The tamed skew

[Frank&Earnest]

It took a bit longer than I would have liked, but here is my considered view on the insert tool that you have already seen during its development.

I have had the first batch made by a toolmaker and, as I promised, I'll make it available at cost: $40 + postage to anybody who wants to try it.

[artme]

Excellent F&E!!:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

I think you have answered a few questions very well.

Now for the continuing stand offf between the traditionalists and the progressives!:D

[rev]

I'm in F&E!
pm sent
Cheers

[steck]

I'll give one a go!
Great research F&E.
Pm Sent

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks guys, the tools are on their way.

Artme, it looks like the traditionalists have put it in the too hard basket....
There is an objective point in their favour, though: people who have invested a lot of time in learning how to master the skew have either achieved it, which means that they have no interest in trying something else, or feel close to achieving it and do not want to throw away their investment.Only beginners who do not yet have a "tradition" have an interest in trying new approaches.

[stuffy]

I've been tempted to comment but my Mum told me "if you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".
:)

No disrespect intended at all, it looks like a very useful tool, but for me not a replacement for a skew. At best a bedan. A cutting tool, but too narrow to replace a skew.
Please don't take offence I haven't used it or even seen it close up, so I may be misunderstanding its intended use.

Best wishes,

Steve
:)

[RETIRED]

I've been tempted to comment but my Mum told me "if you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".
:)

No disrespect intended at all, it looks like a very useful tool, but for me not a replacement for a skew. At best a bedan. A cutting tool, but too narrow to replace a skew.
Please don't take offence I haven't used it or even seen it close up, so I may be misunderstanding its intended use.

Best wishes,

Steve
:)Exactly what he said. Just to add, that something that "blunt" at the tip will not give a sharp edge at the base of a bead.

[Frank&Earnest]

Well, at least it's a start. :) What does "a sharp edge at the base of the bead" mean? If you are referring to the V cut being necessarily wider, I have already said that. If you mean a well defined line where the bead ends and the base cylinder starts or a smooth transition between a bead and a cove, the statement is demonstrably incorrect.

Is any of the statements I have made in my document demonstrably incorrect? Always happy to stand corrected. "I don't understand its intended use but I don't like it" is not really an argument, is it? :wink:

[RETIRED]

Studying it.

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks, much appreciated. Sincerely.

[stuffy]

"In rolling a bead, the starting V cut is done with the long point and the rolling with the short point. In both cases, the blunt side of the tool touches the wood before the sharp edge does. Looking at the side of the skew (figure 3) with a magnifying glass makes it evident that this is like hitting the wood with a hammer. "

When rolling a bead the only blunt side of the tool to touch the wood should be the bevel and that should be behind the cutting edge. Its that rubbing that guides the cutting edge and gives the control and superior finish of any cutting tool. Hardly like hitting the wood with a hammer.
:)

[rev]

Frank you are right (with respect to me, anyway) when you say "Only beginners who do not yet have a "tradition" have an interest in trying new approaches."

Besides this, I don't want to invest significant sums in sharpening equipment, time in developing tool sharpening skills, downtime to do the sharpening etc, all in my advancing years while starting out in this hobby. I just want the easiest and least expensive way to get started with the best chance of not becoming frustrated with tools that become incapable of producing reasonable results after relatively short periods of time. I hope yours is the answer for me!
Cheers

[jefferson]

Before biting too hard on this one, readers please note: I own quite a few (6?) carbide insert tools. I use them all the time too.

But I can't agree with all that Frank has said. For example:


"It is a well known fact that a bowl gouge produces a more undulated curve (rippled surface) while a scraper produces a smoother curve but more tear out, which generally requires more sanding."

I have some problems with this one. Just saying that it "is a well known fact" doesn't make it so.


A well presented gouge – either bowl or spindle – can produce an even finish (almost certainly better than a skew on cranky grained wood) without rippling. Also, a scraper used correctly will produce LESS tear out and thus less sanding than any other tool. That said, the scraper will produce more rippling, but that is easily sanded away.

Anyway, that's just for starters. See what the troops think.

[Frank&Earnest]

"In rolling a bead, the starting V cut is done with the long point and the rolling with the short point. In both cases, the blunt side of the tool touches the wood before the sharp edge does. Looking at the side of the skew (figure 3) with a magnifying glass makes it evident that this is like hitting the wood with a hammer. "

When rolling a bead the only blunt side of the tool to touch the wood should be the bevel and that should be behind the cutting edge. Its that rubbing that guides the cutting edge and gives the control and superior finish of any cutting tool. Hardly like hitting the wood with a hammer.
:)

Sorry, Stuffy, that is factually incorrect, as any magnified photography can prove. Don't believe me, believe Mike Darlow (as quoted). I agree that if your statement were correct all my analysis would not be.

[Frank&Earnest]

Before biting too hard on this one, readers please note: I own quite a few (6?) carbide insert tools. I use them all the time too.

But I can't agree with all that Frank has said. For example:


"It is a well known fact that a bowl gouge produces a more undulated curve (rippled surface) while a scraper produces a smoother curve but more tear out, which generally requires more sanding."

I have some problems with this one. Just saying that it "is a well known fact" doesn't make it so.

A well presented gouge – either bowl or spindle – can produce an even finish (almost certainly better than a skew on cranky grained wood) without rippling. Also, a scraper used correctly will produce LESS tear out and thus less sanding than any other tool. That said, the scraper will produce more rippling, but that is easily sanded away.

Anyway, that's just for starters. See what the troops think.

Point taken, Jeff, just saying that it "is a well known fact" doesn't make it so. The problem I have is that referencing every point to the relevant literature makes for a very heavy going document, especially when the statement is about generalities to which there are always exceptions. Would you disagree that it is impossible to define absolutely any tool behaviour due to the large number of variables in any given situation?

As regards this specific statement, Tim Skilton said it in as many words at a recent demonstration I attended, but I do not have it in a document I can quote. Mike Darlow does not say it in one quotable sentence, I can only say that his discussion of cutting and scraping in chapter 4 of the quoted book seems to me consistent with it.

This said, I am happy to delete "it is a well known fact" and replace it with a less sweeping statement, I do not think it would negatively affect my analysis.

[Frank&Earnest]

... and, Jeff, surely is above "the troops" also! :D:wink:

[stuffy]

Hi F&E,

I didn't want to come across as a closed minded purist. I am very much of the belief that turners should use whatever works best for them to get the results they want. If this tool is easier for a beginner to use and gets a good finish then I am all for it.

Can you post some photos of the tool in action so I can see how you are presenting the edge to the work?

Many thanks.

Steve
:)

[Frank&Earnest]

No problem Steve. These are old shots with a prototype (post #30)

www.woodworkforums.com/f8/why-how-square-insert-works-107163/ (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/why-how-square-insert-works-107163/)

It also shows some of the blind alleys I explored during the process...

[rsser]

Frank, I applaud your posting a thoughtful and scholarly piece.

It needs a matched response and I will give it when I have time.

There are just some immediate reactions I have, based on using a skew in my amateur fashion and using the EWT Easy detailer (a 'diamond' shaped TCT cutter).

For some forms you need crisp separations. Eg., a V cut is just that; not a V with a rounded bottom. And where you have say a bead running down to a fillet, the junction is square or close to it.

You can't do this with the Easy Detailer since the tip is rounded. From what little I know, TCT is brittle and a point would readily break.

As for beads themselves, they can be cut with a 'diamond' shaped TCT tip or a skew or a spindle/detail gouge with an acute bevel angle. If you want adjacent beads, you're in trouble with the first and the third since there's not the clearance and/or a distinct separation. In any case, IME all three methods take practise to develop the skill. In terms of finish, on fast growth pine, IME there's not much between them, assuming fresh cutting edges.

Planing cuts, again, there are a variety of methods: roughing gouge at a skewed angle; skew chisel; square ended chisel used lightly or slightly skewed in presentation; slightly radiused 'square' TCT cutter; forged spindle gouge. With skill and a fresh cutting edge, IME there's not that much between them.

The key in general to a good finish with a TCT cutter is the quality of the edge. As posted in my thread on the Easy Wood Tools, a polished bevel on the Easy Finisher produced a very good finish, and the finish off a fresh Rougher edge was also very good.

But in terms of the range of forms that a skew can produce, a rounded tip diamond or triangle TCT cutter just isn't in the race.

And for most turners, the method of both rehabbing and polishing a TCT edge is far too demanding. A skew on the other hand is relatively speaking a walk in the park.

But let me say again, these are just off the cuff comments and not a properly considered response to your document.

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks Ern, much appreciated.

The cutters I use do have acute corners, not rounded, therefore that aspect is covered. Following 's comment and yours, I'll try to document photographically a clean V and a bead running down to a fillet.

[Frank&Earnest]

Here they are. Quick and dirty, no pretence of good turning of the 2mm beads. At 30x the bottom of the V and the square transition to the fillet are impeccable.

[rsser]

Well you have one up on the other TCT tip suppliers in that case. Well done.

Would just make another point, given I'm just out of the shed getting the hang of turning with a new lathe.

The thing about a skew, or indeed a gouge or a device with the bevel above like a Munro or Proforme, is as has already been alluded to that the bevel provides guidance.

These are if you like 'self-jigging' tools.

Shaping the outside of a Box Elder bowl, I could get a better line and finish with a gouge than with a scraper at a skew angle. And as a 'play piece' I gave each type of tool a good run.

Just my 2 bob's worth.

Your mileage may vary.

Issatree would clearly think so.

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks Ern. I am not sure I have interpreted "the bevel provides guidance" correctly, but I think we are now getting into the technical discussion that I purposefully left out of the document to get the basic principles sorted out first. I believe you refer (as clarified in another thread where I asked for his guidance) to the need to maintain a sufficient support band under the cutting edge, which is achieved by minimizing the clearance angle. This is not affected by the width of the sharpening angle (one can't go less than zero), what is affected is the rake angle, which is (90 minus sharpening angle minus clearance angle) degrees.

So, assuming an optimal clearance angle of, say, 2 degrees, the difference between using a 44 degrees instead of a 25 degrees sharpening angle is that the maximum rake angle achievable is 90-44-2=44 degrees instead of 90-25-2=63 degrees.

That is why one can scrape with a skew but can't really cut with a scraper.

The combination of this fact with the side rake achievable with the geometry of the square insert is what produces the advantages and disadvantages that are the subject of this discussion.

If you were talking about something else, Ern, please put me back on track...:)

[tea lady]

Why exactly do you feel the need to argue that this tool is better than everything else? :think: :shrug:

I personally thing "purists" know stuff worth knowing.

[Frank&Earnest]

Why exactly do you feel the need to argue that this tool is better than everything else? :think: :shrug:

I personally thing "purists" know stuff worth knowing.

Because I am an egomaniac? :D

Jokes aside, I am not arguing that, I suspect you have not read my paper.

Being a "purist" is a matter of choice, knowledge is not the issue. Today's innovation is tomorrow's conservative view. What works stands the test of time and what does not, does not.

[tea lady]

Because I am an egomaniac? :D

Jokes aside, I am not arguing that, I suspect you have not read my paper.

Being a "purist" is a matter of choice, knowledge is not the issue. Today's innovation is tomorrow's conservative view. What works stands the test of time and what does not, does not.Yes well! My eyes do glaze over when I see fields of type, but I think I got the salient points. Not sure if I'd hold that finial up as a prime example of the type. It is screaming out for a decent skew chisel to make the bottom of the V cuts into something more suited to the name "v". Your tool may get into the corner of a flat bottomed bowl well, but so does an 8mm parting tool, which I also like to use as a really short fat screw on occasion. And nothing quite hogs out a bowl as fast as a half decent bowl gouge. If you are getting a ripply surface you are doing it wrong. Anyway, ripples are easier to sand out that tear-out. :cool: And you can do shear scraping with a bowl gouge. making it even easier to sand out the ripples left behind.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents. (From one who has also actually used a C1 rougher at least. On something that actually blunts them a darn sight quicker that 8 to 10 hours. :cool: )

[Frank&Earnest]

Yes, I do accept that my poor technique is not adequate to show the tool at its best.
And yes, there are other tools that can do the job even better in particular circumstances. I have already said that, maybe your eyes gazed over that part.:)
Also, as said before, my tool is not a C1, the performance of that tool should not be taken as an indication of the performance of mine.

Why exactly do you feel the need to argue that this tool can't fulfil a useful purpose? :D

[Frank&Earnest]

Always eager to learn, though.

Maybe my expectations are too low and I am letting beginners down suggesting that they should be happy with something I deem not sublime but acceptable.

What's wrong with the V cuts of the finial, and how can they be made "into something more suited to the name "v" ? They look fine to me even at 30x. If there are poor ones, that's my fault, not the tool's.

[tea lady]

Why exactly do you feel the need to argue that this tool can't fulfil a useful purpose? :DIt is prolly useful somewhere!:p :cool: But you seem to be arguing that it is better than whole stack of other tools, and anyone who doesn't think so is derided as a purest. :rolleyes:

The sharper edge of your tips will prolly chip off quite quickly in the application and I use them for. And still won't be sharp enough for some other applications. (Like turning finials out of desert timber, or turning Radiatta pine.:p )

[Frank&Earnest]

It is prolly useful somewhere!:p :cool: But you seem to be arguing that it is better than whole stack of other tools, and anyone who doesn't think so is derided as a purest. :rolleyes:

The sharper edge of your tips will prolly chip off quite quickly in the application and I use them for. And still won't be sharp enough for some other applications. (Like turning finials out of desert timber, or turning Radiatta pine.:p )

O dear... I have never argued that it is better, I argue that it can do passably and more easily the job of a whole stack of other tools. And I would never deride anybody for their choices, however opposite to mine. I am quite happy to deride bigots of any description, though, be it for tools, politics, religion or whatever form of belief...:p

BTW, that finial is desert timber (Western Myall). :)

[tea lady]

Always eager to learn, though.

Maybe my expectations are too low and I am letting beginners down suggesting that they should be happy with something I deem not sublime but acceptable.

What's wrong with the V cuts of the finial, and how can they be made "into something more suited to the name "v" ? They look fine to me even at 30x. If there are poor ones, that's my fault, not the tool's.Not near a lathe today, so will have to ferret out one I did earlier! Which I would still call a beginners effort, but I would want a finer base to the "v". Maybe for it to be so narrow that I couldn't see the bottom.:think: (Might take some ferreting cos I've recently moved. :C )

[Paul39]

The tamed skew. Bah.

The skew lets you get pretty good, and one day you are happily slicing off lots of wood, the piece is smooth as silk, and zoink!! :oo: a beautiful free form spiral, 5 mm deep. With fuzzy edges.:D

[Frank&Earnest]

Indeed. Just to have a taste of the difference, I tried cutting a finial of radiata pine, with the skew because this wood is too soft for the TC insert. I know that my technique is not wonderful, but I wonder whether the gods of turning would have done much better or just accepted, like I do, that radiata is not worth using for this purpose?

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

:U

F&E, it's obvious that you feel about your Ci1 & Ci2 Rougher type tools as I do about Olands.

But I most definitely do not plan to replace my whole tool kit with a couple of Olands, because although they can do something well doesn't mean that they're the best tool for the job.

[Frank&Earnest]

Helllooo Skew, long time no see! :U

I see that you have not seen that a couple of posts ago I said that
a) my tool is not the same as the C1 and its ilk
b) I know that is not the best for hardly any job, but it can do many
c) for those like you who are good with the skew my tool would be a step backwards. But I believe you would appreciate the $$$ it saves.:U

So, because of c), pray tell: would you bother making radiata finials? :o

Today I also photographed another test: turning without steady a walking stick 855mm long (QLD stringbark) tapered from 21 to 19mm. No problem with my tool but I could not do it with the roughing gouge. Do you think it is because a) my tool is awesome or b) I am hopeless with the roughing gouge? :D

[Frank&Earnest]

:- O dear, I am profoundly ashamed of myself. I had not realised that my my humour is too vulgar for this forum, so much so that my latest post had to be edited. However, replacing symbols with ??? is the accepted forum practice, therefore I can now express my humblest apologies to all those who would have been offended by my writing "@#???&" in full. I have learnt my lesson and next time I will write "bl???y" instead. :-

Of course, I will also write "expl???ve del???d" when appropriate. :D

[RETIRED]

Bloody is not censored.

Sarcasm is wasted on me.:wink::rolleyes:

[Sturdee]

Seeing that I've finally managed to read the original word document ( computer problems) I would firstly like to thank F&E for a very informative post and document. Well laid out and covering the theory behind it. Well done.

As I am a relative newcomer to turning, having only become interested after last years WWW show, I do not have preconceived ideas about which tool is best and neither am I much concerned about making small beads and V cuts in small finials.

Mainly because I still don't have those skills, but also I believe that many a good turning is spoiled by excessive use of finials. So debates about V cuts between better turners is wasted on me and no doubt many other inexperienced turners, so lets stay on topic.

Whilst still assimilating the full details of this new tool, in particular the difference between the Bedan and this, I would like to hear if more experienced turners would have bought this kind of tool, if it was available, when they first started out before they gained their experience with a skew.

Also F & E what is the normally expected life of the insert, is it really only 6-10 hours turning time and the availability, within Australia, of the inserts and the cost for the ongoing cost is a big part of the decision making for a poor pensioner, like me.:)


Peter.

[Jim Carroll]

I am hopeless with the roughing gouge?


Probably more to do with your technique than the tool.
The skew would be the tool of choice on a turning this diameter or rotate your roughing gouge to act like a skew instead of square on.

Use your fingers as a steady rest in eith the overhand or underhand method whichever is easier for you. if your hand gets hot you are pushing the tool too hard or the tool is not sharp enough.

[Frank&Earnest]

Bloody is not censored.

Sarcasm is wasted on me.:wink::rolleyes:

Not totally wasted, you answered... thank you. Sincerely. No sarcasm here.

But I am still unable to understand why bloody is not censored but @#$%^& is.

[Frank&Earnest]

Seeing that I've finally managed to read the original word document ( computer problems) I would firstly like to thank F&E for a very informative post and document. Well laid out and covering the theory behind it. Well done.

As I am a relative newcomer to turning, having only become interested after last years WWW show, I do not have preconceived ideas about which tool is best and neither am I much concerned about making small beads and V cuts in small finials.

Mainly because I still don't have those skills, but also I believe that many a good turning is spoiled by excessive use of finials. So debates about V cuts between better turners is wasted on me and no doubt many other inexperienced turners, so lets stay on topic.

Whilst still assimilating the full details of this new tool, in particular the difference between the Bedan and this, I would like to hear if more experienced turners would have bought this kind of tool, if it was available, when they first started out before they gained their experience with a skew.

Also F & E what is the normally expected life of the insert, is it really only 6-10 hours turning time and the availability, within Australia, of the inserts and the cost for the ongoing cost is a big part of the decision making for a poor pensioner, like me.:)


Peter.


Hi Peter, I'll try to explain off the cuff, please excuse if I'm not clear. The main difference of this tool with the bedan and the skew is that the side is sharp, not blunt, so the corner, which is the point where the blade meets the wood, acts as the vertex of an acute detail gouge the "wings" of which (the front and side edge of the square cutter) are also engaged without the problems of engaging the wing of a gouge too far from the vertex. (clear as mud? :- Now you know why I need more time to edit what I write). This means that when appropriate the tool can be pushed virtually parallel to the rotation axis, in an action similar to that of a metal cutting lathe.

Actual turning time: I have not measured it objectively in standardised test conditions, that was just an educated guess based on more than one year of erratic use. It all depends also on the individual tolerance for the progressively worsening finish, which is more difficult to measure objectively. I found that the biggest problem for me, with any tool, is not the wear, is dropping them on the floor. :-)

Availability of the cutters is not a problem: I buy them from Leuco and they have quite a few suitable cutters. At the moment I have settled on # 182443 (14.3x14.3x2.5), current cost $88 for a box of 10. They bring them in from Germany, so it takes a week or two to get them from the time you order them. If you live in a country area the additional P&H cost could be relatively high for such a small order, maybe you can arrange for a friend to pick them up in town.

I have not yet experimented with sharpening them, on the assumption that it was not worth it; keeping two tools and squeezing a few more hours of roughing out of a worn cutter while using a fresh one on the other tool for finishing seems a better solution to me.

Hope it helps.:wink:

[Frank&Earnest]

I am hopeless with the roughing gouge?


Probably more to do with your technique than the tool.
The skew would be the tool of choice on a turning this diameter or rotate your roughing gouge to act like a skew instead of square on.

Use your fingers as a steady rest in eith the overhand or underhand method whichever is easier for you. if your hand gets hot you are pushing the tool too hard or the tool is not sharp enough.

Thanks Jim, I suspected that it would be mainly that. You seem to confirm that with traditional tools a steady (albeit made by fingers) could/would be required, though. Which was the answer I also got from a skew guru whom I had challenged to do it without.

[Sturdee]

The main difference of this tool with the bedan and the skew is that the side is sharp, not blunt, so the corner, which is the point where the blade meets the wood, acts as the vertex of an acute detail gouge the "wings" of which (the front and side edge of the square cutter) are also engaged without the problems of engaging the wing of a gouge too far from the vertex. (clear as mud? :- Now you know why I need more time to edit what I write). This means that when appropriate the tool can be pushed virtually parallel to the rotation axis, in an action similar to that of a metal cutting lathe.


Actually I understand this.:D

From a long standing habit I used to polish the backs of my woodworking chisels by rubbing them along the various grades of sandpaper glued onto a glass sheet a la scary sharp method. This I did up to 2000 grit in order to have a sharp edge .

When I took up turning I automatically polished all sides of my tools to get a sharp edge. With the bedan, skews, parting tools and scrapers that means all sides (not just the one) were polished prior to sharpening and with gouges the inside hollow section where possible. Hence my bedan two sides are sharpened similar to yours.

I still have a board near the lathe with a sheet of 600 grit glued on to quickly clean up the sides when they need resharpening. Just a few rubs up and down is all that is needed.

BTW I use the bedan for a lot of cuts, eg roughing out the shape of a bowl (both inside and outside) rather than a bowl gouge, for hollowing out little boxes and making spigots etc.

I find that this tool is not widely used and misunderstood, yet it is a very useful tool. Maybe because it is a European development and not English or American.

Peter.

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks Peter, with your experience you would find the advantage of the 60 degrees lateral bevel/shaft as a natural progression from what you are already familiar with. Any chance of seeing a photo of how you sharpen the bedan? I find difficult to visualize how you get a cutting edge out of the square side.

[tea lady]

BTW I use the bedan for a lot of cuts, eg roughing out the shape of a bowl (both inside and outside) rather than a bowl gouge, for hollowing out little boxes and making spigots etc.

I find that this tool is not widely used and misunderstood, yet it is a very useful tool. Maybe because it is a European development and not English or American.

Peter.I'd really like to see you using the bedan. I quite like using one of Robbos 8mm parting tools like a skew,and imagine that the bedan might be similar. :think: I have been threatening a turn-on at my new house for a while now. Maybe a bedan demo could be one of the things there. Dunno when though. My calender is full till mid November. :doh: (Of course I also need to move all my wood and tools and stuff from the old shed. :C )

[tea lady]

Not that I'm a show off but...... here is a couple of muck around things in Radiatta pine. Done with a spindle gouge. I took your "design" above and did it more curvy, as a spindle gouge allows you too. Notice not tear out. :p No chipping on the sharp edges. :cool: The "v" cut one is mainly with a detail gouge. It could herald the start of my "electrical insulator" phase. :D (Striaght off the tool, as they say! No sanding done. )

I'm not suggesting that your tool is not useful. Just that it can't match a spindle gouge or detail gouge in the hands of a relative beginner doing finials. :shrug:

Thinking about it, I reackon monting one stughtly skewd on teh post could really work doing endgrain hollowing. :think: Have to dash now, could do a thumb nail sketch if you want.:cool:

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Helllooo Skew, long time no see! :U

:bye1:


I see that you have not seen that a couple of posts ago I said that
a) [...]

Oh, I saw. But I couldn't resist a poke. :U

I guess my point - if I even have one, that is :think: - is that in the hands of a beginner such tools may be more versatile than most others. However in the hands of an experienced user other tools will give superior results.

But if the beginner is using this "do-a-bit-of-everything" tool, they're never going to master the other tools... and hence are self-limiting the quality of their work.


Not that I'm a show off but...... here is a couple of muck around things in Radiatta pine.

Nicely done, AM! :2tsup: (Oh... and there's only one T in Radiata, Ttea Lady!. :innocent:)

[tea lady]

Nicely done, AM! :2tsup: (Oh... and there's only one T in Radiata, Ttea Lady!. :innocent:):rolleyes::doh: Its only cos I'm a vvery generous personn! :D

[Sturdee]

I find difficult to visualize how you get a cutting edge out of the square side.

There is the misconception

My bedan is the Sorby 3/8 or nom 10mm size. This one is not made of square stock but looking from the end it is a trapezoidal shape.

The top side is a bit over 9mm and the bottom a bit over 7 mm so the sides each slope inwards about 1mm which would make the sides angled at about 80 degrees relative to the top. The angle sharpened is at 50 degrees to the top of the bedan.


To use on spindle work you invert the tool so that the top side is in fact the bevel rubbing against the wood. You push it in similar to a parting tool for rapid removal of waste and then you can do a peeling cut to the left or right without altering the angle of the tool.

For hollowing a box or a bowl you hold the tool similar to a scraper which means you will cut along the sides as well as the edge at the same time similar to a scraper adapted for side scraping.

For roughing out a bowl shape to round I hold it similar to a scraper.

Today I used two identical wet rounds to rough turn into bowl shapes. I used a roughing bowl gouge on one and the bedan on the other. The bedan was twice as fast.

Of course the finish is not as good as a skew or a gouge and I normally finish with those tools but for quickly getting it to shape it is equivalent to my spindle roughing gouge and no catches.


Peter.

[tea lady]

There is the misconception

My bedan is the Sorby 3/8 or nom 10mm size. This one is not made of square stock but looking from the end it is a trapezoidal shape.

The top side is a bit over 9mm and the bottom a bit over 7 mm so the sides each slope inwards about 1mm which would make the sides angled at about 80 degrees relative to the top. The angle sharpened is at 50 degrees to the top of the bedan.


To use on spindle work you invert the tool so that the top side is in fact the bevel rubbing against the wood. You push it in similar to a parting tool for rapid removal of waste and then you can do a peeling cut to the left or right without altering the angle of the tool.

For hollowing a box or a bowl you hold the tool similar to a scraper which means you will cut along the sides as well as the edge at the same time similar to a scraper adapted for side scraping.:think: Bevel up or down?

For roughing out a bowl shape to round I hold it similar to a scraper. :? bevel up or down? :C



Peter.Still owuld love to see you using it!

[Frank&Earnest]

:bye1:



Oh, I saw. But I couldn't resist a poke. :U

I guess my point - if I even have one, that is :think: - is that in the hands of a beginner such tools may be more versatile than most others. However in the hands of an experienced user other tools will give superior results.

But if the beginner is using this "do-a-bit-of-everything" tool, they're never going to master the other tools... and hence are self-limiting the quality of their work.



Nicely done, AM! :2tsup: (Oh... and there's only one T in Radiata, Ttea Lady!. :innocent:)

Totally agree with what you say, I think I said exactly the same thing (maybe less clearly! :D ) The only difference, I believe, is a value judgement about the net benefit of doing a bit of everything easily and cheaply after taking away the cost of the inferior quality. For the experienced person like you the cost overcomes the benefit, for a beginner hobbyist IMHO the benefit could be substantial until he/she decides where to go from there. I do not think that using this tool would engender bad habits that would mar future development.

[Frank&Earnest]

There is the misconception

My bedan is the Sorby 3/8 or nom 10mm size. This one is not made of square stock but looking from the end it is a trapezoidal shape.

The top side is a bit over 9mm and the bottom a bit over 7 mm so the sides each slope inwards about 1mm which would make the sides angled at about 80 degrees relative to the top. The angle sharpened is at 50 degrees to the top of the bedan.

...

Peter.

Yes, Peter, that explaines it. As you say, you use the top as a 50 degree cutter/scraper and the side as an 80 degrees scraper. The action is indeed similar but not the same thing as cutting with a 44 degree blade. I am sure you would find a benefit using the tool exactly as you use the bedan and exploring its effectivenes for rolling cuts.

[Frank&Earnest]

Not that I'm a show off but...... here is a couple of muck around things in Radiatta pine. Done with a spindle gouge. I took your "design" above and did it more curvy, as a spindle gouge allows you too. Notice not tear out. :p No chipping on the sharp edges. :cool: The "v" cut one is mainly with a detail gouge. It could herald the start of my "electrical insulator" phase. :D (Striaght off the tool, as they say! No sanding done. )

I'm not suggesting that your tool is not useful. Just that it can't match a spindle gouge or detail gouge in the hands of a relative beginner doing finials. :shrug:

Thinking about it, I reackon monting one stughtly skewd on teh post could really work doing endgrain hollowing. :think: Have to dash now, could do a thumb nail sketch if you want.:cool:

Nice work, TL. As it has been pointed out, this is a bit of a sidetrack, but I think our little bit of repartee does add a bit of useful context.

We both agree that the wider angle of the insert is not suitable for soft wood and can only produce larger V cuts than those possible with a more acute blade.

We both can produce detailed work in soft wood with traditional tools, the difference being a matter of individual skill. Because soft wood produces inferior results, though, neither of us would really be happy using it for our work.

The point still unproven is your claim that a traditional tool would produce a cleaner cut at the bottom of a 46 degrees V cut in a decent hard timber. Can't imagine how much cleaner than those I have documented photographically one can go, but I am eager to see it.

[tea lady]

I do not think that using this tool would engender bad habits that would mar future development.I'm not sure of this. It appears that the ool is used differantly to "traditional" tools. So the beginner would not be getting skills that would hepl them use proper tools.



We both agree that the wider angle of the insert is not suitable for soft wood and can only produce larger V cuts than those possible with a more acute blade.

We both can produce detailed work in soft wood with traditional tools, the difference being a matter of individual skill. Because soft wood produces inferior results, though, neither of us would really be happy using it for our work.

The point still unproven is your claim that a traditional tool would produce a cleaner cut at the bottom of a 46 degrees V cut in a decent hard timber. Can't imagine how much cleaner than those I have documented photographically one can go, but I am eager to see it.Since beginners would prolly be using radiata pine for their first pieces, perhaps the tool should at least be capable of doing a good job on it? :think:

You want harder wood? OK! Will dig something out tomorrow. Is cranky red gum OK? Or do you want some desert timber? :p

[Frank&Earnest]

I'm not sure of this. It appears that the ool is used differantly to "traditional" tools. So the beginner would not be getting skills that would hepl them use proper tools.

Yep, that's what I am saying. No habits means no bad habits.

Since beginners would prolly be using radiata pine for their first pieces, perhaps the tool should at least be capable of doing a good job on it? :think:
Now you are really scraping the barrel of the argument...:D

You want harder wood? OK! Will dig something out tomorrow. Is cranky red gum OK? Or do you want some desert timber? :p

Straight grained desert timber would serve you best... but I want a 30x photo of the V cut for evidence, otherwise I won't believe you. :U Seriously, though, you surely have better things to do with your life ... I would feel bad if you feel obliged. :wink:

[Jim Carroll]

Straight grained desert timber would serve you best... but I want a 30x photo of the V cut for evidence, otherwise I won't believe you. :U Seriously, though, you surely have better things to do with your life ... I would feel bad if you feel obliged. :wink:

Frank I think you owe Tea Lady an apology.

Every new turner ususally only has acces to radiata pine they get from their local hardware store or scraps from building projects, they do not have ready acces to straight grained desert timbers.
So maybe you are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Ditto to you also, Seriously, though, you surely have better things to do with your life you have strung this argument out quite a bit to prove very little other than that newbies should learn the basic skills to use the proper tools to do woodturning.
Once this has been achieved then look at the gimmicks and see if they do what they want them to do.

When I started turning I was told to keep practising on radiata pine till I got my technique right, once you learn to turn pine the rest is easy. I still tell all newbies to do this.

All turners should learn to turn with conventional tools , then learn to turn good, then they will learn how to turn fast.

Once they get through these three steps they realise they dont need gimiky tools.

[jefferson]

All turners should learn to turn with conventional tools , then learn to turn good, then they will learn how to turn fast.

Once they get through these three steps they realise they dont need gimiky tools.

Geez, Jim, I'm not disagreeing with you but you're taking all the fun out of retail therapy! :D

[jimbur]

Geez, Jim, I'm not disagreeing with you but you're taking all the fun out of retail therapy! :D

Not true in my case Jeff and I'm sure it's not in most others. How many of us have turning tools we don't use?:D
Another Jim

[Frank&Earnest]

Frank I think you owe Tea Lady an apology.



No offense was meant, but I am happy to apologise if one was taken.

I accept your point about the role of pine in a traditional teaching paradigm. I hope you accept my point that it would have no role in my alternative paradigm. My curt remark did not make this sufficiently clear, for which I apologise.

You have made a value judgment that the traditional way is the right way. I respect that and accept that it is the right way to become a professional turner, who might have to plod through pine to make a living. I only ask you to respect a hobbyist's freedom to try a different way. I hope you accept that dismissing my tool as "gimmicky" does not provide a useful assessment of its strengths and weaknesses that would help such a hobbyist choose wisely.

I make no apology for expressing sincerely my concern that I could have "strung this argument out quite a bit", to use your words, and made Tea Lady feel obliged to waste her time for what was, in essence, a side issue detracting from the main argument.

I am much indebted to for his considered analysis of my argument. I would be equally indebted to you (and Tea Lady and anybody else) for providing useful objective evaluations of the features of the tool.

The potential beneficiaries of my argument are mainly people who do not have yet the expertise to contribute to it, so I am in the unfortunate position of having to defend it almost by myself. Please make allowances for this. I hope you acknowledge that I am a rational person and readily admit making a mistake when I have evidence of it.

[brendan stemp]

I can resist no longer.

I am feeling a bit sorry for you Frank; I'm sure you don't know which way to duck as you are copping it from all directions. I appreciate what you have written (although I have to concentrate too hard to understand it all) and what you are trying to do with this tool.

The older I get, the more I see in the woodturning world, the more I teach woodturning the more I realise that there are some that just don't get it, (Jim and will remember one particular example of this in Horsham this year; not a forumite) especially when it comes to the skew chisel. There are lots of things in this world I don't get; it's a matter of horses for courses or different strokes... but the fact is there are a lot of woodturners who find good tool technique difficult.

So, I definitely do not agree that all newbies should be expected to master the skew through hours of practise on pine. This would simply put some off the enjoyment they may otherwise get from woodturning. If that is what you want to do then so be it; go for it. However, I prefer the golf card approach. The only thing most are interested in when they see the golf score card is the final score and not how it was achieved. Sure there are some who want to swing the club correctly but there are lots who simply want to get the lowest score possible no matter how it is achieved. In the woodturning world there are lots who simply don't spend hours each week on the lathe, but will perhaps do a couple of hours on the weekend. They do not have the interest in achieving perfect technique but more want to produce something fairly quickly that looks pretty good. For quite a few woodturners they simply do not want to spend hours trying to master a tool technique and I would not push the point, especially if it is obvious woodturning is something that doesn't come naturally to them.

From what I have read your tool is catering for this type of turner and I see nothing wrong with this. I like to encourage turning safely and enjoyably. A focus on product over process is not such a bad thing sometimes, so long as safety is taken care of. Yes, I agree traditional techniques are important and have withstood the test of time because they are efficient and produce good results, but let's not ignore those who struggle with these techniques but still want to enjoy woodturning.

I do a lot of spindle work especially with the recorders I make and use a skew in a traditional way seldom to make them. I can achieve better results using other means. Trying to roll a bead 1.2mm wide with a skew chisel ain't fun.

Is your tool a gimmick? I don't know so I would like to have a go with one to broaden my experiences and have a better understanding of what you are trying to do. I will make my judgement after I've taken it for a good spin. I have always thought the Sorby spindle master was a good tool because it provided an alternative to the skew and spindle gouges.

I will now run for cover and search for the flack jacket.

[Frank&Earnest]

Where is the emoticon for genuflection? I need one!

Thanks Brendan, I have run out of cutters but as soon as I get a new box I'll send one tool to you. No charge, you have made my day. :)

[rsser]

I agree with Brendan.

Whatever works.

I don't hold with uncritical following of what tradition dictates, cos any follower of history knows that traditions change. (eg. Nish's Creative Woodturning would have us hollow bowls with scrapers; well, there are now a number of alternatives and there were at the time too).

And some tools you make friends with and some you don't.

I was sceptical about the EasyWoodTools - TCT 'scrapers' - til I tried some out. They can adeptly shape both Radiata and blackwood and leave a darn good finish. Planing Radiata, you'd be hard pressed to see the diff cp with other tools, as I posted above.

I applaud the efforts of anyone to try, document and reason about new ways of working. The proof of the pudding ...

So put me down for one Frank.

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks Ern, will do. I called Leuco again and it will be 2 weeks before I get resupplied, so about 3 by the time you get it.

[rsser]

No rush Frank.

We're coming over to the Nth of your state and elsewhere for a month or so, to wallow in the mud. You have better coloured stuff than we do.

[scorpio_oz]

Hi,

How does your tool differ from these?

Tools (http://www.woodchuck-tools.com/Tools.htm)

Because these will cut on all three sides, and for roughing, push straight in and then cut with the side by drawing along the work.

Finish isn't too bad, not as good as a skew, or bowl gouge, but close, and roughs down quickly, faster than a a roughing gouge, or at least me and my roughing gouge.

Regards

-Gavin

[Frank&Earnest]

Hi Gavin. I went through that stage, the further improvement is that by using a hexagonal shaft the 60 degree angle of the side of the shaft creates an almost continuous bevel with the 55 degree bevel of the cutter, so you can "rub" the side bevel while rolling and shear scrape/cut at 60 degrees angle with the shaft fully supported by the toolrest.

[tea lady]

You have made a value judgment that the traditional way is the right way. I respect that and accept that it is the right way to become a professional turner, who might have to plod through pine to make a living. I only ask you to respect a hobbyist's freedom to try a different way. I hope you accept that dismissing my tool as "gimmicky" does not provide a useful assessment of its strengths and weaknesses that would help such a hobbyist choose wisely.



The potential beneficiaries of my argument are mainly people who do not have yet the expertise to contribute to it, so I am in the unfortunate position of having to defend it almost by myself. Please make allowances for this. I hope you acknowledge that I am a rational person and readily admit making a mistake when I have evidence of it.:rolleyes: :flog:

So you prolly think there should be an elevator to Mount Everest cos lots of people will never be able to get there other wise.

We obviously need a newbie to test this tool. How about you give one to the next person who registers asking for advice on what first turning chisels they should buy.

[Jim Carroll]

:rolleyes: :flog:


Luv it :2tsup:

[Chief Tiff]

I have to stand with Brendan on this.

I am one of those sad losers who cannot get to grips with a skew; whose attempts to roll beads usually result in dubiously decorative spirals. This was quite depressing as I pride myself on my ability to master most hand skills that interest me. I avoided spindle work as much as possible; this is incredibly easy when you only turn for your own "pleasure". Then I read a book on pen turning (the author escapes me at the moment) where the Spindlemaster was recommended for the terminally inept. I looked it up on this forum and was a bit put off by the number of negative reviews, but purchased one regardless. Wow! I can now turn beads and coves! And I still can't use a skew, even for planing, but I don't actually care as I have alternative methods that work for me. This tool may well be in common use in a couple of decades, along with the Skewchigouge.

I recently purchased a fingernail profile bowl gouge. Once upon a time this item would have been derided, early bowl gouges were quite different. Go back a hundred years or so and the hook tool was more widespread. Now of course the fingernail profile gouge is commonplace and widely respected. Scrapers are another similar area.

The point I wish to make is that F&E's tool is an alternative to one or more tools that some people find difficult to use. It isn't hugely unique in it's design or construction but follows a logical development path.

What I particularly admire about the way this item has been introduced is the document showing how it was developed, and the honest wish by the inventor for constructive critisism AND COMPARISON WITH CONTEMPORARY TOOLS. This could be a fairly easy tool to master and may encourage someone to try out the more difficult skew, but for someone who tamed the skew some time ago I agree it would probably be a step backwards. There is little incentive for more capable turners to purchase one and actually carry out a decent comparison, but this is what is required prior to making a considered negative opinion.

Here is my unqualified opinion: why not give it a go? I can use a spindle gouge but not fantastically well. I can't use a skew at all. I would probably compare this against my Spindlemaster rather than any other tool. I put myself well in the short-trousered learner catagory so maybe I would benefit from this tool but I have already aquired (and sort of mastered-ish) sufficient tools to achieve my desires at this point.

Ps Radiata pine for learners? When I first started turning my mentor told me to avoid that crap and stick to hardwood. Cheap hardwood isn't hard to get hold of; even in the middle of a city you can get hold of pallets etc.

[brendan stemp]

:rolleyes: :flog:

So you prolly think there should be an elevator to Mount Everest cos lots of people will never be able to get there other wise.


Quite a few years back I was into rockclimbing and dreamt of climbing Everest. To learn the ropes I went to the Mt. Cook area of NZ and did a mountaineering course. I realised whilst doing this course I simply didn't have what it would take to climb Everest. However, I would be happy to go back to Mt Cook and do the simpler, less demanding climbing routes there.

Anne Maria, there are a lot of woodturners out there who simply don't want to make the effort to learn the skew chisel techniques. They probably have tried, been bitten and been put off, or have some other reason. You might not understand this because you have the natural ability and motivation to master the skew, and indeed from what I saw of your skills at Wellington you are certainly well on the way to being a Skew Master (Mistress... whatever....) I too found it a fairly straight forward tool to use and so it took me quite a while to realise that there are some out there in woodturning world who don't get it and can't be bothered to get it and there are others who try to get it but still can't get it. We all have our talents in a variety of endeavours.

I can't quite understand the intense scrutiny Frank's tool has received. He is simply trying out something a little different that may or may not have a niche in the woodturning world and may or may not be worthwhile and beneficial to some. He certainly isn't making any outlandish claims or trying to deceive anyone. So I'm not sure why he is having to spend so much time defending his enthusiasm for woodturning and his inventive bent. He has spent a lot of time contemplating this idea, researching it and writing down his thoughts to share with us all and for this I applaud him. I am also prepared to support him in his endeavours if only for, what I think is a commendable effort.:)

And I'm not sure what the reference to beating a dead horse is all about. If it were me I would me taking some offence.

[Sturdee]

I can't quite understand the intense scrutiny Frank's tool has received. He is simply trying out something a little different that may or may not have a niche in the woodturning world and may or may not be worthwhile and beneficial to some. He certainly isn't making any outlandish claims or trying to deceive anyone. So I'm not sure why he is having to spend so much time defending his enthusiasm for woodturning and his inventive bent. He has spent a lot of time contemplating this idea, researching it and writing down his thoughts to share with us all and for this I applaud him. I am also prepared to support him in his endeavours if only for, what I think is a commendable effort.:)



:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

I've been away from this for a few days as I had more important things to worry about, namely my ongoing cancer treatment, and again a useful thread seems to degenerate into arguments and not contributing any real value.

Personally I'm still evaluating the long term cost (being the regular supply of inserts) vis a vis my bedan and the making of the adapted skew called the Skewart as outlined in the latest issue of the Australian Woodworker. No doubt that version of the skew will also be critizised by those who are adepts in the skew.

Peter.

[Paul39]

There are many paths to the same place.

All of the time spent promoting one tool or another, or how one should or should not turn a piece, could be better spent in front of a lathe with one's favorite set of tools.

If a nicely finished pleasing object is produced, it matters not to me if the turning tool used was an angle grinder starting with a 36 grit disk.

[mic-d]

I can't quite understand the intense scrutiny Frank's tool has received. He is simply trying out something a little different that may or may not have a niche in the woodturning world and may or may not be worthwhile and beneficial to some. He certainly isn't making any outlandish claims or trying to deceive anyone. So I'm not sure why he is having to spend so much time defending his enthusiasm for woodturning and his inventive bent. He has spent a lot of time contemplating this idea, researching it and writing down his thoughts to share with us all and for this I applaud him. I am also prepared to support him in his endeavours if only for, what I think is a commendable effort.:)

And I'm not sure what the reference to beating a dead horse is all about. If it were me I would me taking some offence.

I am far from a beginner to turning and really don't understand much about this at all, but I just wanted to add my support F&E for the way you have gone about introducing your tool and the dignified way you have handled your responses. Well done.

Cheers
Michael

[tea lady]

OK! OK! Prolly my turn to apologise. :C Sorry F&E. I was a bit harsh. But lets not say no one should aspire to climbing Mount Everest, just cos you can climb Mt Cook instead, and its closer to home. :)

[Frank&Earnest]

No offence taken, TL, in an open forum small things like this can be expected.

And thanks to all of you who have expressed support, much appreciated.

The irony is that I actually bothered to learn the skew and became passably good with it. As regards Pinus radiata, it is on record that I praised the aesthetical value of well finished pieces made with it, while also saying that being so soft it detracts from the kind of durability generally deemed desirable for practical and artistic purposes. The first bed I bought in Australia was pine with turned colonial style posts, the one I sleep in now is carved walnut.

I admit that focusing on the skew for the sake of a smartar*e thread title has created more problems for me that it was worth, it focused the discussion on the ease of use and put in the shadows the versatility and economicality aspects.

Particularly, I never envisaged putting people off attempting Mt Everest by offering Mt Cook instead. I was just hoping that by doing Mt Cook first, some will find the will to aspire to better things and others will have fun at the level they are more comfortable with.

The real issue here is whether the results achievable with the tool are above mediocrity, as I claim, or condemn the user to it, as others seem to suggest. Because of my mediocrity I can not prove my claim by myself, people like Brendan certainly can.

[Frank&Earnest]

One specific point can be sorted out quickly: whether it is true that this tool can be used in a way that reduces the force applied perpendicularly to the axis of rotation and therefore allows certain kinds of work that would require a steady if done with conventional tools.

1 a 22x22x855mm strip of QLD stringybark flooring mounted, speed set at 1250rpm
2 roughed head and tailstock sections, straight pushing cut
3 closeup of the roughed part: reasonable surface
4 taking off the corners of the central section: light passes with the corner of the cutter
5 rounding the central section with the side of the cutter held at minimum side rake (say 5 degrees) pulling left
6 completed roughing
7 finishing cut like 5 but pushing right and slightly tapering in
8 sanding with 120 grit paper glued to a piece of wood, followed by 180 grit (not shown)
9 a generous coating of Shellawax
10 the result after burning in the shellawax at 2500 rpm.

[Frank&Earnest]

Hooray, the cutters have arrived from Germany. Which means that the Three Wise Men from the East will receive the tool for reviewing early next week. Can't wait for their comments! :)

[Frank&Earnest]

Given that my description was not very clear, these pictures can probably help explaining what I was trying to say about how the square or rounded side of the skew and the bedan and the 45 degree sharpening angle of the corner of the TC insert affect the rolling cut. It makes the rolling cut much easier to execute, whether it also improves the finish to a level comparable to cutting with a much more acute steel blade, as I am suggesting, is something anybody will have to assess by themselves.
The "insert" is here used bevel up for clarity, using it bevel down makes it easier because the bevel is more supported.

Pictures 1 and 2 "skew", 3 and 4 "bedan", 5 and 6 "TC insert".

[tea lady]

Love the big pics Frank. :2tsup:

Maybe your inserts work better that way, but that method of rolling beads isn't actually the one I use. I don't use the corner. :no: Apologies to Mike Darlow. :p It gets all splintery and messy. :shrug: If they are really narrow maybe they need to be done like that. :think: Anyway, its still easier and quicker to use a gouge. :shrug: :p

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks, I hope Mr Darlow does not sue me for dragging his name into the mud...:D

[RETIRED]

Love the big pics Frank. :2tsup:

Maybe your inserts work better that way, but that method of rolling beads isn't actually the one I use. I don't use the corner. :no: Apologies to Mike Darlow. :p It gets all splintery and messy. :shrug: If they are really narrow maybe they need to be done like that. :think: Anyway, its still easier and quicker to use a gouge. :shrug: :pGee, you have been watching.:wink:

[tea lady]

Gee, you have been watching.:wink:Sometimes its unavoidable! :p:D:cool:

[Frank&Earnest]

I guess this means that your preference is for

'You can totally plane a bead, taking the shaving with the short point exposed, but because the shaving is far wider you will have to thrust much harder. A useful method for wide, shallow beads is to start by planing. You then gradually thrust the tool forward so that the shaving moves down to the short point towards the end of the cut. This procedure is called a slide cut" (page 91).

Hard thrusting seems to go well with axe wielding.:D

[RETIRED]

Just economical movement with much more control.

[RETIRED]

Just a question Frank.

How long did it take to turn this?


One specific point can be sorted out quickly: whether it is true that this tool can be used in a way that reduces the force applied perpendicularly to the axis of rotation and therefore allows certain kinds of work that would require a steady if done with conventional tools.

1 a 22x22x855mm strip of QLD stringybark flooring mounted, speed set at 1250rpm
2 roughed head and tailstock sections, straight pushing cut
3 closeup of the roughed part: reasonable surface
4 taking off the corners of the central section: light passes with the corner of the cutter
5 rounding the central section with the side of the cutter held at minimum side rake (say 5 degrees) pulling left
6 completed roughing
7 finishing cut like 5 but pushing right and slightly tapering in
8 sanding with 120 grit paper glued to a piece of wood, followed by 180 grit (not shown)
9 a generous coating of Shellawax
10 the result after burning in the shellawax at 2500 rpm.

[Frank&Earnest]

Not sure, , I am not in the habit of keeping time ( I stopped wearing a watch the day I retired, on principle :) ) and always do a million things at once. About half an hour of actual work including sanding and polishing, I would say. For you, my guess is that if the job can be done with either, you should allow for 50% more time than you would need with the tools you are used to. In general, this tool can do quick roughing, as we have already established, and decent finishing if used slowly and carefully taking very fine shavings. Somebody with your expertise can also crank up the speed to a more effective level, 1250 rpm was just about the practical minimum, I think.

Which might mean that if you do it that slowly you are good enough to do it with a skew and no hand steady also... I am happy with that. :;

[brendan stemp]

I have been away in NZ for a week so got back to find my Tamed Skew parcel waiting for me. First thing to do was put a handle on it but felt it best to cut 4" off the shaft before doing so. Had a play today and my first impressions are favourable. Rolled a few beads and it felt good and the cuts on the F/Back redgum were clean. I haven't done a lot with it (I need to something that earns money) so will get back to you when I have had more time to play.

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks Brendan, much appreciated.

[RETIRED]

Mine is here too.

[Frank&Earnest]

Excellent. Ern's is probably in the letterbox while he is walking around in the desert...:)

[RETIRED]

the challenge.

This stick is turned from Vic Ash the same dimensions as Franks i.e. 22 mm x 22mm x 850mm long.

It took 4.5 mins to turn which included playing with Franks new weapon (more on that later) and a further 5 mins to sand to 400#, EEE and Glow. I then resorted to tried and true tools and methods.

Trying Franks.
148873148874

Roughing using the gouge.


148871148872148875

Finishing cut with skew.

148876

Sanding.

148877

Final polish.

148870

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

It took 4.5 mins to turn which included playing with Franks new weapon (more on that later)

Tap-tap-taps foot, glancing at watch. How later is "later?"

:innocent:

[DJ’s Timber]

I then resorted to tried and true tools and methods.

Roughing using the gouge.

Finishing cut with skew.



So 4.5 mins with Frank's tool but how long with R/gouge and skew?

[RETIRED]

So 4.5 mins with Frank's tool but how long with R/gouge and skew?That was with my tools.:rolleyes:

[RETIRED]

Tap-tap-taps foot, glancing at watch. How later is "later?"

:innocent:When I have finished playing with it. :wink:Probably by Monday.

[jefferson]

,

4.5 minutes? :p

You must have been playing up for the camera shots. Seems to me you shoulda done it quicker. :D:D:D Afterall, you were using tools made for the job.

Seriously though, I firmly believe the insert tools have a place. I am yet to see a better scraper for finishing the inside of box bases etc with a long tool over-hang. Or a round carbide cutter for detailing decades old sun-dried redgum.

Post script - what's the difference between Frank's tool and say an EasyWood Ci1 Rougher?

[rsser]

Essentially, the diff is in the way Frank presents his tool to the wood.

...

Many thanks Frank. Looking forward to it.

Now out of the desert, which wasn't red sunlit plains extended at all but bloody green! I was robbed :wink: But the wildflowers are exceptional.

[Frank&Earnest]

Good, everybody kitted and ready to go!

Ern, it's true that I use a cutting presentation besides the scraping one, but I would have thougth that the acute corner (as you mentioned) and the triple bevel were much more important differences. :?

, your photos seem to show you using a hand steady. Does that mean that you forfeited the challenge? I never challenged time...:)

[rsser]

Hi Frank,

Apologies; I'm still operating on a skim read of this thread and will give it a closer reading before heading back to the lathe.

Cheers from Quorn.

Ern

[Frank&Earnest]

You are in Quorn and the wildflowers are exceptional? I have to get there, last time we went there were none because of the drought. The lathe can wait. :D