Air Motor

[Ed Reiss]

How is it that this motor isn't in every car everywhere...and more importantly in every lathe!!??

Anyone in Melborne up to going over there to check it out?:D


www.engineair.com.au (http://www.engineair.com.au/index.htm)

[cultana]

They forgot to mention:
1. how big the tanks of compressed air are to make it run.
2. consumption rates.
3. tank pressure.

It is only good if you can fill the tanks up at home with your own private air compressor.

[nihilism]

They forgot to mention:
1. how big the tanks of compressed air are to make it run.
2. consumption rates.
3. tank pressure.

It is only good if you can fill the tanks up at home with your own private air compressor.

And even then, how much is it going cost you to run this air compressor?

[Ed Reiss]

...hmmmmm, well I'm certainly not an engineer, but how about linking the motor to a compressor generator and feeding that air supply back into the motor?

[hughie]

Well Ed I guess the nay sayers will quote the Conservation of Energy Law. But certainly there would be some lift available to offset the power requirements.


The Di Pietro motor, developed by Engineair in Brooklyn, Victoria, offers an outstanding reduction in air consumption compared to conventional air motors, and together with its high torque capability makes a mobile application such as the market burden carrier technically and economically feasible.


No doubt the compressed air tanks would hold a very high pressure,probably in excess of 2000psi [ or around 14 megapascal ] and with that I am not sure of how much benefit would be in using the exhaust in re compression here.

[chambezio]

This is a very interesting concept. I can only just grasp the principal but he could be on a winner. We need thinkers like this bloke to be "outhere" ahead of us so we, as a race, can adjust and move forward.
My hope for him is that he can survive the "Knockers" and be able to succeed.
To get to supply those transporters at Melbourne Market would be a great start for him. With the way we are being brainwashed for fresh and healthy fruit and veg, to have an air powered vehicle passing by our next salad would have to be better than eating that same salad that has been exposed to 2 stroke exhaust from the existing transporters.
One question that comes to mind is.... What happened to Ralph Sarrich? Remember his Orbital Engine was going to be the power plant for every vehicle (well nearly)? What happened to him?

[BobL]

No doubt the compressed air tanks would hold a very high pressure,probably in excess of 2000psi .

2000 psi? - I guess that rules out my $99 bunny special?

[damian]

Oh god, the ameture inventor again.

If I had a dollar for every half wit with a half baked idea that's tried to sell it to me, then accused me of everything from anti-progress to trying to stealing their "world changing" idea I would be rather wealthier than I am now.

I had for a time the unfortunate combination of employment with csiro and moving in circles well polulated with these people. It's wonderful how ignorance of physics can allow the enthusiastic idiot to just assume the miriad problems will somehow get "sorted out" because they are just "details" and how they imagine they have come up with an idea no one else has had.

You lose efficiency when you compress the air. You lose it when the air expands. You need an energy source to compress the air. You need a safe way to store the air on board a vehicle moving at speed and potentially being hit hard and fast by something else. Ever seen what happens when an pressurised bottle ruptures or has it's top knocked off ? It's like a big F'n bomb.

The fact is the ford focus diesel runs on almost no fuel at all, leaves the prius miles behind (and is somewhat less likely to kill you), costs $25k full retail and you can refuel it and get it serviced anywhere. Why would you bother ?

[Manuka Jock]

...hmmmmm, well I'm certainly not an engineer, but how about linking the motor to a compressor generator and feeding that air supply back into the motor?
Is that like the electric engine that runs a generator that powers the engine ?

ever decreasing semi perpetual motion .... :U

[hughie]

[ What happened to Ralph Sarrich? Remember his Orbital Engine was going to be the power plant for every vehicle (well nearly)? What happened to him?
[/QUOTE]



What happned to the Australian Sarich engine? (http://unasked.com/question/view/id/12802)

and then we have

The Hilton Centrifical Engine (http://www.linux-host.org/energy/shilton.html)

and for the diehards

Rotary Internal-Combustion Engines. (http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/museum/POWER/unusualICeng/rotaryIC/rotaryIC.htm)

[orraloon]

I can see some applications where it would be handy and if it uses less air than other air driven thingies then good.
Being smart enough to build the thing he should have been smart enough to steer clear of the NO POLLUTION claim. Where is the air coming from? Perhaps a treadle compressor.

[Ed Reiss]

Is that like the electric engine that runs a generator that powers the engine ?

ever decreasing semi perpetual motion .... :U
like I said MJ, I'm not an engineer (good reason for that!!!) :D

[damian]

Couple of things.

I will never forget our teck teacher showing the class the sarich video, standing back saying nothing then asking us when it was over what we thought of it. Most of the class didn't get it, I of course stuck my hand up and listed the multitude problems it had. Mind I didn't spot all of them. I worked for a time with people who'd been involved in trying to solve the induction problems. I have the utmost respect for Phil Irving and as usual he spotted all that I did plus a dozen other issues I'd missed.

Wankel was a very clever engineer. A seal expert his origional design was fine, until the managers got at it, turned it inside out and stuffed it. It took 20 years to even begin to solve the problems they created. I've read several of his text books and he was a much smarter cookie than I will ever be.

The only sensible application for air engines is intrinsicly safe enviroments where electricity and combustable fuels present signifigant hazards. You consume energy to compress the air, you lose signifigant potential energy in compressing it and expanding it, you have less than 100% efficiency in the motor itself. There are just much better systems.

Consider pelletised aluminium doped with gallium, and water. Pass water over the alumium and it strips the oxygen to creat aluminium oxide. The gallium prevents the skin forming so the reaction continues. The hydrogen bubbles off in a controlled way and you dump it into your motor and drive your car. The car is about 300 kg heavier because of the fuel and the aluminium is reclaimed at a refinery located close to an efficient generator. Gallium is reclaimed. Total pollution load is signifigantly less than petrol car and provided infrastructure is in place the ecomonics get close to petrol.

Also search on "bluegen", an australian developed fuel cell system for home electricity generation from gas. Low emmissions, low cost.

Smart ideas are out there, but the world is full of ignorance and deciept.

[artme]

I think the key point about this engine is that there is no pollution emitted by the engine itself. That is a MAJOR plus for working in environments such as the fruit markets.

I saw tis demonstrated on "The Inventors". The tanks are either carbon fibre or wrapped in carbon fibre for strength.

With the current push for PV solar panels there is no reason why the required capacity to compress air couldn't be met with electricity generated this way.

I find Damien's Reply somewhat perplexing. The man is not an amateur inventer - he is an Engineer. In any case does being an Amateur rule one out of inventing?
You also misse the point of this motor's current demonstrated use, I think, Damien. You cannot really compare it YET to the Ford Focus as ther is no road going version of it.

God help the world if everyone took your cynical view.

[Farnk]

Couple of things.

Sarich was worse than a hair brained inventor, he was a con man who made $70 million dollars out of signing contracts he didn't honour and promoting an engine that would never be practical. I will never forget our teck teacher showing the class the sarich video, standing back saying nothing then asking us when it was over what we thought of it. Most of the class didn't get it, I of course stuck my hand up and listed the multitude problems it had. Mind I didn't spot all of them. I worked for a time with people who'd been involved in trying to solve the induction problems. I have the utmost respect for Phil Irving and as usual he spotted all that I did plus a dozen other issues I'd missed.

Wankel was a very clever engineer. A seal expert his origional design was fine, until the managers got at it, turned it inside out and stuffed it. It took 20 years to even begin to solve the problems they created. I've read several of his text books and he was a much smarter cookie than I will ever be.

The only sensible application for air engines is intrinsicly safe enviroments where electricity and combustable fuels present signifigant hazards. You consume energy to compress the air, you lose signifigant potential energy in compressing it and expanding it, you have less than 100% efficiency in the motor itself. There are just much better systems.

Consider pelletised aluminium doped with gallium, and water. Pass water over the alumium and it strips the oxygen to creat aluminium oxide. The gallium prevents the skin forming so the reaction continues. The hydrogen bubbles off in a controlled way and you dump it into your motor and drive your car. The car is about 300 kg heavier because of the fuel and the aluminium is reclaimed at a refinery located close to an efficient generator. Gallium is reclaimed. Total pollution load is signifigantly less than petrol car and provided infrastructure is in place the ecomonics get close to petrol.

Also search on "bluegen", an australian developed fuel cell system for home electricity generation from gas. Low emmissions, low cost.

Smart ideas are out there, but the world is full of ignorance and deciept.


Your tech teacher was Phil Irving??
Respect mate, respect! :2tsup:
I have two copies of 'Tuning for speed', one in the shed mostly covered in oily fingerprints, and a pristine copy on the bookshelf!

[damian]

Farnk:

No, and I never actually met him which I will always regret. I have several friends who knew him quite well and I read everything he wrote.

artme:

Yep it's passable as a site vehicle, although electric vehicles are probably better. Note the origional post was about fitting it to "every car" and everything else...

I have no issue with anyone inventing anything, my problem is I've been plagued for much of my life with people getting in my ear about some "revolutionary" breakthrough that isn't. Some as I said are just ignorant, some are thieves, but it's a sore point with me. I started out being polite but after dozens of these people abused me for trying to educate them I just got fed up. The problem with "inventors" is they are so invested in their ideas that when you explain why it isn't going to work they resent it. I'm just sick of being abused. I grant you my responses are....terse :)

I have had the pleasure of seing soem great work in my time, some stuff that will probably never see the light of day but that could offer good demonstrable improvements. Those are often killed by the long and expensive process of making them marketable. I'm all for good ideas and innovation, afterall most of my life has been in research, product development and design. I love seeing someone with a better idea than mine. I also take tremendous offense at being told I'm a liar, thief or ignorant because I see the flaws in someone else's "invention". I specifically don't watch the inventors because on the few occasions I have all I see is stuff that already exists (often in a better form) or stuff that ain't gunnu work. It's very frustrating.

[Texian]

Any chance that this is the same Andy DiPietro who posts amazing sandblasted oak turnings on WoW? Just wondering.

[artme]

I once saw an engine demonstrted at a show in Brisbane. It was made by a company called Revtec _ I think. Idea was great. Compact, high power output. Wonder what happened to it.:?:?:?

As for Sarich, I remember my brother rubbishing the engine many years ago on the basis of Phil Irving's opinions.I Have read though that there was some excellent spin off technology from Sarich and his research. Don't remember what it is, or is supposed to be.

When I think about it there have been numerous revolutionary engines that have faded into obscurity and some that have bee a good idea but a bad thing. Here I am thinking of the Miller Cycle engine for instance. Immense power but immense fuel consumption!

The truly good advances in engine design, that allow for cleaner burning and lower emmissions and fuel usage, have come from the application of computer technology, not from "new" engines

[joe greiner]

...hmmmmm, well I'm certainly not an engineer, but how about linking the motor to a compressor generator and feeding that air supply back into the motor?
This is a little like feeding your hungry dog with snippets from his tail. Even if new tail could grow, it wouldn't grow fast enough to sustain consumption.

Roughly 1% - 2% of patents awarded generate profitable enterprises. Ninety per cent of the effort is needed to secure a patent. Another 90%, or more, is needed to develop a marketable product, and sell it.

Almost anything can be awarded a patent. Go to Google patents ( Google Patents (http://www.google.com/patents) ) and enter [6025810] for enlightenment: A communications signal faster than the speed of light.:rolleyes:

God bless the inventors, though. When perpetual motion is discovered, the patent will probably expire before it can produce useful work, beyond keeping itself running. Meanwhile, spinoffs could be genuinely innovative.

Cheers,
Joe

[Ed Reiss]

Any chance that this is the same Andy DiPietro who posts amazing sandblasted oak turnings on WoW? Just wondering.

No Texian...it's not Andy, he lives here in my neck of the woods.
I did e-mail Andy the link, he thought it was funny since they both share the last name and both are engineers. Small world!!

[Texian]

Thanks Ed.

[Paul39]

Here are a couple of old ideas along the same line:

Fireless locomotive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireless_locomotive)

[Ed Reiss]

Well, if nothing else, this post has shown just how diverse the woodworking community is.

Certainly have learned some about the difficulties in manufacturing and implementing new products...thanks guys.:U

[woodwork wally]

From an engineering point of view there aint no such thing as a free lunch If you want x hp then you need to put in y fuel Now efficiency of putting that power to use has to be calculated with regards many things Does it run on high volume low pressure or the reverse of same. It would be fine in situations where hydrocarbons or even electricity could not be used in the direct application and compressed air was the only permissable way and was already being used in a big way IE an explosive factory or where one needed to mix volatile mixtures where the air supply was generated off site { in a separate bunker ] but to run a car on it or even a lathe the economies would be way out of balance.Yes this unit does have a place in industry but not on a lathe or car To qualify my writings -- many years in oil refinery and then in automation design using air power when and as required . Cheers to all www

[Paul39]

A friend worked in an Amish cabinet shop and told me about use of air motors.

From: The Technium: Amish Hackers (http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2009/02/amish_hackers_a.php)

The Amish also make a distinction between technology they have at work and technology they have at home. I remember an early visit to an Amish man who ran a woodworking shop near Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Most of the interior of the dark building was lit naturally from windows, but hanging over the wooden meeting table in a very cluttered room was a single electrical light bulb. The host saw me staring at it, and when I looked at him, he just shrugged and said that it was for the benefit of visitors like myself.
However while the rest of his large workshop lacked electricity beyond that naked bulb, it did not lack power machines. The place was vibrating with an ear-cracking racket of power sanders, power saws, power planers, power drills and so on. Everywhere I turned there were bearded men covered in saw dust pushing wood through screaming machines. This was not a circle of Renaissance craftsman hand tooling masterpieces. This was a small-time factory cranking out wooden furniture with machine power. But where was the power coming from? Not from windmills.
The boss, Amos (not his real name: the Amish prefer not to call attention to themselves), takes me around to the back where a huge dump-truck-sized diesel generator sits. It's massive. In addition to a gas engine there is a very large tank, which I learn, stores compressed air. The diesel engine burns fuel to drive the compressor that fills the reservoir with pressure. From the tank a series of high-pressure pipes snake off toward every corner of the factory. A hard rubber flexible hose connects each tool to a pipe. The entire shop runs on compressed air. Every piece of machine is running on pneumatic power. Amos even shows me a pneumatic switch, which you can flick like a light switch, to turn on some paint-drying fans.
The Amish call this pneumatic system "Amish electricity." At first pneumatics were devised for Amish workshops, but it was seen as so useful that air-power migrated to Amish households. In fact there is an entire cottage industry in retrofitting tools and appliances to Amish electricity. The retrofitters buy a heavy-duty blender, say, and yank out the electrical motor. They then substitute an air-powered motor of appropriate size, add pneumatic connectors, and bingo, your Amish mom now has a blender in her electrical-less kitchen. You can get a pneumatic sewing machine, and a pneumatic washer/dryer (with propane heat). In a display of pure steam-punk nerdiness, Amish hackers try to outdo each other in building pneumatic versions of electrified contraptions. Their mechanical skill is quite impressive, particularly since none went beyond the 8th grade. They love to show off this air-punk geekiness. And every tinkerer I met claimed that pneumatics were superior to electrical devices because air was more powerful and durable, outlasting motors which burned out after a few years hard labor. I don't know if this is true, or just justification, but it was a constant refrain.
I visited one retrofit workshop run by a strict Mennonite. Marlin was a short beardless man (no beards for the Mennonites). He uses a horse and buggy, has no phone, but electricity runs in the shop behind his home. They use electricity to make pneumatic parts. Like most of his community, his kids work along side him. A few of his boys use a propane powered fork lift with metal wheels (no rubber so you can't drive it on the road) to cart around stacks of heavy metal as they manufacture very precise milled metal parts for pneumatic motors and for kerosene cooking stoves, an Amish favorite. The tolerances needed are a thousand of an inch. So a few years ago they installed a massive, $400,000 computer-controlled milling (CNC) machine in his backyard, behind the horse stable. This massive half-million dollar tool is about the dimensions of a delivery truck. It is operated by his 14-year old daughter, in a bonnet. With this computer controlled machine she makes parts for grid-free horse and buggy living.
One can't say "electricity-free" because I kept finding electricity in Amish homes. Once you have a huge diesel generator running behind your barn to power the refrigeration units that store the milk (the main cash crop for the Amish), it's a small thing to stick on a small electrical generator. For re-charging batteries, say. You can find battery-powered calculators, flashlights, electric fences, and generator-powered electric welders on Amish farms. The Amish also use batteries to run a radio or phone (outside in the barn or shop), or to power the required headlights and turn signals on their horse buggies. One clever Amish fellow spent a half hour telling me the ingenious way he hacked up a mechanism to make a buggy turn signal automatically turn off when the turn was finished, just as it does in your car.
Nowadays solar panels are becoming popular among the Amish. With these they can get electricity without being tied to the grid, which was their main worry. Solar is used primarily for utilitarian chores like pumping water, but it will slowly leak into the household. As do most innovations.

[bri916]

Google Richard Clem, interesting stuff

[damian]

I have a bridge I'd like to sell you....