Morse Taper Issues

[Randir]

Hi all

I bought a second hand woodfast some time ago and have turned a few bits and pieces (nothing worth posting here just yet). This is more or less my first lathe so I maybe wasn't as savvy as I could have been when buying it.

He had a piece of rusty old reo-bar in the cabinet which he said was "for bashing out the bits" (dead centre etc). That should have clued me onto it in the first place. He was right, and to get anything out of the head stock needs a pretty good whack. Having now read about how much that is BAD, I've stopped turning until I clean it all up (which I think I have a handle on, but any tips would be welcome).

My main issue is the tailstock. There's a live centre in there that really, really doesn't want to come out. I haven't pulled apart the back end, but I'm a little bit loathe to tamper with that if I can avoid it. How might I loosen it?

Pics attached.

Thanks
Brendan

[Dropcat]

The centre is supposed to come out when you wind the shaft all the way back in. It's probably had the tang cut short though. WD40 and the rebar I suppose, unless you can put a block of wood between it and tailstock body, and wind it back in.

Calling that a live centre is a good way to start an argument. That's a rolling centre, thought is may have rusted up to become a dead centre. If you get it out and put it in the other end (still rusted up) then it's a live centre.

[Randir]

Well that was an easy solution. I'd put wood behind it and clobbered it to no avail, and had an elaborate plan for a frame that would distribute the force of a hammer evenly without generating a moment and wedging it in more, but I hadn't thought to just wind it back with some wood jammed around :doh:

It's covered in black gunk and dents and lumps, inside the tailstock and on the "rolling" centre. A bit of cleaning time coming up before anything goes back in there...

Thanks for the help

Brendan

[RETIRED]

Calling that a live centre is a good way to start an argument. That's a rolling centre, thought is may have rusted up to become a dead centre. If you get it out and put it in the other end (still rusted up) then it's a live centre.:?Eh???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[sjm]

:?Eh???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I think he was trying to say that when a live center rusts up, it becomes a dead center (doesn't spin). Then, when you put it in the other end (headstock) it spins, and becomes a live center.

[Tim the Timber Turner]

Calling that a live centre is a good way to start an argument. That's a rolling centre, thought is may have rusted up to become a dead centre. If you get it out and put it in the other end (still rusted up) then it's a live centre.

Never heard it called that in 30 years of woodturning:no:

Tim

[RETIRED]

Neither have I in the engineering trade or woodturning, however some company has listed them as rolling centres.

Maybe another case of some desk jockey making up a name that sticks.:rolleyes:

[RETIRED]

I think he was trying to say that when a live center rusts up, it becomes a dead center (doesn't spin). Then, when you put it in the other end (headstock) it spins, and becomes a live center.I was referring to the rolling centre bit Sean.

[DavidG]

Google search reveals that some Poms call a live center a rolling center.

[Drillit]

Hi Randir,
Suggest that you lift the tailstock end - say two bricks high and tip some pentrating oil down the end where the knock out bar enters and leave for a few days. I would also brush some on around where the centre enters the tailstock. Think that will work. Drillit.

[DavidG]

As above and wind it our as far as possible and warm it up a bit with a gas torch to improve penetration.

Next step is to dismantle and use a press.

ps: I am down in conder if If you need help.

[Tim the Timber Turner]

This is what I'd try.

Reverse the tailstock on the bed.

Push it up against the head stock with a solid lump of wood on the bed as a spacer.

Lock the tailstock down hard.

The largest dia steel rod that will fit in the tailstock.

The biggest hammer in the workshop.

One big hit.:oo:

[jimbur]

I thought the problem had been solved:?

[sjm]

I thought the problem had been solved:?

So did I, but perhaps not everyone read the third post.

[smiife]

i have looked several times at this :?:?:?
is it just me or is the tailstock pointing in the wrong direction
:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:
cheers smiife

[Oldneweng]

No the tailstock is facing the right way. It is the lathe that is the problem! Needs turning around.

Dean

[Dropcat]

I think he was trying to say that when a live center rusts up, it becomes a dead center (doesn't spin). Then, when you put it in the other end (headstock) it spins, and becomes a live center.

Yeah, that. It's old terminology, originally you had just centers, if you put it in the headstock it was a live centre (powered), the same center in the tailstock became a dead center.

Then came ball bearings and you had the rolling center, now commonly known as a live center.

A few of the really old metal blokes get a bit stroppy when you get it wrong.

[Paul39]

Randir,

See post 18 of: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/woodfast-410-a-123670/index2.html

You can read the whole tale here: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/woodfast-410-a-123670/

Once I have the bit out of the morse taper socket, I use 400 grit paper wet with, WD-40, auto trans oil, kerosine or paraffin, and smooth the male part.

If the inside is rough, 400 grit wrapped around a stick or your finger, (POWER OFF!!!) wet as above, run in and out, round and round until it feels mostly smooth.

Then take the nice slick male part, wet as above and put gently into the socket and twist, add liquid and twist. Wipe off socket and male part and repeat until no rusty liquid comes off on a clean cloth or paper towel.

Do not be concerned about rusty pits on either side, there is plenty of surface to grab. Rust is an abrasive, so you will be polishing mating surfaces.

At this point the center should slip in and firmly grab in the socket, and a light tap on the knock out bar will release it. Keep the male and female parts lightly oiled and wipe with a clean cloth before putting together.

I have a 1 1/2 inch bottle brush that I run into the tail stock before putting in a wiped off center.

The knock out bar works best with a sharp strike with a 8 - 16 oz hammer, as the shock breaks the bond easier than a slow heavy whack, and is easier on the bearings.

If you turn for a long time between centers and the spindle becomes warm, and leave it until it becomes cool, the pressure of the tail stock pushing the male center into the warm and slightly enlarged socket will stick it when it becomes cool.

If one or two sharp whacks will not drive out the center, heat the spindle with a heat gun, hair dryer or carefully with a torch until it is just too warm to keep a finger on it.

A sharp whack will almost always free it at this point.

I am very pleased with my 15 year old Woodfast.

[hughie]

See post 18 of: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/woodfast-410-a-123670/index2.html

You can read the whole tale here: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/woodfast-410-a-123670/



Good tute Paul :2tsup: damaged morse tapers are a pain and in general very hard to resurrect. There are special tapered reamers on the market for morse tapers but if your not familar with thier operation etc. It can be a total disaster quick time.

I have an old lathe and looks like the tape to the tail stock is flogged out :~ :no: It looks like I wll have make a new tube for it, :~ not a happy camper about that, because I dont have a very accurate metal lathe to turn it up on.

[Paul39]

Hughie,

I bought a Chinese 2 Morse Taper finish reamer several years ago. It had a center hole in the back. Around $22 US back then. US made was 2 or 3 times that.

If you get the same, and your tail stock tube is in pretty good shape at the back,
- smaller - end, you could do the below:

1. Put a dead, or accurate live center in the spindle.

2. Dip the reamer in the cutting fluid of your choice and put it into the tail socket.

3. Run the tail stock up so that the center hole in the reamer fits into the point of the dead center, lock the tail stock down.

4. Advance the tail stock tube so that the reamer is snug in the bore. lock the tube.

5. Using a wrench on the square of the reamer turn until it moves freely, clockwise only.

6. Advance tube, lock, repeat 5. Pull tail stock away and remove chips from bore and reamer.

7. Repeat 3 through 6, keeping dead center point in spindle oiled, chips cleaned out, and cutting fluid in bore.

8. After a few repeats see if the reamer wiggles side to side in the bore when pulled away from the dead center.

9. When it is as tight as you like, clean out all the chips from the tube, and using a newish dead center put a smear of valve grinding compound the length of the center and rotate it around in the tube to smooth things up.

Abrasive rubbing compound for car paintwork or abrasive household cleanser will work as well, more slowly and with a finer finish.

10. Clean grit off of everything and lightly oil.

This will seat the centers a bit deeper into the bore, it should not make that much difference, but if the shoulder of a live center will not let it seat, you can grind a bit off the tail stock tube.

The above may not give you machinists accuracy but will be fine for working wood.

[Randir]

Well that all got a bit off track :U

The original problem is solved, for those confused, and it seems the live-dead-rolling centre problem might have been resolved too.

And I decided it was easier to turn around the tailstock than the lathe - but thanks for the suggestion:roll:


Once I have the bit out of the morse taper socket, I use 400 grit paper wet with, WD-40, auto trans oil, kerosine or paraffin, and smooth the male part.

If the inside is rough, 400 grit wrapped around a stick or your finger, (POWER OFF!!!) wet as above, run in and out, round and round until it feels mostly smooth.This was basically my plan, but then I've heard conflicting reports. Two (very experienced) turners told me never ever never go near a morse taper with WD-40 etc., but then others have told me that they've done it with no problem. I've been busy since I posted so I haven't had a go at cleaning it yet, but what do you guys think? Using the various liquids (solvents? whats the right word?) would certainly make cleaning easier but will it ruin my MT?

Cheers
Brendan

[Paul39]

Two (very experienced) turners told me never ever never go near a morse taper with WD-40 etc., but then others have told me that they've done it with no problem. Brendan

Possibly the very experienced turners have not had centers rusted into a spindle or tail stock.

You could use water as the medium for the grinding / polishing, then carefully wipe out and lightly oil. Moisture causes rust. I use rubbing alcohol when polishing auto brake cylinders, carefully wipe dry and rinse with brake fluid. Oil in the brake system destroys all the rubber seals, hoses, piston cups, and O rings.

Please note that I advocate cleaning all the parts and lightly oiling when you are finished.

When putting the taper into the socket, wipe off the male and female parts with a clean cloth. A tiny chip or burr will make the center wobble.

I would be curious as to what the experienced turners would use to keep the taper and and socket from rusting.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Two (very experienced) turners told me never ever never go near a morse taper with WD-40 etc., but then others have told me that they've done it with no problem.

WD-40 in an MT is OK; won't do any damage.

Where people come unstuck is relying on it to prevent rust - whether on the bed or in the MT - or as a permanent lube. It's for water displacement and a temporary lube... and is perfectly fine when used as such.

[Randir]

Please note that I advocate cleaning all the parts and lightly oiling when you are finished.


What oil would you recommend? Both for immediately on getting it up to standard now, and for ongoing maintenance? I use a silicon spray on the bed to keep it sealed and lubricated. Do I want the MT to be lubricated, or just protected from rust? It seems like lubricating a morse taper is counter to its purpose...

Brendan

[Paul39]

Randir,

Post # 22:

Please note that I advocate cleaning all the parts and lightly oiling when you are finished.

When putting the taper into the socket, wipe off the male and female parts with a clean cloth. A tiny chip or burr will make the center wobble.

Theory is wonderful, practice is sometimes different.

A little experiment:

Clean and dry the Morse Taper socket in your spindle.

Clean and dry the Morse Taper on a drive center, and insert it in the spindle socket, pressing in firmly with a little twist.

Seat a piece of timber big enough to get a good grip and run up the tail stock center and tighten as though were going to turn a spindle.

Hold the hand wheel and try to twist the timber clockwise. If all is as it should be, the drive center will drill into the timber or the timber will split.

Back off the tail center, remove the timber, knock out the drive center.

Insure the socket and taper on the drive center are clean, squirt, or spray your silicone, WD-40, 10W20 auto engine oil, auto transmission fluid, 3 in 1 oil, penetrating oil, or your favorite mouse milk into the socket and on the drive taper until it coats everything and is running off.

Assemble as before by pushing in with a twist. Put the timber in place and run up the tail stock center as before. Again hold the hand wheel and twist the timber clockwise.

Let us know the results.

Also see:

Morse Taper (http://www.beautifuliron.com/mttaper.htm)

Machine taper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_taper)