Lathe restoration

[Randir]

Hi all

I've been looking at doing some woodturning for some time now but found that buying a lathe and tools and chucks etc. etc. becomes prohibitvely expensive so I shelved the idea until I had some spare money sitting around.

Instead I found someone selling an old lathe that's been sitting in their shed for somewhere between 10 and 30 years without being used very much, and they sold it to me for beer money and even threw in some tools.

It looks to me like it needs a bit of TLC, and I thought before I dive right in I would see if anyone had some advice as to things I should or (maybe more importantly) shouldn't do. My first port of call will be to cover just about everything in WD-40 to lubricate and clean off the rust, but I haven't thought much beyond that yet.

Bearing in mind I haven't done any turning apart from a little bowl in high school woodwork, does anyone have any advice?

I'll post photos of any parts anyone wants to see, or describe whatever I can, I just don't want to make this post any more mammoth right now.

[switt775]

A couple of pictures, plus any make and model info would be a good start.

Once people have an idea what you've got, I'm sure there will be plenty of good advice available.

[munruben]

I agree, few pics would be good.:2tsup:

[Grommett]

Looking forward to the WIP :D. I am sure there will be lots of advice:rolleyes:. But yes clean up first then pics.

[hughie]

Randir,

Start the ball rolling with make and model, you never know somebody may actually have one the same.

[Randir]

Thanks for all the responses! I'm glad there's some interest.

I took a bunch of photos and have attached some of them. As I said, if anyone wants close ups etc. it only takes me a second to snap a shot.

It is a Craftmaster WL-1000. As you can see the sticker on the motor was never filled in, so I don't know anything about that.

It seems to me to work fine. I turned it on and watched it for a while (with nothing in there) and it seems to spin true, in that theres no wobble in the plate on the headstock. A few of the knobs are pretty stiff and the tool rest and tail stock don't slide smoothly, but that should all be fixed with WD-40.

The two issues I don't have intuitive answers to:
The variable speed pulleys: Do I need to do anything to them? Are there any bearings in there that might need opening and greasing? Is the belt likely to need replacing? I haven't had a thorough check of the belt yet for perished-rubber-cracks, but I assume that if I don't find any it will be fine to use.
The other issue is the motor. I'm not so hot with motors and electronics, so is there anything I need to be wary of with an old motor that hasn't been run for ten years?

Thanks
Brendan

[artme]

There are several variations of this type of lathe. It is retrievable and would be useful for basic bowl and platter turning and spindle work.

Its limitations are size and - possibly - speed range. plus the fact that it does not have a hollow tail and head stock, These are important so that you can use differing morse taper centres or drill chucks. You cannot fit chucks to this type of lathe and that presents more limitations.

Still, at the right price (free:D) it is a good beginner lathe.

[thompy]

Artme not to hijack the thread but why is one unable to use a (headstock)chuck? surely an adaptor could be had? , i've looked at the tailstock end and nothing looks good there in terms of a drillchuck, i'm about to get my own similar in age and style to this one. cheers.

Neal.

[artme]

G'day Neal. I waslent similar lathe when we were in Brasil. You ar right about the tailstock as foud it very frustrating and could see prolems down the track with wear and tear replacing that centre would be a PITA.

As for the headstock, I could not do anything that would give me accurcy.I had a very good machinist make an adaptor that screwed onto the spindle thread and then a drill chuck was screwed to that. The big problem was accuracy - The more attachments you have to screw on to get what you need/ want, the more slight innacuracies are magnified.

In the long run I gave up out of sheer frustraion.

Bare in mind that you would have to get parts specialy made and that, in Oz, becomes an expensive exercise. Better of putting the money to better use on a "proper" lathe.

[Randir]

Excuse my ignorance, but if I can't use a chuck then how do I hold a bowl or platter, which you said it would be appropriate for?

[artme]

You have to resort to the old method of screwing the blank to the face plate. Problem is you wind up with screw holes in the bottom of the piece. This method also limits the thickness - or should I say thiness - that can be achieved with the base.

You can also glue the blank to a sacrificial piece of timber so that the screws only penetrate that timber. This method also allows for better shaping of the bottom of.your bowls or platters.

[Randir]

I had a look at the lathe after your comment and thought it might have to be something like that. But, as you say, at the right price I really can't complain. I may end up just doing spindle work on this lathe and then buying a "proper" lathe if I think I'll do a lot of woodturning.

Brendan

[Paul39]

Randir,

I heat with wood, so I have a lot of various kinds of timber to choose from. I cut off a piece about the diameter of the log, split the timber down the middle, then cut off the corners to get it roughly 8 sided.

I then flatten the rounded part more or less parallel to the flat with an ax and screw the faceplate on, centering by eyeball.

If I am using dry timber I turn, sand, and finish the bowl, inside and outside, leaving a nice tall foot on the faceplate side.

Then I use a parting tool (see below) to start a groove, clearing the screws, stop the lathe, and finish with a hand saw. I turn the bowl by hand and saw round and round until it separates.

I put the bowl on a flat bench on a thin pad and with sandpaper on a board flatten the bottom. I turn it over on a flat bench and check that the rim is the same distance from the bench all around. I adjust by sanding, do my finer grits and finish.

Find an old turning book or three from the 50s to 70s. Library, used book stores. There are lots of techniques that do not require expensive equipment.

When cleaning up and unsticking your lathe, remember that WD-40 is not a lubricant. Use that and 400 - 600 grit sand paper to clean up the rusty places, wipe off and wipe with oil. 20 weight if you are going to buy it, what is left in the bottle after topping up your car's engine is fine. Unless the tailstock live center is catchy or gritty sounding, best leave that alone. That usually has grease in it. Same for the headstock bearings.

Parting tool: Stout junk store bread knife, 50 cents for mine, grind 2 - 3 mm off the sharp edge, grind point about 80 degrees, use dulled sharp edge on tool rest, ease top of knife into wood at center hight. Makes a thin cut. More than 13mm deep may grab unless you take another cut beside the first. Go slowly, it cuts fast.

Something to look at: Wood turning lathe tips:techniques: woodturning instruction (http://aroundthewoods.com/)

[Randir]

Paul
Thanks for the tips! I'll probably still spend a fair amount of time on spindleturning before that, but I've bookmarked this page so I can come back to your advice.
In terms of learning material, so far I'm primarily reading Woodturning: A Foundation Course, by Keith Rowley, as that seemed to be recommended by many people on this forum, but he uses chucks. I mentioned this to my brother however and he pulled out a woodworking book he has that has a description of bowlturning using screws, so I do have access to material.

On the parting tool - I do have an actual parting tool. Is there any reason you use a breadknife rather than a parting tool?

The bearings feel ok, I should just have to clean up the rails and the thread on the tailstock. This job is starting to look smaller than I originally thought it might be!

Brendan

[Paul39]

Brendan,

The bread knife parting tool makes a thinner cut. I also have a diamond shaped parting tool which I use for deeper cuts.

Assuming your tailstock thread is moving, even a little, apply WD-40 generously at each end and turn back and forth until it gets to to one end, spray the exposed thread and wind to the other end.

Spray and wind until it moves freely through the range, then repeat using oil a couple of times.

A Foundation Course, by Keith Rowley is a good book.

When we read advice about how to begin turning, there is a great deal of: one must have a variable speed lathe, a 4 jaw scroll chuck, M2 steel tools, a Tormek sharpening system, etc.

All of these things make turning more convenient and help make turnings faster, but people have been making wonderful turnings with primitive lathes, carbon steel tools, sharpened on a rock picked up off the ground for hundreds of years.

Correctly sharpened tools are very important. A 6 or 8 inch dry grinder with home made or bought jigs makes life much easier.

I think the best approach is a bit of reading and / or education and time in front of the lathe, in small sessions 1 - 2 hours at a time. If things are not going well stop, read about the process, come back later.

For skew practice, I make tool handles. A chip out or a spiral groove does not make so much difference. Other than tool handles I don't do spindle work.

Read and listen to advise from all turners, then do what works for you.

If 10 turners get together, there will be at least 15 opinions on the BEST way to do anything.

[artme]

Great link you hve posted there Paul Should be very beneficial to Brendan AND other turners!:):):)

[joe greiner]

A foot ring is more stable than a flat bottom for a bowl. An easy technique for professional treatment is to use a plywood disk on a faceplate, with a groove turned to mate with the rim of the bowl. Wrap some tape (duct, masking, filament strongest) across to the back of the disk to hold the bowl. It's described by Betty Scarpino on page 111 of "Lathes and Turning Techniques - The Best of Fine Woodworking" - ISBN 1-56158-021-X.

Cheers,
Joe

[Randir]

Paul: I see why the breadknife now. The thinner cut would make it much easier to saw straight afterwards, I imagine. And on sharpening, Rowley's companion video to his book has an excellent section on sharpening a variety of tools using a simple jig and a grinder similiar to the one I have here at home, so hopefully I'll be able to keep sharp tools without too much trouble (although I imagine getting the bevel right will take a bit of practice - it looks so easy in the video!).

Joe: Thanks. I'll look up the book if I find I'm unsatisfied with the methods I have available to me now.

[Randir]

(double post - different topic)

I've cleaned it up enough to start playing, and started just with some small square pine. As I'm rough cutting it to round, the threaded part of the tailstock (i forget the name - you do it up to clamp in the wood) is slowly undoing itself.

What might be the cause? My thought is perhaps the bearing in the tailstock isn't loose enough, but it doesn't feel rough at all when i spin it with nothing in there.

It has a collar on the thread which seems to do nothing at all (see tailstock photo from my second post). I assume this should be tight up against the post? It becomes loose again immediately on turning the lathe on.

How tight should I be doing it up? The points at each end are several mm into the wood, and it feels fairly tight to me.

For now I'll just keep turning and stop every few minutes to retighten.

[RETIRED]

Most tail stock have a spindle lock on them to stop that happening.

On yours I would hazard a guess and say that you have to tighten the knurled nut after you have the centre in the timber.

Loosen the knurled nut, tighten the spindle and then lock the knurled nut to the housing.

[Randir]

Most tail stock have a spindle lock on them to stop that happening.

On yours I would hazard a guess and say that you have to tighten the knurled nut after you have the centre in the timber.

Loosen the knurled nut, tighten the spindle and then lock the knurled nut to the housing.

Yeah, that's what I was doing. It seems to do nothing at all - the nut comes loose as soon as the lathe is started.

Brendan

[RETIRED]

OK then. Try this.

Tighten the spindle up, loosen it just a fraction, tighten the knurled nut up to the tailstock, hold the knurled nut and tighten both the knurled nut and spindle together.

[joe greiner]

Really stretching the imagination, but it's possible a previous user dismantled the tailstock and re-assembled it wrong. For RH threads (which is customary and appears here), the knurled jam nut would function better for locking on the live- (or especially dead-) center end of the tailstock, for normal rotation of the lathe. The hand wheel is probably attached to the shaft with a grub screw. (I hope).

The book has more info, of course, but my summary should be sufficient for trial.

Cheers,
Joe

[Randir]

Really stretching the imagination, but it's possible a previous user dismantled the tailstock and re-assembled it wrong. For RH threads (which is customary and appears here), the knurled jam nut would function better for locking on the live- (or especially dead-) center end of the tailstock, for normal rotation of the lathe. The hand wheel is probably attached to the shaft with a grub screw. (I hope).

The book has more info, of course, but my summary should be sufficient for trial.

Cheers,
Joe

See, that's what I thought. The nut should be on the other side of the post so that it pushes up against the post rather than just wandering along the thread towards the handle as it does now (I think that's what you're saying). But I can't see any way to take off the spindle bearing. The handle is attached with a grub screw, so I can take the nut off one side but not put it on the other.

The handle is also loose and needs a replacement, but that's a different story.


OK then. Try this.

Tighten the spindle up, loosen it just a fraction, tighten the knurled nut up to the tailstock, hold the knurled nut and tighten both the knurled nut and spindle together.

I'm guessing this is just to do it tighter? I haven't tried this but I did tighten the nut with some vice-grips yesterday and that seemed to help a bit. I was then cutting small round green wood rather than roughing square dry wood, so there was a lot less force pushing on it. I only had to rewind it every ~10 minutes rather than every ~5 (or 15 at one point when I forgot, and almost lost it all...)

Brendan

[joe greiner]

The live center bearing is probably attached by mysterious means, so this might improve the (likely) erroneous re-assembly:

Wind the knurled jam nut back to the handwheel.

Advance the quill with the handwheel to almost the back end of the tailstock, so as to expose lots of thread at the live center end.

Remove the handwheel and the knurled jam nut.

Wrap the exposed threaded shaft with inner-tube material (or similar) for protection.

Grip the protected shaft with pliers, and remove it from the tailstock body toward the headstock. Lubrication may be needed.

Clean all parts, and lubricate lightly.

Place the knurled jam nut on the threaded shaft, and run it almost to the live center.

Replace the threaded shaft into the tailstock body, with protection and pliers as for its removal.

When the threaded shaft projects far enough from the back of the tailstock, re-attach the handwheel, and wind the quill back to the parked position.


Proceed with normal operation, using the knurled jam nut for locking.


Cheers,
Joe

[Randir]

My brother pointed this out to me earlier, and was quite amused that I didn't think of taking the whole thing out myself. I can't try it today (I have to go to work shortly) and this super long weekend is pretty busy. I'll let you know when I've had a chance to get back to it.

I made a cute mushroom though :roll:

Brendan

[Paul39]

Very nice mushroom!!

[mañana]

G'Day Randir
My first lathe was identical to the one in your photos. Whilst I can't remember the exact configuration of that knurled lock-nut on the Tailstock, I reckon it would be better placed on the inside rather than on the outside. Possibly the handwheel would be easier to remove than the live centre. Then wind the spindle all the way through and re-position the lock-nut. Worth a try? The headstock spindle size was, if I remember correctly, 3/4 inch x 16 tpi. This size was, I think, on early Coronet and Record lathes, and so there were some Multi-Chuck thingos available in the early 90's to suit those lathes. You could possibly get spindle inserts to suit modern scroll chucks in 3/4 16 tpi, but really, I suggest you play with spindle turning initially without spending any money on this lathe. If you find you like woodturning and want to continue - then buy a second hand lathe - a MC1100 or whatever you can afford. Then you can join the rest of the woodturning fraternity in pouring money into a bottomless pit of having to buy a certain something to do that certain something.
Bon Voyage
Mick C.

[Grommett]

If you find you like woodturning and want to continue - then buy a second hand lathe - a MC1100 or whatever you can afford. Then you can join the rest of the woodturning fraternity in pouring money into a bottomless pit of having to buy a certain something to do that certain something.
Bon Voyage
Mick C.

Ah yes, the madness :U

[Randir]

Joe and Mick,
I did as you both suggested and put the lock nut on the head-side of the post. Tightening the nut by hand it actually appeared to be worse than when it was on the handle-side, but when I tightened it with vice-grips I turned for a good 15 minutes without having to retighten it. It's a pain having to use vicegrips every time to tighten and loosen it, and it damages the nut, but perhaps I'll have to make do with that for the moment. At some stage I'll make a nut with a handle so that I have a bit of leverage without using seperate tools.

My newest problem is to do with the headstock. If you look at the 'headstock.jpg' from my second post in this thread you'll see that there's an enourmous green faceplate with the point only sticking out of the centre perhaps 12-14mm. This means I have perhaps 2-5mm past the wood that I'm turning before my tool would hit the metal faceplate, which means I have to be painfully slow and careful at that end.
Any idea how I would take that faceplate off? I can't see any grub screws like on the handle, and it doesn't seem to just tug off (although I haven't been too forceful with that).

Brendan

[Paul39]

Joe and Mick,
At some stage I'll make a nut with a handle so that I have a bit of leverage without using seperate tools.


Any idea how I would take that faceplate off? I can't see any grub screws like on the handle, and it doesn't seem to just tug off (although I haven't been too forceful with that).Brendan

If there is a nuts and bolts place near, the next time you have the tailstock apart take it there and buy two hex nuts that screw on to the threaded part. Then you can use a wrench on one and have a handle welded on the other.

As best as I can see the faceplate is threaded on. Liberally squirt your favorite penetrating oil on both sides, let set overnight, squirt more on both sides. It would be expensive to machine the faceplate and spindle in one piece. It could be a press fit and then welded. The most logical is screwed on, and when turning the vibration and twisting tightens it.

See if there are flats or a hex on the spindle behind the face plate. If so use a wrench instead of the rope trick below.

Look for the grub screw or screws holding the pulley on the headstock shaft and tighten them as much as you can.

Drill three holes that correspond to the three spears sticking out of the faceplate towards the end of a piece of 50mm X 75mm timber about 500mm long. A hunk off the bottom of a free shipping pallet is perfect. Put the timber on the faceplate and run the tailstock up tight and lock it.

Position the timber at about the 10 o'clock position, looking from the tailstock end. Put the V-belt on the slowest position - big pulley on spindle, small pulley on motor. Get some cotton clothes line or rope of about that size and tie the V-belt together close to the big pulley, 5 - 7 tight turns, and wind it between the pulley and the headstock to immobilize the headstock spindle.

Mark the intersection of the spindle and faceplate and anything else that is between the bearing and faceplate. Get a hunk of timber or stout limb 50mm round or square about 600 mm long. Give the timber attached to the faceplate a very fast whack with your club. You want a shock, like a karate chop.

See if anything has moved. With luck the first whack will loosen it. If not, again. Don't be shy, fast and hard. Check the marks to see if anything has moved.

If no movement, more penetrating oil, heat the face plate with a hair dryer on high or a heat gun, with a 4 -6 oz. hammer tap, tap, tap, lightly on the face plate close to the middle, more oil.

With a hot face plate, oil running all over the place, give it three more whacks.

If it is not loose by now, resign yourself to use the lathe as is.

After it has come loose or not, check the grub screws on the pulleys on the spindle and motor.

If the plate comes off, run it on and off several times with lots of lubricating oil, then wipe off. Run the lathe slowly and shine the flat on the shaft that goes against the face plate with 400 or 600 sandpaper. Lay the faceplate face down and using a block of wood and 400 - 600 sandpaper shine the flat that goes against the spindle.

Those two flats are what keep the face plate from wobbling, so we do not want ot take off metal, just the rust. Keep everything lightly oiled and clean internal threads and mating faces before assembly.. A bottle brush dedicated to the lathe gets the chips out of the female threads.

I found The Craftsman Woodturner by Peter Child, 1971, reprinted 73, 74, 76, 77. He shows and tell how to do bowls and spindles with the minimum of equipment. Printed in London by G. Bell and Sons.

You might find it in the library or in a used book store.

I have been turning about 5 years and read a few things that I tried. I got better turnings faster.

He says one should be able to make a 3 X 12 inch bowl in one hour with one fixing on a face plate. I was given a bone dry maple log today. I split it down the middle and cut the corners off.

I mounted it to a faceplate, did the bottom, cut a spigot, remounted in the chuck, cut the rim and hollowed, using nothing but a 1/2 inch bowl gouge and a cut off tool. One and a half hours to ready to sand. MUCH faster than usual.

[joe greiner]

Unless the knurled nut has historic or sentimental value, you could just grind two flats to fit an open-end wrench; or 6 flats for complete hex, although 2 should be sufficient. With the nut held by vise-grips (for positioning), rest your hand-held Dremel on top of the tailstock body, for both flats.

Ditto Paul's suggestion about the headstock. The spindle and faceplate are most likely different materials, and one-piece construction is hard to believe.

Cheers,
Joe

[Paul39]

Good thought by Joe above. Lacking a Dremel tool, a "poor man's mill", a file with teeth only on top and bottom, smooth on the side.

Do one side, turn that to the bottom, get two sticks or two 150mm rulers. Give a few strokes to the top to make a flat, put ruler on top and bottom to check for parallel, adjust angle, continue until it fits wrench.

[artme]

Paul and Joe = You have both been so helpful to our new friend you ar getting GREENIES from me!

Randir= the lathe I had On loan that was similar to yours had a hex nut as a lock nut on the tailstock, so that simply required a spanner.

As for the Faceplate it should srew off.. Just lock the head stck spindle shaft well after following Paul's instructions. Off the lathe will be much easier to use for spindle work.

Nice mushroom BTW.:):)

[Randir]

Paul, Joe, I'm with artme. You've both been extremely helpful, and I have given you both reputation +'s. Unfortunately it only lets me give one each for the whole thread, not for each helpful post :q

I have a massive report due on friday so I don't know that I'll have time to get to it before next weekend. I'll walk through your advice as soon as I have a chance. There is a pair of flats on the headstock spindle that I should be able to grab with a wrench, avoiding your 'rope trick'.

Is an ordinary nut how tailstocks are usually locked? I'm having trouble putting it together in my head as to why it should work at all. If I have a nut which turns freely on a thread, then why does holding the nut still stop the thread from turning through it? My only thought is that when you jam the nut against something it twists it slightly, putting a pressure on the thread in some wrong direction.

Brendan

[Paul39]

Is an ordinary nut how tailstocks are usually locked? I'm having trouble putting it together in my head as to why it should work at all. If I have a nut which turns freely on a thread, then why does holding the nut still stop the thread from turning through it? My only thought is that when you jam the nut against something it twists it slightly, putting a pressure on the thread in some wrong direction.Brendan

On the better lathes there is a hole drilled along side the barrel of the tailstock, the tail shaft screw runs inside the barrel. A round shaft with a half round cut out fits down the hole, the barrel fitting through the cut out. When a screw on the top of the round shaft with the cut out is tightened, it binds the barrel.

I think your problem with the loosening of the tailshaft screw can be solved by putting a flat washer between the nut and the body of the tailstock. It probably does not matter on which side of the tailstock the washer and nut go.

I have removed screws from table legs that had a wood screw into the leg with a machine screw thread on the other end. I would put two nuts with a washer between and turn the inner nut with a wrench. The screw would come right out. If I did the same without the washer, both nuts would just come off.

By tightening a nut on a threaded shaft on the tailstock it puts side loading on the threads and causes friction. As the threads are oiled and the area of the thread surface small, there is not much friction. Add the vibration and the rotation of the turning towards backing out the tailstock screw, you have loosening.

Using a left hand screw would eliminate the unscrewing. Left hand screws cost more than off the shelf threaded rod.

[joe greiner]

Yep. That's exactly how jam nuts work. The thread inside the tailstock pushes in one direction, and the jam nut pushes the other way. Many similar applications: double nut (on threaded rod), stacked grub screws (in the same threaded hole), etc.

Beat me to it, Paul.:-

Cheers,
Joe

[Randir]

Ok. It seems a bit unreliable, is all. I'll try putting a washer in, although I'm not quite sure why it would help. Easy enough to test, anyway.

I don't know that I want to try and remove the bearing and put it onto a reverse threaded rod if I can avoid it. Although now that I think about it it might not be too hard... I'll consider that if the washer trick doesn't work.

Thanks again
Brendan