Flag pole WIP.

[RETIRED]

I have been asked a number of times how we do some of the long stuff that we do so I thought a Work in Progress might answer some of the questions.

The job is to turn a 9 meter flagpole to replace one that broke.

The Victorian Ash timber was laminated by Timber Engineered Structures and then machined to 210 x 210 MM by Premier Wood Machining Services.

The flagpole is 9 metres long with bottom 4 metres left square and the taper finishing at 90mm at the top. The taper is to run from the square and not a shoulder as we normally do.

We normally load these into the lathe from the end door but the weather has been that lousy here that we would have had to wear Arctic survival suits if we had opened that, so we opted to load it the way we do 5- metre posts by bringing it in through the front door suspended in the centre by the jib put across the tines of the fork lift.

I have never loaded a post this long this way and was a little unsure it could be done but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Before loading though a little preparation was needed.

We set the post up on trestles across the workshop using the jib on the forks to bring it in. Our workshop is 11 metres from the lathe to the door so not much room to spare.
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While Anne-Maria sanded the excess glue from the ends I prepped the lathe. This consists of cleaning all excess stuff (flat surface syndrome) off, cleaning and oiling the bed to allow the 70kilo tailstock to slide effortlessly out to where it was needed.
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Anne-Maria then centred the ends.
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We reattached the jib and got ready to put it in.
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The method is as follows:

We bring it in on the fork lift and attach the lead (headstock end) block and tackle.
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Whilst moving forward with the fork the lead block and tackle moves down the gantry and the post swings away from the fork.
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We keep moving forward until the post is at right angles to the fork.
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When the post is over the lathe we attach the tail block and tackle.
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Disconnect the jib and hopefully it all hangs on the block and tackles.
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It just made it in with about 300mm clearance to spare.

Now we just put it in the lathe like any regular piece of timber with one difference.

While the timber is just resting in the centres on the points we start the lathe and bore the drive spur into the timber so that it has a positive seat.
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To be continued. Time elapsed 1.5 hours.

[nz_carver]

Thats cool hope to see your workshop then I'm in MLB
In November :2tsup:

[Woodwould]

Very interesting. I just assumed flagpoles were shaved and whittled to shape.

[China]

Takes me back ! it's been a number years since I used to do big stuff

[cookie48]

That would be great to see live. Looking forward to the rest of the WIP

[Pat]

This will be good to watch.

[dr4g0nfly]

What is the twisting torque like when it starts to rotate and how do you stop it sagging along it's length?

[RETIRED]

Very interesting. I just assumed flagpoles were shaved and whittled to shape.Some still are but we have always turned or machined them.


What is the twisting torque like when it starts to rotate and how do you stop it sagging along it's length?Because of its size there is very little twisting torque and only about 1/8" sag.

All will be revealed in the next episode.

Sounds like a Sattaday Matinee.

[Ozkaban]

Very interesting WIP . I'll have to keep it in mind for next time I'm asked to make a 9m flagpole :D Mind you, getting it to my lathe would be easier as my shed is only 2m deep :cool: Might be a bit left hanging out the window though.

I'm amazed at the lack of flex and centre support. Does the fact that it's laminated help with that?

Cheers,
Dave

[Christos]

Watching this one.

[Sawdust Maker]

Interesting WIP
Thanks, :2tsup:
Might pull up a stool and sit and watch this one - who's got the anzacs (sorry we're in Vic, who's got the ripple cake :U)

I see you're using the short bed for this one :doh:

PS: I note that TL hasn't finished those chess pieces yet.

[NCArcher]

Some people have fun jobs. :2tsup:
Also watching.

[Waldo]

I was going to ask the same question as dr4g0nfly. With that asked I'll watch. :2tsup:

[Allan at Wallan]

Nothing to it !

I adapt the same methods when I want to turn a pen.:2tsup:

Allan

[sjm]

I adapt the same methods when I want to turn a pen.

By my calculations, this piece contains about 7330 pen blanks :oo: (not allowing for kerf)

[Byc]

My popcorn is ready

[Christos]

Nothing to it !

I adapt the same methods when I want to turn a pen.:2tsup:

Allan


Wow so much to reply on this comment. Here's one,

You start with this size and end up with a little pen? :U

[Ozceltic63]

i'd love to have a go at that. :2tsup:

[Grumpy John]

I had to take a walk over to 's to see this project for myself. Quite impressive, it's certainly one way to keep warm on these cold days. It looks like a bugger to turn as the timber is quite dry and it splinters quite badly.

That's in the distance.
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The wood is reall dry, no curlies just splinters and chips.
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I wonder if delivery is free also?
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The small lathe.
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[smiife]

hi ,
WOW!!!!!that is very interesting ,great WIP
can't wait for the next episode:2tsup::2tsup:
cheers smiife

[RETIRED]

Over night while it is only suspended on centres at each end we put a jack under it to support it so that it doesn't sag under its own weight.

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Now that the drive is in and secure we centre the post at where the turning actually starts. In this case it is 4 metres from the base.

We square a line around the whole post and then using a skew chisel make sure that all 4 corners hit.
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Before starting the lathe we fit the reduction gears in to reduce the speed down to 59 RPM for starters.
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This is the view from the headstock end. I am going to get a little exercise over the next day or two.
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Starting at 59 RPM we start it rotating with one hand on the switch. No scary bits. Up to the next speed, 76 Rpm, still no character building moments, so up 1 more, 83 Rpm. Slight vibration so back 1 to 76RPM.

We start turning at the headstock and reduce it to round about 700mm out and fit the steady.
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On smaller posts we make a round carrier with a square hole in it to fit the post we are turning.
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The steady then runs on this until we get a round section on the post itself.

In this case we did not have enough clearance between the post and the steady to be able to do it.

The post although strong was too flexible to start turning at the centre so we start from one end and move along the post fitting the steady as we go.
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At about 1600 mm from the headstock the steady is fitted and the post is now rigid enough to turn where the taper meets the round.

To calculate roughly where this will be, we use the good old chalk line.

We put nails in the headstock approx 90mm apart, this is the finished size.
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We then take a chalk line from the nail to the start of the taper and "ping the string". This honour went to Anne-Marias son.

This left us with a rough idea of what the post should look like.
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I know that some of you will say, "But you have a reducing diameter so that is not real accurate." You will notice that I said roughly, the rest is up to eyesight and experience.:D

With that done I start to turn the centre out to round. This is pure rough out and anything that is not a shape is waste.

Because of the type of timber (Vic Ash), so dry and laminated with grain going every direction and the slow speed at which you have to turn it, it tends to splinter rather badly.
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In order to overcome this problem, we don't want it to happen at the transition from square to taper, we use an electric plane to chamfer the edges.
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With the centre round, we install the steady and bump the speed up to about 100 RPM.
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I rough down the previously chamfered taper.
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I switch off the lathe and Grumpy John turns up so we have a well deserved cuppa.:D

To be continued. The easy bit tomorrow, Time spent today 4.5 hours and a lot of nervous tension.

[powderpost]

, if you get into trouble, Ken Wraight is not bad at spindle turning. Might pay to ring him for some advice? A bit out of my league... What do you reckon?
Jim

[RETIRED]

, if you get into trouble, Ken Wraight is not bad at spindle turning. Might pay to ring him for some advice? A bit out of my league... What do you reckon?
JimNah, he would spend all his time picking up the splinters to supply himself with blanks for the next 10 years.:D

Besides would take too long with those Dinky little tools. :roflmao:

I was thinking of getting you down to segment the post. :whistling2:

[sjm]

This is the view from the headstock end. I am going to get a little exercise over the next day or two.

I hope you keep count of the number of times you trip over that pallet :wink:

[cookie48]

Well we all know that the chipping mill in Tassie wants some. Just bag it and send it of. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the WIP

[RETIRED]

I hope you keep count of the number of times you trip over that pallet :wink:Haven't yet but now that you mentioned it I probably will. :D

It goes out tomorrow any way.

[springwater]

, I wouldn't mind getting a bit of the Vic ash mulch but just wondering if the glue is biodegradable, poisonous or carcinogenic or something of that nature?http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f8/175371d1310025597t-flag-pole-wip-free-mulch.jpg (http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f8/175371d1310025597-flag-pole-wip-free-mulch.jpg)I'm wondering how many footy fields there are in Australia and suppose once upon a time the goal posts and flag poles were all made of wood, spose also there would've been a few set-ups around for that demand and if laminated wood was the go back then?

[RETIRED]

The glue is resorcinol not that there is much of it.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

9M? :C

Glad I'm not putting that one up!

[springwater]

The glue is resorcinol not that there is much of it.

hmmm, might not be best to put on the vegies then

[A Duke]

Not a bad tooth pick there.

[wheelinround]

So where's the video it should go in the forum video section for hysterical I mean historical viewing. Come on AM get the video camera out.:U

I much prefer Jchapos "Stargate" steady :;

[tea lady]

I had to take a walk over to 's to see this project for myself.

The small lathe.
175372:UYou must have got there just after I left! :doh:

See those things on the Small lathe I turned them.:D (Maybe not one of them. :hmm: )

[dai sensei]

Watching this with interest, it reminds me of the masts my father used to make for sailing boats, just bigger.

He used to make them in the backyard, headstock pegged to the ground at one, the tailstock pegged at the other end of the yard. I was only 5 and my brother 11, so things are a bit sketchy, all I remember is that we had some sort of steadies made from timber crosses (2 tomatoe stakes knocked onto the ground?) and then us kids sat on the mast (ie we were the top rollers to the rest :-). He planed them approximately round before he started, and we had potatoe sacks to protect our rear ends from splinters, it was fun but still pretty rough on the rear :rolleyes:.

I thought they were huge, but just looked the size up and a Mirror mast is only 4.9m, so quite a bit shorter than this beast.

[artme]

Very instructive !! :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

Not that I want to turn a flagpole!:no:

[Avery]

So how are you going to finish it?


BLO - CA or about 20 coats of WOP?

[Sawdust Maker]

So how are you going to finish it?


BLO - CA or about 20 coats of WOP?


Na
Neil's flatout in his shed doing an extra large batch of Shellawax :rolleyes:

[Robomanic]

Nice WIP . Have you thought about mounting a camera in the rafters for time lapse footage? (you could just turn it off when the kettle boils :p)

[tea lady]

Nice WIP . Have you thought about mounting a camera in the rafters for time lapse footage? (you could just turn it off when the kettle boils :p)That would be cool! :U

[Grumpy John]

Trouble is people would get a true idea of how many cuppas the lad has in a day :whistling2:.

[sjm]

Nice WIP . Have you thought about mounting a camera in the rafters for time lapse footage? (you could just turn it off when the kettle boils :p)

+1, setup to take a photo every few minutes, then combine into a movie. Even a cheap web cam would be okay, and they'd be saved direct to the PC.

[Cliff Rogers]

Let us see that bugger jump out of the lathe & run across the road. :D

[Cliff Rogers]

Do you reckon you could drill a hole up the centre & stick a pen kit in it? :think:

That would break the pen record for sure. :D

[RETIRED]

No techy stuff this time, all perspiration and grunt work.

After roughing down the transition from square to round, I move to the other side of the steady and start to merge the start of the round back towards the steady so that I have a reference point for turning the top down to round.
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We fit the long steady rest now so that we do not have to keep moving rests and start roughing out the top of the post. We try to keep as much diameter as we can because we all know what happens when you reduce the diameter. It starts to whip and you do not want something this big starting to whip. Trust me.
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I use a 32 mm traditional spindle gouge as the roughing tool at the start to get rid of the bulk of the waste.

The reason that I use this is because with a normal "U" shaped spindle roughing gouge the corners can bite and rotate the gouge.

The smaller one removes a large amount of material whilst still having the cutting edge supported on the rest.

When down to round we revert back to the "U" shaped one to start taking finishing cuts.
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Now that the whole top section is a cylinder, we go to the headstock end and work out where the capital is going to go. We tidy that up with a skew.
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We then part in to the depth required.
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And size it.
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We start forming the taper by removing material from the headstock end near the capital and take a little more each time towards the transition (square).

As you can appreciate we are starting to get further and further from the rest. Not an ideal situation.

To overcome this I use what I call a "floating rest".

I loosen all the bolts holding the banjos to the bed just enough to let them slide. I leave the banjo at the start of the taper tight but loosen the support pin for the rest so that it can swivel. This allows the tool rest to rub on the work as it is being reduced in size with virtually no clearance.
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DO NOT TRY THIS WITH A NORMAL REST.

About half way through turning the taper we have a character building, NAY, a sphincter clenching moment. This brings about the flight or fight reaction with a mighty adrenalin rush.

The post starts to vibrate and set up harmonics which threaten to throw it (and me) clean out of the workshop.

A quick 8 metre sprint (Usain Bolt would have lost:wink:)to the tailstock, avoiding the pallet on the way. and tighten it up and it stops.

Switch off lathe (we have switches at both ends), wipe the sweat from the brow and order Anne-Maria to make a cup of tea.

I must mention that we check the tailstock frequently on these jobs but I hadn't done it for a while.

Composure regained, I fit another steady about half way along the taper to be safe.

With all under control I round over the capital so that it looks pretty and no water can hang there.

I carry on and get the taper done.
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With tall posts like this, a true taper that is straight is out of the question because when viewed from the ground they look like they are waisted in the centre so we tend to leave the taper "fuller" so that they seem to be parallel when looking at it. It also adds strength.

There is a lot of weight in a full blowing flag.

With the turning finished, comes the part that every turner (except KenW) hates. Sanding.

We use a power sander in the form of an 8" angle grinder starting with a 60# disc.
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We progress down to 120# and then start sanding by hand.
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We finish at 150# The post is being painted and anything after that is a waste of time.
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We round over the edges of the square section.
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A liberal coating of oil called Cutek just about completes the job.
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It will sit supported in the lathe over the weekend while it dries.

The finale next week. 5 hours and very nearly a years supply of toilet paper and a bucket full of valium.:D

[Groggy]

, you can buy kill switches that you carry on your body now. Might be a worthwhile investment for you.

[RETIRED]

, you can buy kill switches that you carry on your body now. Might be a worthwhile investment for you.Do they kill you before the object does?:roflmao:

[Waldo]

, I'm interested to know what the specs of the motor you're running on the lathe to turn the beast there?

[Woodwould]

, how often do you sharpen the tools on a job that size, or do you keep a selection pre-sharpened at the ready?

[RETIRED]

, I'm interested to know what the specs of the motor you're running on the lathe to turn the beast there?

3 HP.


, how often do you sharpen the tools on a job that size, or do you keep a selection pre-sharpened at the ready?

About every 5-10 mins.

[Waldo]

:2tsup:

[springwater]

:cool: Well done :2tsup:

[Claw Hama]

Now that was what I was talking about, bl_ _dy big magic wand but nothing quick about it I'm sure.

[NCArcher]

:2tsup: Thanks for the WIP . Nice work.
Have you considered a pull wire the length of the lathe. You could operate the stop from any position, even whist ducking. :duck:

[dai sensei]

Don't envy your position when it started the harmonics, but at the end it looks great :2tsup:

Hopefully you can get a photo of it standing up when complete.

[brendan stemp]

One of the most interesting tutorials that has been on this forum. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us. Hoping you will that lathe to SATurn so that you can gives a flag pole making demo.

Who's the flag pole for? Is that the biggest/longest you have made? Do you get many orders for them?

[tea lady]

One of the most interesting tutorials that has been on this forum. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us. Hoping you will that lathe to SATurn so that you can gives a flag pole making demo.

Who's the flag pole for? Is that the biggest/longest you have made? Do you get many orders for them?:think: How about we just bolt one mini lathe at one end of the hall, and another at the other end? :2tsup::D

[graemet]

Thanks for the lesson, . Somehow, I think it will be a while before I get to apply it !!!

[Cliff Rogers]

Is this what you would call a Polish lesson? :think:

[Sawdust Maker]

Is this what you would call a Polish lesson? :think:

Groan

Thanks for the lesson,
I reckon I could do one of those on my little lathe, but it would be in about 9 or 10 bits :doh:

[wheelinround]

Is this what you would call a Polish lesson? :think:

:roll:

That will mean he will be polishing the Pole or will it be Pole-lacqu

:no: Poles are generally white this comes from being indoors so long during winter

[RETIRED]

One of the most interesting tutorials that has been on this forum. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us. Hoping you will that lathe to SATurn so that you can gives a flag pole making demo. If someone pays me to unbolt it and supplies a semi trailer, you never know.

Who's the flag pole for? Is that the biggest/longest you have made? Do you get many orders for them?It is going to Eastern Beach near Geelong. We have done a 10 metre one. I have done about 5 over 6 metres but about 20 under that.


:think: How about we just bolt one mini lathe at one end of the hall, and another at the other end? :2tsup::DSeen that done for a small mast.


Is this what you would call a Polish lesson? :think:Nup. Ya wanna see me Pole Dance? Nearly better than my lathe Tango.:D

[tea lady]

nup. Ya wanna see me pole dance? Nearly better than my lathe tango.:dno!:c

[springwater]

Nup. Ya wanna see me Pole Dance? Nearly better than my lathe Tango.:D

YES :2tsup:

[Sawdust Maker]

Nup. Ya wanna see me Pole Dance? Nearly better than my lathe Tango.:D


:no:

Gawd, that's nightmare stuff