010, 11:16 AM
....... looks like I might try doing a munro style cap over it ......

....... so may even try an articulated shaft later.

Will be very interested to see what you come up with, WWW.

.....

Frank&Earnest
19th Jan 2010, 11:25 AM
Intriguing, Frank. Especially looking at that first pic. Not seen an insert tool with that orientation before. You might be onto something there.

Except for the positive rake on the edge, it's a similar profile to some Bowl Gouges grinds. But, with that positive rake on the edge, a shear slicing cut (with the tool rolled onto its side, as others have already recommended) may work a little less aggressively.

Will you use the same orientation on your long round hollowing shaft?

I can imagine the chips are flying in your workshop, if not the blanks...:U

.....

Yes Neil, but I do not think it is a new idea, if I understand Vern correctly (I have not seen the actual tool, I'll look for pictures): "The Vermec presents it's lipped cutter angled down towards the work so the inside bevel of the lip is almost vertical" . (Actually, now that I read it again, should that not be "horizontal"? That's how I interpreted it, but might be just a matter of what axis we refer to...)

Any suggestions before you test it? :U

PS the third experiment will be using a goose neck bar, to make you happy.:wink::D

TTIT
19th Jan 2010, 11:25 AM
............BTW, I have bought a box of 100 countersank socket screws (M4, 0.70X12) for $24+GST and the metric tap for them. Looks like I will have a few spares.:D...........Off the top of my head, they sound like the screws that hold the jaws on Vicmark chucks - sell 'em off in sets of 8 to the Vicmark owners Frank :2tsup: I recently bought a set of 8 for spares and paid roughly half what you paid for a whole box :doh: - not happy Jan!:~

Frank&Earnest
19th Jan 2010, 11:43 AM
Off the top of my head, they sound like the screws that hold the jaws on Vicmark chucks - sell 'em off in sets of 8 to the Vicmark owners Frank :2tsup: I recently bought a set of 8 for spares and paid roughly half what you paid for a whole box :doh: - not happy Jan!:~
Actually, when I bought those for the Supernova / GPW chuck jaws last year, they were even cheaper IIRC.:D. They are larger, though, 6mm diametre, these are only 4mm, I do not think they would be good for the Vicmark, especially if the jaws are interchangeable. If you look at my previous insert tools, those are the screws I rounded on top to hold the square inserts.

hughie
19th Jan 2010, 04:07 PM
Same as Wally, although I am not so sure he's a "guru". :p A comprehensive review on alternative mounts and expected/achieved results in a couple of weeks' time. Fair price?


Thats very fair, might be struggling with the time frame, but will see how I go. Ideally 3-4 minimum would be nice.

hughie
19th Jan 2010, 04:09 PM
"The Vermec presents it's lipped cutter angled down towards the work so the inside bevel of the lip is almost vertical" .

This is fairly standard with the Woodcut cup tool and McJings sell a cup tool also with a 10-15' angle.

Frank&Earnest
19th Jan 2010, 04:19 PM
Thats very fair, might be struggling with the time frame, but will see how I go. Ideally 3-4 minimum would be nice.

Well, that was just to ask you some sort of commitment, I can hardly send out the bailiff if you do not deliver, can I? :D

hughie
19th Jan 2010, 05:11 PM
Well, that was just to ask you some sort of commitment, I can hardly send out the bailiff if you do not deliver, can I? :D
[/QUOTE]


:U No worries, all things being equal I 'll have a go at some Norfolk pine Ray (Wheelinaround) gave me well with in the time frame, just did not want to commit and come a gutsa. :C:U
Just gotta get the lathe up and running. Its being over hauled...well a bit of a kerosene refit anyway.
But I appreciate the offer :2tsup:

Frank&Earnest
23rd Jan 2010, 06:46 PM
Here are the other two musketeers. As expected, drilling a perfectly orthogonal hole in the right place on a small surface cut by hand at an angle was not easy. I managed pretty well on the straight round shaft, but when there is also a goose neck shape to deal with...:(. Oh well, I have put a crown washer under it and hope for the best.

A few more days to make the handles and they should be ready for a test session with Neil. :;

hughie
23rd Jan 2010, 10:48 PM
Here are the other two musketeers. As expected, drilling a perfectly orthogonal hole in the right place on a small surface cut by hand at an angle was not easy. I managed pretty well on the straight round shaft, but when there is also a goose neck shape to deal with...:(. Oh well, I have put a crown washer under it and hope for the best.

Looks are not important as long as it does what its intended to do. Crown washer is that to prevent it coming loose?

Goose neck, just put a second bend in your right angle bend shaft and it will work fine. :2tsup:

Frank&Earnest
24th Jan 2010, 11:32 AM
Looks are not important as long as it does what its intended to do. Crown washer is that to prevent it coming loose?

Goose neck, just put a second bend in your right angle bend shaft and it will work fine. :2tsup:

The thinking (totally uneducated guess :-) behind the crown washer is to pack the thin uneven gap between the shaft and the cutter caused by the screw being not perfectly orthogonal to the surface. Had it been the straight shaft I would just have cut it off and tried again, but could not do that without killing the bend. As regards the second bend, I was thinking of testing this tool shape first, thinking that the lever action would be tolerable given the short length of the overhang, becuse of the better accessibility.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated. :)

NeilS
25th Jan 2010, 09:57 AM
As regards the second bend, I was thinking of testing this tool shape first, thinking that the lever action would be tolerable given the short length of the overhang, becuse of the better accessibility.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated. :)

Frank, the Sorby 8803H Hollower (2nd pic attached) allows for a small amount of offset without a counter curve, but it gets a bit toey if you offset it more than about 25<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/BRON%26N%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->. An offset side handle helps. Sorby also provides its 8803H with an arm brace option, which indicates that they think it needs it.

So, not sure how manageable your hollower would be with the arm at a full 90<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/BRON%26N%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> without either a counterbalancing goose neck or some form of offset handle. Well, I'm not sure I could manage it....:o

Perhaps not a solution for you at this stage of your tool development, but have a look at the shaft design in the 1st attached pic. An interesting solution to counterbalancing hollowers. Would eliminate both unintended and any desired shaft rotation.

My turn to have you over for the test run, Frank, but I'm flat chat battling to complete some exhibition pieces by the end of this week, so it will have to be after that for me.

.....

Frank&Earnest
25th Jan 2010, 02:46 PM
Thanks Neil. I was thinking of attaching a side handle borrowed from the grinder, but if you think even that would not be enough (incidentally, can't see any reason why the cutter must be held horizontally: vertically or on any other radius should work also) I'll put another bend in the shaft.

Thanks for the offer to come to your place, much appreciated, but if it is inconvenient for any reason do not worry, I would be quite happy to repeat the previous experience... my shed needs another cleaning and I need a big incentive to do it!:D

WOODbTURNER
25th Jan 2010, 06:14 PM
F&E,

Looking at your cup tool reminded me of my old Hiturn cup hollowing tool which was made by Teknatool years ago. I'm pretty sure Woodcut in NZ make it now. I find it very handy.

http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gifhttp://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

NeilS
25th Jan 2010, 10:56 PM
F&E,

Looking at your cup tool reminded me of my old Hiturn cup hollowing tool which was made by Teknatool years ago. I'm pretty sure Woodcut in NZ make it now. I find it very handy.

http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gifhttp://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

Hadn't realised so many of this type of cup hollowing tool had been developed. Starting to see some similarities, which is a hopeful sign.

.....

Frank&Earnest
26th Jan 2010, 02:09 PM
Yep. I must apply for the Guinness' Book of Records to recognise me for the Largest Number of Reinvented Wheels. :D

On one hand, I am proud of my ability to invent, even is somebody else has done it first. After all, it was Bell who made the money, although Meucci invented the telephone. :D

On the other hand, this means that the original idea did not take off for some reason. True, there could be some instance of being too far ahead of its time, but normally...:D

NeilS
26th Jan 2010, 02:19 PM
Thanks Neil. I was thinking of attaching a side handle borrowed from the grinder, but if you think even that would not be enough

If I think of the bend as the location of virtual toolrest, then visualise how long a shaft and handle would need to extend beyond that virtual toolrest to handle that amount of overhang (approx 50mm) then I'd be looking for at least a 12" handle.

(incidentally, can't see any reason why the cutter must be held horizontally: vertically or on any other radius should work also)

Agreed, that is why the key advantage of that alternative hollowing tool design (which eliminated both unintended and desired shaft rotation) is also its major drawback.

I'll put another bend in the shaft.

Good move!

Thanks for the offer to come to your place, much appreciated, but if it is inconvenient for any reason do not worry, I would be quite happy to repeat the previous experience... my shed needs another cleaning and I need a big incentive to do it!:D

Now, Frank, if you want me to clean my shed before having you over that may be some time off..... I do clean mine... but only when I can't reach (down to) the toolrest anymore....:U

....


.....

Frank&Earnest
26th Jan 2010, 04:06 PM
Now, Frank, if you want me to clean my shed before having you over that may be some time off..... I do clean mine... but only when I can't reach (down to) the toolrest anymore....http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/happy/biggrin.gif

OK, OK, I see it will come down to who has the best liability cover, then. :U



.... kinky enough for you now? :D

NeilS
28th Jan 2010, 11:14 AM
Looking the goods there Frank.

Starting to look seriously dangerous.... :oo:

Must check my public liability policy...:U

Or have you already tamed it?

.....

Frank&Earnest
28th Jan 2010, 12:25 PM
Nope. Briefly tried the square shafted one without handle and it requires some practice to control it, it is rather aggressive. In soft wood it does not really "catch", it just cuts a lot deeper than intended if you do not "tame" it :wink:. As Vern said, it is not the round scraper I was looking for at the beginning.

WOODbTURNER
13th Feb 2010, 03:29 PM
Finally made a rough Ci0 rip off.
Got a 16mm Ci0 cutter with a (8g x 32tpi?) screw for $25.00 off a mate who put in an order with Craft Supply USA. It was a bit rich but they cost about the same for smaller ones in Aust.
Is it worth it? The cutter and screw $25.00, 12mm square s/s bar $8.00 and set of taps $24.00 for total of $57.00. I think it was worth it as I made the bar to fit both the round and square cutters.
Tried it on a mahogany bowl and it cuts sweet leaving a smooth surface and shavings. There was no dig in when used flat as with the "lipped" cutters. I reckon it might make my scrapers obsolete.
If you want to make one, I think you have to bite the bullet and buy an original Ci0 cutter from the USA instead of stuffing around trying to buy a cheaper version. I reckon I wasted days on the net trying.
Be carefull as they are bloody sharp as!!
Will post pictures as soon as I can work it out!!

WOODbTURNER
13th Feb 2010, 05:58 PM
Cutter Photos


http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gifhttp://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gifhttp://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gifhttp://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gifhttp://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gifhttp://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

TTIT
13th Feb 2010, 11:48 PM
Good one Woodb' :2tsup: - I will probably end up buying one the same way but I'm basically stubborn, especially when I know they only cost a quarter of that if I could just find the manufacturer :C

WOODbTURNER
14th Feb 2010, 12:31 AM
TTIT,

Let us know if you find them.

Cheers

NeilS
14th Feb 2010, 01:27 PM
TTIT,

Let us know if you find them.

Cheers


:whs:.....please!


.....

Frank&Earnest
14th Feb 2010, 03:28 PM
Ditto. I refuse to believe that a bunch of intelligent people like us :p can't find it. Should we have a prize for the first one who does? :wink:

Well done WbT.:2tsup:

NeilS
15th Feb 2010, 09:25 AM
.

Should we have a prize for the first one who does? :wink:



Yes, as on the cooking show, Iron Chef, they will get "the people's ovation and fame forever"...... :U

.....

Frank&Earnest
16th Feb 2010, 02:21 PM
Yes, as on the cooking show, Iron Chef, they will get "the people's ovation and fame forever"...... :U

.....

So, forever = 15 minutes? Sounds about right...:wink: I know of the existence of a round 11mm flat cutter and inquired whether they make 16mm ones. Will keep you posted.

NeilS
16th Feb 2010, 06:09 PM
So, forever = 15 minutes? Sounds about right...:wink:



Yeah, that's about right, according to the man...:U

Good hunting!

.....

Bitshird
18th Feb 2010, 03:27 PM
G'day gents, I hate to barge in to a thread like this , particularly being a new kid on ther block, My name is Ken Ferrell, I;m a Yank obviously! and I make Carbide turning tool, I've sold inserts to several gents on your forum, and today shipped a complete tool with extra inserts,to John Crane I've been a bit leary of shipping to Australia due to the cost, I make several tools that are very similar to the Easy Wood Tools, Mine are called Woodchucks, and I have built a solid reputation on service and price, I don't use the inserts from Global simply because they are made i China, the Inserts I sell are the very best anbd meet stringent ISO standards which there's don't
John Crane will be getting the first complete tool I've sent to Australia My tools are made by me from 304 Stainless steel and use Stainless steel screws , except the 11mm round, I have inserts in 14 mm square 15mm x2.5 square, and also 115 mm x 2,5 with a 100 mm radius and also with a 50mm radius, for references take a look at the penturners.org site (IAP) look in the business classifieds and also at my tool site which is pretty poorly done, it's located at Tools (http://www.woodchuck-tools.com/Tools.htm)
I have sent inserts to several turners Down Under and the price really isn't that bad, while at first the Global inserts seem like a good deal my inserts will last longer,
Please don't thin I'm trying to cut any ones business, I just make a better tool at half the price of the Easy Rougher from Easy Wood Tools.
By the way thanks for having me on your forums, I honestly didn't join just to advertise my tools but I saw the subject and had to reply.
Ken Ferrell
Woodchuck Lathe Tools.

TTIT
18th Feb 2010, 04:58 PM
Ken we're chasing a source of the round carbide cutters as used on the 'Ci0 Finisher' at this stage but I couldn't see them on your site :shrug: Can you supply them????

EX's Timber
18th Feb 2010, 05:11 PM
Ken we're chasing a source of the round carbide cutters as used on the 'Ci0 Finisher' at this stage but I couldn't see them on your site :shrug: Can you supply them????

Vern in his Thread on the Penturners site, he lists a 11mm round insert for US$13.75 with screw or US$11.75 without screw.

"http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=53623"

TTIT
18th Feb 2010, 05:29 PM
Vern in his Thread on the Penturners site, he lists a 11mm round insert for US$13.75 with screw or US$11.75 without screw.

"http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=53623"Thanks DJ. Hmmmmm :think: The Ci0 cutter looked a bit bigger than 11mm but it could just be my perception of it :shrug: Calm??? Jefferson???? anyone got a ruler???

WOODbTURNER
18th Feb 2010, 08:04 PM
TTIT,

They are 16mm dia with 8g x 32 tpi screw.(Ci0)

RETIRED
18th Feb 2010, 08:07 PM
Thanks DJ. Hmmmmm :think: The Ci0 cutter looked a bit bigger than 11mm but it could just be my perception of it :shrug: Calm??? Jefferson???? anyone got a ruler???16MM.:cool:

Frank&Earnest
18th Feb 2010, 11:53 PM
Ken, are your 11mm round inserts made in USA, imported from Germany or imported from China albeit from a better supplier?