Easy Finisher, Ci0 - any experience out there?

[rsser]

Have been sent one of these for comment. Can't use it yet so wondered if anyone out there has. Steven Russell in his monthly turning email, Lathe Talk, from the US reports favorably.

Initial impressions I have and some q's:

1. Finish is very good indeed.

2. It's clever to have rounded a shaft for mounting. It's 1/2", with a flat face for a grub screw, which will be popular with those who use modular handles. It's also clever to have machined some rings in the rod for those who'll be gluing it into a home-made handle.

An allen key is provided to allow the user to rotate the disc; it's prob some wacky US thread size but there's a close metric equiv to the key so you don't need to sweat if the orig key gets dropped into a pile of shavings.

From the TCT to the end of the square section is 22mm. This should allow generous reach inside a bowl with the tool rest end moved into it.

3. Competition. Closest I can see is made in Aus; that's a multi-purpose chisel set from Vermec with a TCT cup cutter and a HSS disc shear scraper. Vermec's Tools (http://www.vermec.com/id1.html) Shaft with shear scraper disc is $93.50.

Downside is that the Vermec is not TCT, upside is that you can roll the shaft so that the wood is travelling at c. 45 degrees to the cutting edge. This will usually provide less tear-out around the end grain of a bowl. Shear scraping is common here in Aus and that you can't with the Easy Finisher may turn some folk off the idea. On the other hand, there was a good deal of scepticism here about the Easy Rougher and now a fair few guys are making their own.

The other source of comp'n will be the std method of finishing, which is to use a round edge scraper.

4. Maintainability. Few turners would have a green wheel on their bench grinder, and that would leave a poor edge in any case. A fine diamond hone would refresh the edge to some degree. Disc replacement costs would be a matter of interest to prospective purchasers.

That said, this partic tool may not have to be turned to a shear angle as the bevel is polished, and the top not far off it. We know from scraper tests from the US that a big advantage is gained when the edge is honed to turn up a fine burr. What if the principle from flatwork bench tools also applied here, ie. the less ragged the edge and the smaller the edge radius, the longer the tool lasts and the finer the finish?

If anyone in Melb would like to drop around to test it, I can provide a bowl and mount the Easy Finisher in a modular handle.

[Grumpy John]

I could drop over Ern and give assistance with the right hand :p :D.

[jefferson]

Ern,

I've had a Ci0 for some time. My tool of choice for finishing most things. Inside of boxes and bowls etc etc..... :2tsup::2tsup:

More reports later, playing with its baby cousin of late.

[rsser]

I could drop over Ern and give assistance with the right hand :p :D.

Cool. New lathe tango: your right hand and my left on the scraper (wasn't gunna say tool :- )

Thanks Jeff, look forward to hearing about your experience.

[rsser]

Well I mounted a somewhat unbalanced lump of Blackwood that GJ had cored when last over. The Woodcut bowl saver uses a scraping action, and the surface left was surprisingly good - it was the tip's first outing if I'm not mistaken.

I divided the inside into two bands and went to work on the inside one. Easy Finisher is apt as a title as the square shaft sits on the tool rest with no need for rotation - ideal for this turner at the moment.

The surface had to be trued as well as smoothed.

The tool takes good shavings. A light touch and smooth sweep are needed. When starting I got a couple of digs but that was me just being ham-fisted on my return to tool use. The finish is as good or prob better than what could have been achieved with other tools.

Long grain was almost polished, and end grain showed very minor evidence of tear-out.

This is somewhat brittle blackwood, and the imbalance meant the lathe was rocking a bit.

In short, a pretty impressive result.

At the right price I would buy this tool.

How long the edge would continue to produce the result I got, and how exxy the replacement tips are, affect the value proposition and I can't comment on that.

[TTIT]

.........At the right price I would buy this tool..........I was equally impressed when I gave Calm's a short spin but I'm damned if I'll pay that much for something with no work in it. I'm happy to cough up if I can see some manufacturing involved in the construction like my Proforme Flexicut or my Maxicut forstner bits but asking that much for a lump of square bar with a hole in the end gets my back up :~:~:~ . . . . . . I'll just keep looking for the cutters at a reasonable price - the rest is childs play :shrug:

[rsser]

The prices paid for the Easy Tools are those bought individuallyfrom the US as I understand it. There is the unknown question of their cost from an Australian distributor should one be appointed. So I'm trying to separate the value proposition from the tool performance for the moment.

[rsser]

So I've just done a comparo with what's said to be the best scraper edge treatment:

Munro tear-drop HSS scraper, top lapped, top and bevel honed with an extra-fine diamond lap, and a burr turned up with the same lap. Bevel 90 degrees. Used in shear orientation.

Result: better on end-grain (tear out not visible), worse on long-grain (little polishing effect). Somewhat harder to control with a weak right hand so better results might be possible, and particularly if the top were as polished as the bevel on the Ci0. I started on that but ran out of strength.

In short, on av. I'd say that the results were almost as good as the Ci0, perhaps better cos of a reduced need to sand out the end grain. (OTOH, I would've lived with the v. minor tear-out left by the Ci0). But harder to achieve as the lapping and burr turning take a bit of time. Bevel honing freehand needs a steady hand; wouldn't be hard to make a jig though. Of course, lapping only needs to be done once; burr removal, bevel polishing and burr turning need to be done more often but only takes a minute or two. How much more often? Dunno. How long would the Ci0 edge last while cutting as cleanly as new, dunno either. Needs a longer term test.

An acute bevel angle on the tear-drop scraper might yield a different result.

Added: the scraper produced dust rather than shavings. I'd count this as a minus. OTOH if you were fussy, you'd be doing more sanding to remove the tear-out produced by the Ci0.

I count myself fussy re finishing but expect that the minor filling effect of my preferred DO would all but obscure the Ci0 defects.

[jefferson]

Ern,

I've tipped the Ci0 on its side to sheer scrape with excellent results. Little ridges that sand out easily but absolutely no tearout. Just a suggestion.

As for costs of the Ci0 inserts, I just paid $20 at TurnFest for a tiny cutter for my Vermec tools!

And also, I can sharpen the Ci0 inserts superbly on my Tormek with the black wheel. Now, super sharp.

[rsser]

What's the grit rating of the Black wheel, Jeff?

....

With my test though it was only a couple of inches of sweep, I got no ridges at all by the way.

[RETIRED]

Grindstones the Tormek Way (http://www.tormek.com/en/accessories/grindstones/index.php)

[rsser]

Thanks . So same grit as the original, coarse graded.

I'd be interested to see what kind of polish it leaves, if any.

[rsser]

I asked Craig Jackson to comment on this minor test, esp. re edge life. Some points he made which are included in the FAQ (http://www.easywoodtools.com/faq.php)on his site:

1. Life: 5 hours per edge on hard maple (Janka rating c. 1450 pounds force; Jarrah's Janka is c. 1900; Brush Box 2135; source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test))

2. For final cuts, to get the best finish use a fresh edge and slow down the rate of feed

3. The Finisher works better on hard timbers than on soft. There are techniques for improving the finish on soft timbers, one of which Jeff has mentioned.

[rsser]

Just for info, EasyWood now supplies the mid- and full-size Rougher, Finisher and Detailer in unhandled form. That's Ci2-4, and Ci0, 1 & 4. Prices from USD 95 to 115.

[corbs]

I know its probably a question no one wants to answer in an open forum due to potential copywrite issues but would it be feasible to buy some 1/2" square HSS section from somewhere like McJings (http://www.mcjing.com.au/categorybrowser.aspx?categoryid=75), drill & tap an end then just buy the cutters? Handles are easy enough to make and a square hole isn't that much harder than a round one. I haven't done any metal work so not sure how hard it would be to work or if its even possible but would be interested in peoples opinion.

Sorry for the potential hijack, I have done a bit of reading about the Ci1 & Ci0 and am very interested in one of each but the finances don't allow me to stretch that far.

Corbs

[rsser]

G'day Corbs, just do a search on Easy Rougher, TCT or carbide inserts etc and you'll find lots of posts from folk who've made their own. You wouldn't need HSS for the shaft.

[dai sensei]

I know its probably a question no one wants to answer in an open forum due to potential copywrite issues but would it be feasible to buy some 1/2" square HSS section from somewhere like McJings (http://www.mcjing.com.au/categorybrowser.aspx?categoryid=75), drill & tap an end then just buy the cutters? Handles are easy enough to make and a square hole isn't that much harder than a round one. I haven't done any metal work so not sure how hard it would be to work or if its even possible but would be interested in peoples opinion.

Sorry for the potential hijack, I have done a bit of reading about the Ci1 & Ci0 and am very interested in one of each but the finances don't allow me to stretch that far.

Corbs

I'm sure there are many of us that could make their own, but it all comes down to how much you value your time, and how much enjoyment you get out of making this sort of thing. For me it was easier to just buy unhandled versions, and the quality is really good.

I would have thought the unhandled version would equate to just 1 or 2 pens for you at the gallery Corbs :rolleyes::U

[rsser]

FWIW I can say that there's an Aussie WW tool supplier who is looking at distributing/retailing the Easy Wood tools here, so the value proposition should improve if that comes off.

Edit: and to add, I've done this evaluation of the Easy Finisher on his behalf. I stand to receive no benefit from this work. I call it as I see it. Next up will the the Rougher and Detailer on the same basis.

[corbs]

Neil,
I would much rather have the real thing over make my own but its going to cost me over $250 to get the Ci0 & Ci1 unhandled delivered to Australia (I would get a couple of spare cutters for each). That said, I don't mind the idea of making my own but I would rather be cutting wood over steel.

Ern,
Not asking who, but any idea of when an Australian supplier might be bringing them in? If the prices are competative then I am almost definately in. If it ends up being another situation like another product (not wood related) I am after then I will make my own or import myself. Here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f43/australian-price-vs-us-price-113151/) is a thread I started on the other product if you're interested.

Corbs

[TTIT]

I know its probably a question no one wants to answer in an open forum due to potential copywrite issues but would it be feasible to buy some 1/2" square HSS section from somewhere like McJings (http://www.mcjing.com.au/categorybrowser.aspx?categoryid=75), drill & tap an end then just buy the cutters? .............I doubt you could patent a lump of square bar with a threaded hole in it :shrug: . You won't tap a hole in HSS without some serious metallurgy taking place first :no:. The square bars used are 13mm stainless steel which you can drill and tap if your careful. I picked some up in Ballarat long enough to make 3 shafts from for less than $30. With the square cutters available for $10 or less, you've got to wonder how they justify the price. :shrug:

[rsser]

Corbs, no idea sorry.

Vern, just for info, patents are pending on the Finishers and Detailers.

[corbs]

Ern, thanks for that and sorry for the hijack:-

[hughie]

.


Vern, just for info, patents are pending on the Finishers and Detailers.

Basically its not whether its a simple thing to make but rather it all hangs around innovation and being novel. Pending does not mean its going to be granted people often state that to dissuade others from copying


The design is new and novel and could be said to a innovation over current designs. As the cutters are designed to be use in another situation and currently hand held TCT cutters are in their infancy in hand held turning.

But it all hinges around the patent examination and the patent examiner. They are not all equal and I have known a lapsed patent to be granted to somebody else 20 or so years later and they then built a successful international business on it.:?

Somebody could steal his march by getting a innovation patent here in Oz. Its done on line and takes about a month with out any examination. Then apply to the US, having one here would considerably strengthen their application.
Lately inventors have been doing this from the US as it greatly speeds up and simplifies the process for them. A full patent can take a few years to be granted.

[ticklingmedusa]

I've been offline a lot recently and found this thread just today.
The one I have is called the Eliminator.
link http://jewelwood.com/products
Rather than write specs & description I prefer to use the magic of cut and paste.
It was a Christmas gift and I have used it a few times since.
It has flat spots machined on bottom that keep the cutter oriented at
correct angle.
I used it on a deep natural edge vessel of olive wood.
I had very little or no tearout and no catches.
It won't take much sanding to clean up.
One problem I had with it is maintaining a clean line on the inside.
I ended up with an undulated or ripple effect that I eventually
cleaned up.
I suspect that there is something wrong with my technique.
I don't like the idea of having to buy cutters @ $20 US and have some ideas about honing when the time comes.
Oneway calls it's version the Termite and it comes with a router mounted sharpening jig.
link to photos & description The Termite - End Grain Deep Hollowing Tool (http://www.oneway.ca/tools/termite.htm)
.
tm

[rsser]

Hi TM, acc to the metal work gurus on the forum, sharpening a TCT edge so that the bevels are polished involves removing nicks with a coarse diamond hone or wheel and then polishing with diamond paste at say 5000g and then 30-50,000g. I have another reason for going down this path and so far have spent about $100 on it, so it's not cheap and not as quick as a lick on a grinder obviously.

Thanks for that link btw. TCT cup cutters are also used by Vermec.

Hughie, true enough. I've no idea what the key points of the patent application will be. As an aside, a large US maker of cross-country ski bindings recently received a patent for technology that everyone has been using for yonks and you would have thought not patentable. So that maker is now picking off the smaller makers demanding fees for the use of it and those smaller guys don't have the deep pockets needed to challenge the claim and are coughing up.

[rsser]

Here's a short vid of the Easy Finisher from the maker for info:

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[Frank&Earnest]

I doubt you could patent a lump of square bar with a threaded hole in it :shrug: . You won't tap a hole in HSS without some serious metallurgy taking place first :no:. The square bars used are 13mm stainless steel which you can drill and tap if your careful. I picked some up in Ballarat long enough to make 3 shafts from for less than $30. With the square cutters available for $10 or less, you've got to wonder how they justify the price. :shrug:

Ditto. (replace Ballarat with Adelaide).

[rsser]

FWIW I don't think the Rougher has been patented or had one applied for.

I don't think the value proposition is something folk rationally evaluate; if you did you'd be putting some value on your labour and travel and the marginal cost of the tools you use to make a knock-off. If I did this for every Stanley handplane I fettle, I'd calculate that I'd be better off taking a job pushing supermarket trolleys and using the wages to buy Veritas or Lie-Nielsens! Some tools I find interesting to make or improve and I don't count the cost. In other cases I'm happy to trust the maker to have done the design refining and tool fettling :shrug:

[Frank&Earnest]

Ern, I have seen the video. My square tool, which I assume is the same as the Ci1 "rougher", works exactly in the same way, the only difference being that it can not make a narrow round corner at the junction of the internal wall and the bottom (can do an angle or a very broad curve). On the positive side it avoids the small ridges that commonly result from using a round blade and makes it much easier to produce a flat bottom.

[Frank&Earnest]

FWIW I don't think the Rougher has been patented or had one applied for.

I don't think the value proposition is something folk rationally evaluate; if you did you'd be putting some value on your labour and travel and the marginal cost of the tools you use to make a knock-off. If I did this for every Stanley handplane I fettle, I'd calculate that I'd be better off taking a job pushing supermarket trolleys and using the wages to buy Veritas or Lie-Nielsens! Some tools I find interesting to make or improve and I don't count the cost. In other cases I'm happy to trust the maker to have done the design refining and tool fettling :shrug:

Very true. Given that my dissertation (40 years ago, alas :C) was on cost accounting, I think however that I have a reasonable understanding of the production costs/marketing costs/profit margin involved. It all boils down to the marketing strategy and the timing of the product life cycle. Choosing a "skimming" strategy is appropriate for a product in its infancy, but that produces the fringe response in the market that Vern and I are exposing. Give it five years and the cost will halve in real terms (mark this post for checking in 5 years' time! :D )

[rsser]

Yes and if I recall correctly there's already a commercial knock-off of the Rougher.

The Easy Wood tools are exxy for us to buy from the US once the postage and exchange rates are factored in; on the other hand, there's a bit of the Rolls Royce about them. V. nicely done handles (not to my taste as it happens) and stainless shafts.

If folk were doing exact cost comparisons they'd be factoring in the stainless shaft, turning a round section on it for fitting into a handle, and turning that handle with a similar finish.

Edit: another point of comparison would be a conventional round edge scraper out of HSS, unhandled in this case. Add in the effort required to get the polished planes that form a fine edge equivalent to the Ci0 .... add in the extra sharpening/polishing after wear that at a guess would be required ...

[hughie]

I suspect that there is something wrong with my technique.

I doubt it TM, cup tools have their limitations like all tools. I suspect if you can turn with micrometer precision then the tool will leave a good finish. A bigger dia would help as well.




Oneway calls it's version the Termite and it comes with a router mounted sharpening jig.
link to photos & description The Termite - End Grain Deep Hollowing Tool (http://www.oneway.ca/tools/termite.htm)
.
"Unprecedented ease in hollowing, finishing, and thin wall turning make this tool a must in every turner's arsenal."
I am not sure I would go that far with a ring tool :U but its good advertising blurb

[rsser]

Yes in terms of technique, when you're hollowing a bowl with a conventional bowl gouge, the bevel allows a degree of 'self-jigging' if that makes sense. Provided the start at the rim gives good registration, and leaving out questions of bevel length and match to the bowl radius, you can travel down the bowl wall getting some guidance from the bevel heel.

In fact you can do it with one hand as the 'toe' is supported on two sides in the emerging cut and the heel provides a third point of support.

At least that's how I understand it :shrug:

[rsser]

If you want to check out the Finisher, Detailer and Rougher I'll be showing them in action here:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f12/april-open-days-festivities-melbourne-116198/

Can't be exact about when; 2 sessions btwn 10.30 & 2.30 on Fri and 1 before 11.30 on Sat.