Age Limits

[wheelinround]

Mod's feel free to move this to appropriate area if it should not be here.

In the forum discussions on age of children in the workshop at home has been brought up often.

This is a question of your clubs youngest registered member and oldest.
Opinions on the same.

I know insurance, constitutions, club rules etc all have a bearing as does many other things.

Ornamental Turners youngest member was 18 if I recall he was from South Aus.

Oldest member :no: idea after they turn 80 they lie heaps :U

[ian]

Mod's feel free to move this to appropriate area if it should not be here.

In the forum discussions on age of children in the workshop at home has been brought up often.

This is a question of your clubs youngest registered member and oldest.
Opinions on the same.

I know insurance, constitutions, club rules etc all have a bearing as does many other things.

Ornamental Turners youngest member was 18 if I recall he was from South Aus.

Oldest member :no: idea after they turn 80 they lie heaps :U
you can be a complete idiot in a car at 21
you can legally fly a plane by yourself at 16
I believe you can fly a glider by yourself at 14 (but that's a recollection of something I may have heard wrong over 35 years ago)
I wouldn't trust an unsupervised 10 year old with a power saw, but I would with a hand saw
I'd trust a 6 year old with a LN #1 -- note I said a LN, not a Stanley !

as to the other end I suppose it depends on how steady they are on their feet and how much eye hand coordination they have lost

[old pete]

Hi wheelinaround'

I don't think the issue is strictly one of age. It's more about height and personal maturity. Supervision at the highest level is a must until probably 16 given appropriate maturity and then with the less lethal machines. I've taught stacks of school kids of 15 male and female to do basic wood turning and many of them have developed a high level of competence. I've got a grandson of 10 who is a tall and mature lad who is now beginning to turn quite competently under my close supervision. It's horses for courses!

Old Pete

[wheelinround]

Thanks for the in put but, your both still looking at home situations my aim as stated is Club members ages.

[ian]

Thanks for the in put but, your both still looking at home situations my aim as stated is Club members ages.
Your club will have an insurance policy -- what does that say?

I was alluding to the degree of supervision that might be required and how that might be expressed in your insurance policy.

I think it would be equally bad to ban all non adults, ie those under 18, as it would be to ban kids who are being directly supervised by a responsible adult.
It comes down to the degree of supervision required.
when using a jointer, an unsupervised 25 year old who hasn't a clue is as dangerous as an 65 year old who is unsteady on their feet -- age is not the issue. The ability (trust) to work unsupervised is.

there is no magic age at which you become competetent nor one at which your infirmities render you a hazard

[wheelinround]

Incredible isn't it, Insurance companies dictating to those who pay the bills :~. It is they who are stemming the growth of youth forcing them to seek alternative outlets.:roll:

Yet they happily pay out to morons around the world who jump off tall buildings, go into stupid shows with outrageous stunts, sail around the world at tender ages and need rescuing even sponsor some of these with your money. Then reap the benifits from Govermnent for refunds. Support footballers, Cricketers and many other sports all with your money.

Ian


This is a question of your clubs youngest registered member and oldest.

I guess either your not a club member or don't know who is youngest and oldest.:;

Many clubs use the Insurance age hype as security baffle and BS to stop young people joining yet they don't realise with that they are stemming the growth of their club. Even with my present club I am looked upon as the youngest member I am 54 and no I am not the youngest member who turns up we have one younger he's mid 40's. Our youngest registered member is/was from South Australia I believe as I said before.

Funny thing is here in Sydney teachers bring school children to the wood show most are high school ages to see wood workers and machines.:?

No wonder kids only want to be indoors playing computer games. No harm will come to them, no mess to clean up. Just $$$ to spend on latest and greatest games, computer

[Sturdee]

Incredible isn't it, Insurance companies dictating to those who pay the bills.

Actually it is not the insurance companies fault or them dictating anything. All insurance companies will cover any risk provided the client is prepared to pay the premium.

In this case it would be a club's fault in not seeking to cover younger members and paying the appropriate premiums.

Of course it's easy to blame others, in this case the big bad insurance companies for others faults.:(


Peter.

[wheelinround]

Actually it is not the insurance companies fault or them dictating anything. All insurance companies will cover any risk provided the client is prepared to pay the premium.

In this case it would be a club's fault in not seeking to cover younger members and paying the appropriate premiums.

Of course it's easy to blame others, in this case the big bad insurance companies for others faults.:(


Peter.

Peter having been through a new club setting up recently (2 yrs ago) they were told anyone under the age of 18 yrs would not be covered and as you say the club was told to have 16 yr olds as a minimum age it would push the insurance cost over $5k a year.:o

Members fee's $25 at that time and still are, number of members 50 I believe that would mean members would have to fork out over $100 a year for the club to pay the insurance. Make money in other ways, raffles, sales, commissions.

The club did go well into many discussions with insurers from various companies all to no avail.

[Sturdee]

So it was the club's decision that it could not afford the cost of the insurance and hence you decided that you would not have young members rather than an insurance company saying you could not have young members.

Precisely my point.

Peter.

[ian]

Peter having been through a new club setting up recently (2 yrs ago) they were told anyone under the age of 18 yrs would not be covered and as you say the club was told to have 16 yr olds as a minimum age it would push the insurance cost over $5k a year.:o

Members fee's $25 at that time and still are, number of members 50 I believe that would mean members would have to fork out over $100 a year for the club to pay the insurance. Make money in other ways, raffles, sales, commissions.

The club did go well into many discussions with insurers from various companies all to no avail.Wheel'n
there's really two issues here

members of a club have a voice in respect to the election of the management committee and such.
Normal practice is, as long as the member is not dead, there is no upper age limit
at the other end, it usualy comes down to either being lazy and adopting the voting age (18) or settling on some lower age like 16 at which age the majority of members feel the "youngster" is not going to vote as they are told to by a parent.

the second issue is insurance for injury.
and this should be looked at from the point of view of competence.
as I said earlier, it doesn't matter if you're 15, 25, 35, 45, 55, 65, 75 or 85, if you haven't a clue, are drunk, are unsteady on your feet, don't have the dexterity needed -- you're a trip to Emergency waiting to happen.
insurance is just to make club members feel warm and fussy -- it's not there as a substitute for proper training and supervision. and if you have proper supervision, age is irrelevant.

[wheelinround]

Wheel'n
there's really two issues here

members of a club have a voice in respect to the election of the management committee and such.
Normal practice is, as long as the member is not dead, there is no upper age limit
at the other end, it usualy comes down to either being lazy and adopting the voting age (18) or settling on some lower age like 16 at which age the majority of members feel the "youngster" is not going to vote as they are told to by a parent.

the second issue is insurance for injury.
and this should be looked at from the point of view of competence.
as I said earlier, it doesn't matter if you're 15, 25, 35, 45, 55, 65, 75 or 85, if you haven't a clue, are drunk, are unsteady on your feet, don't have the dexterity needed -- you're a trip to Emergency waiting to happen.
insurance is just to make club members feel warm and fussy -- it's not there as a substitute for proper training and supervision. and if you have proper supervision, age is irrelevant.

Seems we are heading off track a long way this started out as I have pointed out the age of people in your club not a digression into insurance, abilities or competence matters or voting rights and privileges. Its not about my club clubs I have been in I am just curios.

I will admit your input has shone a bright light on many attitudes and acceptance of pressure by outside influences which govern your comments.

So what's the ages of your club members Ian??

[ian]

So what's the ages of your club members Ian??I don't have access to the membership list, but my observation is early 20s to late 80s, with the majority between 45 and 70

[wheelinround]

I don't have access to the membership list, but my observation is early 20s to late 80s, with the majority between 45 and 70


A good range Ian one which fosters new and old ideas as well as practices. :2tsup:

[nz_carver]

ok well I have looked at this and understand the points of it

just think id add this one or three if I may

Nuber one

I do see that age is what stops most clubs moveing fwd
i,e get the young ones in as they will be the futureor the clubs

Now saying that if you get a 16 yr old kid in your doors it is becouse he or she want to be there and they have the love and enjoment for wood that others in the grop or club have

I mean clubs and groups are not like woodwork at school were you have to be there and make what everyone is makeing

Number two

the insurance and legally part :((
now this is the bit tthat gets me


Now at the age of 16 you can drive a car
and last time I looked more young people are killed on our roads by driveing and speed then
in workshops makeing things??

but with most clubs setting the age at 18 becouse of the insurance
I do see why there is not as meny young people in woodworking grops


I have had this fight with groups when I was 16 so I do know first hand what It can be like to be told NO your to young!!!

Number 3 three
but saying that there is know age limit to walking in to carba tec or any other place and buying lathes and bandsaws and setting up at home

Now is it not better for a young person to work in a group/club

not by them self???

we now have a youg 16yr old carver
but till he started I was the young one at 26:?


I dont know just think you might want the point of a young one:q

Nz_Carver

[wheelinround]

:brava:clap2::hooray: Dave your right on track ok so spellings a hit n miss but otherwise you there.

I have just been going through the NSW Fair Trading site on Associations Rules etc which all clubs in NSW should be registered under. Its double talk much of it, the one point here is age. It allows for 16 yr olds to be members pay their fee's but they can not use machines and cannot vote until 18 this last one due to insurance.

Now s you have pointed out Dave at 16 you can start learning to drive P's and own your own car etc.

Then of course all the way through years as a member you have to due to insurance do course to prove your proficiency. Ok we are not all trade trained etc but who's demanding this stuff same people who tell us we are not covered anyway the insurance only covers 3rd party those who are visitors.:~:doh:

I recently saw a young fellow be denied club membership at age 16 even though the clubs constitution states as long as the member pages the fee's "No Restrictions are enforced" :roll:

My aim here was to find the ages of members in clubs only not to head down other tracks.

Dave your right if someone turned up at the club door and aged 16 is genuine about membership why not.:2tsup: Male or female. It is what could make or break a club.

There is nothing anywhere in relation as to a cut off age I can find. I do believe it does come down to members or even appointed safety office to pounce watch out for all members safety.

[hughie]

There is nothing anywhere in relation as to a cut off age I can find. I do believe it does come down to members or even appointed safety office to pounce watch out for all members safety.

That pretty well sums it up in society we are cautious about getting the young involved because they are young... and what else can they be?
But on the other hand age is no restriction :? especially if your old. How ever some old folks are just past it and should not be involved.

I watched my 70year old BIL playing around with my lathe when it was running and it scared the living daylights out of me. He was in MHO well past it.

At the end of the day putting aside politics, personal grievances, preconceived ideas, overt legalism etc if we can. Each case should handled on its merits, in todays world I suppose Beethoven would not be allowed near a piano till he was 10 or 12 years old :U

[Mike Busby]

I was given my first pocket knife at the tender age of 6 by my grandfather. I am now 54. Today it would seem that he would have been jailed for providing a minor with a weapon or some such rot.

I would get someone who is at least a Cert IV Trainer and Assessor to come up with a basic competency training package, submit it to the insurance comapny and see if it fits their criteria. If not work with them and see what they can come up with. Have a set training pathway for young members. The outcome would be a member who has shown he has the skills and maturity to operate in the workshop under little or know supervision.

I.E.
100 Introduction to the clubhouse - rules and regulations
101 Workshop safety
102 Basic electrical safety
103 Safe operation of edged non powered tools
104 Safe operation of powered edged tools
105 Workshop First Aid
etc.

Who knows it may be that the path of least resistance is fighting them with their own rules.