Tormek sharpening machine

[Dez Built]

Hi All,

This is my first time on the forum, and wow there is a lot of useful information.

I am about to get back into woodturning and i was thinking of purchasing a Tormek T 7 to sharpen all of my tools. I have found the cheapest ones to be online at Amazon for $630 US. My guess is that they would have an american plug on them and would not be suited for use in Australia.
Does anyone have some more info on these and where would be the best place to buy them from?:)

Thank you.

[PClark]

Hi Mate,

I have just bought a Tormek T7 I got it from Carba-Tec in Brisbane for a little bit more than Amazon I think it was around $900 I also got the wood turning kit for it at around $350. It has been outstanding, Everthing that needs to be sharpen in my workshop has been sharpened, and the other day I got the two knife jigs aswell so now my missus is happy too as all her knifes in the kitchen are sharp.

[Jim Carroll]

One thing to remember when buying from overseas that the warranty is not covered here in Australia

[Drillit]

Hello Dez Built,
From experience I suggest that you are very cautious about buying electrical equipment overseas. You might find that the conversion costs are such that you are worse off and as Jim rightly says - not warranty with the possibility of the product being damaged en route for which you have already paid for. I would suggest you look at the traditional suppliers and ebay to look for a good starter's package. I am sure that are folks in your area or nearby Brisbane that can help you. Further - it is most beneficial if you get some professional turner help with the learning process - invaluable. Joining a woodturning club - men's shed or the like if a massive help. Hope this helps. John M..

[KCH]

Hi Dez Built
We bought a T7 in September 2011 with a 10 year warranty included, spent a couple of hours watching the dvd's over and over and WOW!!!:2tsup: Sharp tools at last.

Kaye

[Dez Built]

Hi guys, thanks for your input. My initial thoughts were of caution also. In case anyone else is also thinking of buying one, i found a place on the sunshine coast called Get tools direct. They have the T 7 advertised for $860. Best I'v seen yet.

[Treecycle]

Maybe their price has dropped here (http://www.gettoolsdirect.com.au/bench-grinders/tormek-t7-water-cooled-shapening-system.html)

[brendan stemp]

Be warned; the $870 is just the start of the outlay when you go down the Tormek track. You will need to factor in the cost of all the jigs you will need to sharpen turning tools. ANd they aint cheap. I'm not a fan of the Tormek simply because of its cost. Sure they do a very good job but I reckon a good, affordable sharpening system is an 80 grit white wheel and a Woodcut Trugrind sharpening jig. And hone the tools with a diamond paddle. Considerably cheaper than the Tormek and with little noticeable difference in tool performance for most turners. I liken the Tormek to the $3000 wheels riders put on their pushbikes. Yeah they provide better aero dynamics and less drag but its only about 5%. So are they really worth it. Turners have been producing good turnings for decades without Tormeks so save your money Dez Built and use the savings to buy an extra chuck or some more tools. That's where my spending priorities would lie; unless of course you have bags of money to part with.

[China]

As brendan said!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nanigai]

I don't really disagree with Brendan & China but consider how long it will take to become proficient in using the white/blue or whatever grinding wheel. I burnt tools and ended up with some really poor edges for a long time before learning the secrets of the grinder, and still was a mile away from proficiency.

If you can afford a Tormek go for it, you will spend more quality time on the lathe with sharp tools and better turning as a result. Not forgetting tools that last longer. :)
I have not regretted my purchase one bit, I have regretted the wasted time trying to master sharpening skews and tools other than gouges on the grinder.:~

[CV Turner]

I'm with Brendan and China on this one!
:ranton:

Learn the basics of wood turning, which includes tool sharpening on a spark grinder with 80 and 120 grit wheels, and everything develops from there.

There seems to be a lot of snobbery creeping into the wood turning world. It appears if you don't use certain brand/type of grinder, tools and lathe your are not a real wood turner.

Sure get the best quality tools that you can afford, they will last longer, however, learn your craft first. After that if you have the funds you can splurge on equipment "you think" you need.

After many of years wood turning I still don't think I need a wet grinder and really cannot justify the price of one. If you do production work it slows you down having to spend 2/3 minutes to touch a chisel/gouge when a sparkie will take half the time.
:rantoff:

[Tim the Timber Turner]

I'm with Brendan on this one.

I had a Tormek and was lucky enough to get most of the jigs donated.

Spent a quite a few hours grinding my turning tools to shape, using the tormac jigs.

The first time I left home to do a demo without the tormek, I had to use a spark grinder.

This resulted in loosing all my tool angles and profiles.

Decided it was too much work to re-establish the angles with the tormek and went back to my 8" grinder.

Later I added a Truegrind jig and a 120g wheel, and that is where I'm at 10 years later.

A couple of other observations.

1: High speed steel tends to eat the softer standard wheel on the tormek.
There is a harder black wheel available which I understand overcomes this
problem, but it costs mega bucks compared to an aluminium oxide wheel.

2: Having a water trough on the grinder didn't work very well for me. I either
forgot to drop the tray after using, and the wheel got waterlogged on one
side. Or I forgot to cover the tormek after use and the water trough filled up with shavings, after a week funny looking mushrooms started to grow.

The tormek sat in the cupboard for a few years until I sold it to finance a new camera lens.

That was my experience.

Cheers

Tim:)

[rsser]

The Tormek system has two aspects.

1. Wet grinder. You don't need this with HSS turning tools with one poss. exception.

2. Jigging system. Tormek's is pretty good for fingernail or swept-back-wing gouges and other tools but it's not quite 'painting by numbers' as the advertising guff suggests. Their manual however is good value.

You can get the benefit of the jigging system by buying a Tormek Bench Grinder Mount and jigs and putting them in front of an AlOx or Diamond wheel. This means you can do a range of tools with the appropriate jig.

The exception is that the T. wheel is around #220 and when finely graded a nominal #1000. So that puts a nice finish on your edge which means it will cut more cleanly and longer than the finest AlOx grind wheel (at 8", #80 last I looked). And if you can tolerate rejigging then polish the edge on the leather wheel but there's a long jump to the 1-3 micron paste provided and I've never found that effective.

The downside of #220 on the Tormek is that it takes some time to reshape a bevel.

Overall my take is that a T. is a waste of money for the average turner.

If you are at the stage of benefiting from a honed/polished edge, there are cheaper alternatives.

HTH.

[vk4]

I am now retired , but have worked the last 26 years in the Abrasive Industry, as a sales rep.

I have called on many cabinet shops where they do production turning , and I have never seen a wet grinder of nay sort. They all use Spark grinders , and all sharpen free hand .

The finest WHITE WHEEL is 120# and the wheels range from 60# to 120# IE: 60,80,100,120.

Silicon Carbide is not suitable as it is too soft and will wear out very quickly, the GREY WHEELS are also Aluminum Oxide , but have a different Crystal structure and tend to gouge rather than shear , which the White wheels are designed to do.

Jeff

[rsser]

If Jeff you can locate a #120 white or pink AlOx wheel, in 8" with 5/8 or bush-set hole, pls let me know.

[powderpost]

As much as I hate to admit it.. :D, I agree with Tim whole heartedly. I bought a Tormek T7 recently and am sure I can get as sharp an edge on any of my tools with a spark wheel and a water stone. Admittedly I have had a bit of experience at tool sharpening. And it is a bludy lot cheaper too.
Jim

[RETIRED]

If Jeff you can locate a #120 white or pink AlOx wheel, in 8" with 5/8 or bush-set hole, pls let me know.I have one you are welcome to Ern.:D

[Jim Carroll]

If Jeff you can locate a #120 white or pink AlOx wheel, in 8" with 5/8 or bush-set hole, pls let me know.

Or if you want to buy a new one have a look here (http://cws.au.com/shop/item/gw200mm-x-120g-aluminium-oxide)

[brendan stemp]

I'm not trying to 'poo poo' the Tormek because I know it does a very good job. However, there is no denying they are a very expensive sharpening option and that there are, to my thinking, higher priority items to purchase and very acceptable cheaper options. I also wonder whether there is the thought that the Tormek is the silver bullet to all turning problems. I do have a Tormek but don't use it; I simply prefer the other options in my workshop.

[cadas]

There are other cheaper options to the tormek, machineryhouse sell the sheppach version for a couple of hundred.

Ive had both (tormek first, stolen then scheppach) and there is no real difference other than the 500$.

[jefferson]

I'm not trying to 'poo poo' the Tormek because I know it does a very good job. However, there is no denying they are a very expensive sharpening option and that there are, to my thinking, higher priority items to purchase and very acceptable cheaper options. I also wonder whether there is the thought that the Tormek is the silver bullet to all turning problems. I do have a Tormek but don't use it; I simply prefer the other options in my workshop.

For someone not trying to bag the Tormek system, you're not doing too bad a job of it, Brendan.

I've got two and both find regular use - from sharpening planer blades, wood chisels, knives and of course wood turning chisels. I also have the Truegrind set up and use it as well, plus the spark grinder attachment for the Tormek bar.

The short answer is that the Tommek user starts way ahead of the rest at all levels. I defy anyone to come forward and say you can sharpen mini chisels and small gouges on a spark grinder.

The jig which sets the bar on the A or B settings also makes the system faster than any other, including the True grind.

What else? Ken Wraight uses one. So does . Enough said.

[Big Shed]

I think the real value in the Tormek system is in the jigs, for me anyway.

In fact I was lucky enough to pick up some used Tormek jigs for less than half new cost.

I use these jigs on both my 8" spark grinder (Alox 120 wheel) and on my Scheppach Tiger 2500. I made up my own support to use the Tromek jigs on the spark grinder and feel that this combination cost effective.

I have used the Tormek T7 at a forum get together at Robbos' and whilst it is somewhat more refined than the Scheppach, the Scheppach does everything I ask of it.

To sum up, if you are starting in wood turning, I would look at a dry grinder with Alox 120 wheel and Tormek jigs, then add the Scheppach Tiger 2500 wet grinder. You could buy all of this new for less than the price of a Tormek T7.

[rsser]

Jeff, I can shape any high carbon tool on a #46 Norton 3X wheel running at something like 3000rpm. Yes, the T. is less likely to blue it and is quicker but how many hours do you have to work to pay for it? I've sold mine.

And I can get a better edge on a bench chisel etc by honing on a ceramic whetstone or using abrasive film on a bit of dowel than with the T. Try and take the machining marks out of a bowl gouge with the T. leather wheel. The paste is 3 microns max when what you often need to start with is 100 mu. (And there's no point in getting a fab polish on the bevel when the flute has tram tracks).

FWIW I have the T jigs and BGM in front of a #120 diamond wheel. Leaves a nice polish on the bevel (but does tend to raise a burr bigger than you'd expect).

cadas, as others here will tell you, Scheppach QC is hit and miss. You got lucky. But yes, it's a viable alternative if you have to have a wetgrinder. With HSS tools, you don't. If you have to have a T, then amateur turners should look at the T3.

, thanks, I'll pop down. Jim, thanks for the info. Last time I did the digging no-one in Aus had them.

[Jim Carroll]

, thanks, I'll pop down. Jim, thanks for the info. Last time I did the digging no-one in Aus had them.

Have been selling them for the last 18 years in both the 25mm and 40mm wide

[rsser]

Thanks Jim. Good to know.

[China]

I can and do sharpen mini gouges and chisels on a bench grinder, and have been doing so for 40 + years, and I can produce a shaving sharp edge on chisels and plane blades etc without the need to use 5 different grades of sharpening media. The point here is it is a useful piece of equipment, but not a nesessary piece of equipment and if you can't sharpen with the basic stuff buying a Tormec or one of it's clones will not solve your problems

[Jim Carroll]

The crux of all this argy bargy and some even Poo Poo others is that different people have different ways of sharpening their tools

Whether it is with a spark grinder with a Tru grind jig or a tormek or stones and laps.

We all want similar results , sharp tools, how sharp depends on each persons value of sharp.

The other one constant is that all agree that jigs are a necesity, not everyone works all day every day and can sharpen free hand, even some that do are now converts to jigs.

The main thing is that everyone has their way of doing it and others will disagree that is what makes the world go round.

It is good to try other jigs and fixtures and sometimes they will work better for you and you take them up as your way sometimes they dont and you stick to your tried and true way, dont try and discourage someone from trying a new tool or gadget just because you think your way is best.

[Durdge39]

Everyone's circumstance is different also. If you have no experience sharpening, and don't know what to do or what to look for, then you could likely justify the cost of a Tormek and its related jigs - should you have the funds to do so.

If you don't have the funds but still have no experience, then there is plenty of other ways to get a sharp edge. Read, experiment, adapt and apply. There is a myriad of cheaper ways to sharpen things, but the faster and cheaper it is, the more experience is often required. I freehand some things and still use jigs for others. Get what suits you, but don't be afraid to experiment with other options to build your skill base.

[CV Turner]

Wise words Jim & Durdge39!
You partly support my earlier argument, learn your craft. Experiment, try different methods get experience, using a T. is not the panacea or the only way of getting a good edge.

Try as some turners might, using a Tormek will not make them a better turner without the skill set that has to be learned.:no:

Just because Turner X uses a T. successfully does not mean that it is the "way" to sharpen and a must have in everyone's kit.

[jefferson]

I can and do sharpen mini gouges and chisels on a bench grinder, and have been doing so for 40 + years, and I can produce a shaving sharp edge on chisels and plane blades etc without the need to use 5 different grades of sharpening media. The point here is it is a useful piece of equipment, but not a nesessary piece of equipment and if you can't sharpen with the basic stuff buying a Tormec or one of it's clones will not solve your problems

China,

I haven't been around long enough to know whether mini turning chisels were available 40+ years ago but I have my doubts. Maybe you know things I do not. I have a set of HTs that may be 10+ years old, but not 40.

Tell you what, I'll ask Jim Carroll to send you 2 x 6mm P & N gouges (one spindle, the other a bowl gouge) and get you to sharpen them on your spark grinder. I assume you will be doing it free-hand. I'm expecting a nice shape to both and no burning.

More than happy to pay the freight. You send them back to me, let me know the cost (with forum pics before you send) and then we'll compare with my Tormek grinds.

And take some measurements before you start burning steel on your spark grinder.

And while you are at it, you might explain to potential Tormek owners how you sharpen knives, scissors, planer and plane planes, carving and turnings chisels etc on your spark grinder.

Sorry for the challenge but enough is enough. I've seen first-hand the tools of trade of production turners sharpened free-hand and they aint pretty. And sharpening free-hand should not be a skill you have to learn before you can turn.

[rustynail]

China,

I haven't been around long enough to know whether mini turning chisels were available 40+ years ago but I have my doubts. Maybe you know things I do not. I have a set of HTs that may be 10+ years old, but not 40.

Tell you what, I'll ask Jim Carroll to send you 2 x 6mm P & N gouges (one spindle, the other a bowl gouge) and get you to sharpen them on your spark grinder. I assume you will be doing it free-hand. I'm expecting a nice shape to both and no burning.

More than happy to pay the freight. You send them back to me, let me know the cost (with forum pics before you send) and then we'll compare with my Tormek grinds.

And take some measurements before you start burning steel on your spark grinder.

And while you are at it, you might explain to potential Tormek owners how you sharpen knives, scissors, planer and plane planes, carving and turnings chisels etc on your spark grinder.

Sorry for the challenge but enough is enough. I've seen first-hand the tools of trade of production turners sharpened free-hand and they aint pretty. And sharpening free-hand should not be a skill you have to learn before you can turn.

When I did my apprenticeship, some 40 years ago, we most definitely had to learn to sharpen freehand. This training was undertaken very early in the first year, which, I guess, means we learnt to sharpen before we learnt to turn. There were quite a few apprentices in each year, so it was easy to compare your skills against each other. Some never really mastered the art, while others picked it up quite quickly. This method of sharpening is very much an aquired skill improved over time. The term "spark grinder" seems somewhat derogatory for a tool that, over many years, has prooved to be most useful in the right hands. A variable speed grinder with the right wheel and a good operator is hard to beat when you start comparing prices.

[artme]

Interesting that no one has really pointed out that many who take up woodturning do so later in life and are most definitely NOT from a trade background.Sharpening wil be a real challenge for them.

I have a friend who sharpens his gouges freehand in a particular way - a way I wish I could emulate. I find tools aharpened this way cut better for me, but as I am unable to sharpen like this I just use a Trugrind type jig and I can do a pretty reasonable job with tools so sharpened.

It is hardly fair to criticise those who find sharpening difficult without a jig. We all just want to turn. To do that we need sharp tools. If this requires a jig, then amen to that.

[johnredl]

I seem to recall that the guy originally had a question about buying a tormek (all the to & fro was getting a bit much, I nearly forgot his question!).

If you have gotton to this point in the post and are still after a wet grinder, here is a link to a German made one. Hope it helps :)

http://www.busybeetools.com/products/GRINDER-10IN.-WET-BENCH-CSA.html

[China]

If you read my posts again you will notice that I am not intending to denegrate any person who wishes to use fancy machines, jigs, lots of of wet & dry or whatever. I just meant to point out that the same result can be achieved without huge expense and complicated equipment. Sorry Jeff I decline your offer of a challenge, I know what I am capable of and have no need to prove same

[brendan stemp]

For someone not trying to bag the Tormek system, you're not doing too bad a job of it, Brendan.

.

Exactly how have I bagged the T, Jeff. Apart from saying they were expensive (I would've thought this was just stating the obvious) I'm not sure what I have said to denegrade them. In fact I did say I thought they did a good job. The original post was asking about Tormeks and I was simply suggesting there were alternatives that were much cheaper; not better. I, at no stage, wanted to create or feel I have contributed to the creation of a Tormek v Sparky divide amongst forum members. If you are happy with your T then I have no problems and if anyone else wants to buy one then go ahead, I wont lose sleep over it. I'm sure you will be very happy with your purchase.

[brendan stemp]

The crux of all this argy bargy and some even Poo Poo others is that different people have different ways of sharpening their tools

Whether it is with a spark grinder with a Tru grind jig or a tormek or stones and laps.

We all want similar results , sharp tools, how sharp depends on each persons value of sharp.

The other one constant is that all agree that jigs are a necesity, not everyone works all day every day and can sharpen free hand, even some that do are now converts to jigs.

The main thing is that everyone has their way of doing it and others will disagree that is what makes the world go round.

It is good to try other jigs and fixtures and sometimes they will work better for you and you take them up as your way sometimes they dont and you stick to your tried and true way, dont try and discourage someone from trying a new tool or gadget just because you think your way is best.

I'm hoping these comments aren't directed at me. At no point have I tried to discourage anyone from any sharpening option. I thought my original comments were quite constructive and were not suggesting "my way was best" - just cheaper.

[mark david]

Hi don't forget the standard U,S voltage is 110 so you would need a step down tranfromer to use it.

[johnredl]

Hi don't forget the standard U,S voltage is 110 so you would need a step down tranfromer to use it.

I'm pretty sure u can get a cheap wall plug in transformer that's smaller than a double adaptor. Not bad for less that $200 tho!

[KevM]

I'm pretty sure u can get a cheap wall plug in transformer that's smaller than a double adaptor. Not bad for less that $200 tho!

Any chance of a link as I have not seen one?

[Jim Carroll]

I'm hoping these comments aren't directed at me. At no point have I tried to discourage anyone from any sharpening option. I thought my original comments were quite constructive and were not suggesting "my way was best" - just cheaper.

Not directed at anyone in particular just trying to get the point across that there was getting to be too much tooing and froing and creating a divide which there should not be.

I also liked the Poo Poo part, have not heard that in a long time.:D

One point I forgot to mention is that when new turners are taught to sharpen their tools that the person teaching them should be conversant with all types of sharpening from free hand to the wet stone style and then it is up to the newcomer to decide which way works best for them.

I hear all too often my mate reckons this is the best way to do something when he has not been given any other alternatives.
As artme indicated most of the newcomers come into woodturning at a later stage in their life and a lot do not have the required hand skills to go free hand so jigs are the best way to go. We see a lot of freehand grinding and it is not a pretty sight.

[Nanigai]

Well said Jim.

I also liked Artme's comments which exactly reflects my position.
Turning is a new venture for me during the last few years and no trade background, no 40 years of practice etc, etc,

I want to turn now while I still can, life is short, if I was younger I would probably spend more time looking at mastering the sparky freehand.

We are not all professional turners and some like me come here for help and generally get balanced information. :U

Cost is not always the only consideration.

[jefferson]

I forgot to mention the deal Tormek Aust. had going before Xmas. For around $850, you got a T7, plus the promise of 3 new grey wheels as and when you used them. At over $300 a pop just for the wheels, the deal was too good to pass up.

Didn't hear about it? Get onto Jim Carroll's mailing list! :D

[johnredl]

Any chance of a link as I have not seen one?

My friend has one, I'll ask him about it and get back to you later in the week.

[NeilS]

I am about to get back into woodturning and i was thinking of purchasing a Tormek T 7 to sharpen all of my tools.

I noted that Dez wanted the T7 to sharpen all of his tools. Although posted on the turning forum, I assumed that it was not just for turning tools.

If I had a swag of non-HSS blades that I needed to regularly sharpen for non-turning use, I would definitely consider a wet grinder of some sort, but not just for my turning tools.

Any ease, or consistency, of use provided by the T system is equally provided by other jig systems for the bench grinder.

I sharpened my turning tools by freehand until good jigs became more readily available. For the last ten years I have used jigs wherever possible. For me they are quicker.

My 8" diamond wheel does a very nice job on all of my turning tools, including my little 6mm detail gouge. The diamond wheel was the best spent $s so far for me on turning tool sharpening. Currently giving an 8" CBN wheel a test run on the other end of the grinder... too early for a verdict on that.

[rsser]

Written before Neil's post:

Too much of this 'debate' has been about the means and not the quality of the edge. Fitness for purpose is the goal.

I'm a fan of honing the edge where I want a good finish off the tool and I do this by hand. The applications where that pays dividends are in spindle turning with a skew, spindle or detail gouge; and in refining a bowl outside with a bowl or spindle gouge. NeilS has demonstrated clearly that it's of value with a scraper on a bowl too, and I sometimes burnish a hook for this purpose as well as for spindle pieces.

All the other turning I do is basically hacking and the edge quality doesn't matter that much. Regular touching up on any kind of wheel, using an aftermarket platform and freehand, does the job; inc. for fingernail grinds (just a matter of practice and not hard at all). Cheap and quick.

I teach my students to shape and hone a tool edge and offer a range of ways to do do; a Tormek is usually outside their reach and is unnecessary, so having owned one to evaluate for my own purposes I've ditched it.

I regard the whole setup as a naked emperor; the jigs are worth a look but there are others on the market.

[mick61]

G`day as long as the chisel is sharp it doesn`t matter how you got it that way I use a sparke grinder only because my missus wouldn`t let me spend the money on a tormek.
Mick:D

[issatree]

Hi Dez Built,
Yes, As Brendan said & China. Join a Wood Club, more so than a Men's Shed, as the Woodies have been at it a lot longer than the Shed Chaps.
I use a 60G. & a 120G. x 6in. / 150 wheels, & Sharpen Free Hand, & Mate you wouldn't want to sit on My Tools.
Yes it takes awhile to learn to get that good edge on your tools . We all went down that track at one time or another.
Don't Grind your Tools, Sharpen them.
Think about what Jefferson said, $300 for a wheel.
You can most likely get into as much trouble with a Tormek as you can with Grinder.
Put a groove in the Tormek, & try & get that out.
That's My 2 Cents worth, as I'd rather another Chuck & a couple of Tools.

[rustynail]

Interesting that no one has really pointed out that many who take up woodturning do so later in life and are most definitely NOT from a trade background.Sharpening wil be a real challenge for them.

I have a friend who sharpens his gouges freehand in a particular way - a way I wish I could emulate. I find tools aharpened this way cut better for me, but as I am unable to sharpen like this I just use a Trugrind type jig and I can do a pretty reasonable job with tools so sharpened.

It is hardly fair to criticise those who find sharpening difficult without a jig. We all just want to turn. To do that we need sharp tools. If this requires a jig, then amen to that.

My post was not intended to be critical of anyone using a jig and I understand fully the time required to master the art of freehand. My point was directed at those who are of the opinion that a professional job can't be done freehand.

[jefferson]

Exactly how have I bagged the T, Jeff.

Brendan, as a professional turner who has openly stated that he owns but does not use his Tormek says plenty. You've demonstrated at Turnfest, have written for the AWW and your work is shown across a fair slab of Victoria. If you're not using your Tormek, why not? Surely, there must be a reason. As one of the few pros here on the Board, spit it out and give us the whole story, not part of it.



Any ease, or consistency, of use provided my the T system is equally provided by other jig systems for the bench grinder.

Which jigs are you referring to, Neil? The Truegrind doesn't do scrapers well - you really need a platform for that. And if ALOX wheels are so good, why did you spend the $ and buy the diamond wheels at say $150 a pop? I've seen one in action and they definitely run cooler - a good selling point.




I regard the whole setup as a naked emperor; the jigs are worth a look but there are others on the market.

Fact is, Ern, you've been against the Tormek system from the start. You bought a Sheppach first and weren't happy with the quality. And the cost of the Tormek system has always riled you.

I can't understand your angst - $860 odd for a machine with a ten year guarantee, quality jigs (extra) and 4 wheels takes some tossing. That's $80 odd dollars PER YEAR for sharpening against the cost of what for ALOX wheels and grinder? Add in superior finish off the wheel and I'm sold.

I also smile at those here that say they do it all freehand and do it just as well as using a jig system, Tormek or not. The same people talk of tool snobbery! What a joke. Sharpening is a metalworking, not wood working skill, if anything. Just count the facets.

The general consensus seems divided.

That said, I've been to Turnfest the last 3 years and the WWW shows for the last 4 and the Tormeks continue to walk out the door from the tool shops. We are talking serious $ from serious turners. Why? The short answer is the system works, almost all of the time.

Sure, it can be slow. That's why you buy the BM100 bar. And it doesn't sharpen my 1 1/4 inch P & N roughing gouge. And bigs scrapers are a pain. And skews also don't seat too well in the jig. But it does sharpen most else, particularly my gouges and mini tools. TORMEK SHARP. Plus a miriad of other woodworking and non wood working tools.

Some say the system is slow. As a jig user, it is definitely faster than all I've tried, including the Truegrind. We are talking less that a minute to sharpen a bowl gouge once you are set and in the groove. And no second-guessing any angles or facets.

And ISSATREE, if you use the stone correctly, you don't furrow overmuch. Even if you do, the leveling system has you back on track in no time.

What else? Flatter concave bevels for start, due to the larger stone diameter. When the stone is dead, it is still larger than most ALOX wheels.

And did I mention sharp and easy to use? Almost fool-proof. Even Jeff proof.

I hear a lot about the cost. Amortised over its life, the investment is minimal.

And no bad accidents either. Just ask Guilo Marcolongolo about that. He's another pro on the circuit who is probably looking seriously at a Tormek.

No sparks, no fires, no noise. Time to reflect and work on the shape of your chisel. Then get it SHARP. I say it again, SHARP. Sharper than any ALOX or diamond wheel.

No question, as Ern has already indicated, it's not all A-Z. There is a learning curve to the Tormek system - the same learning curve for free-handers but a whole lot more forgiving. And precise. But with plenty of support via a great instruction manual and DVD.

Did I mention a 10 year warranty? Of course I did. Sharp? Band-aid sharp.

And all that adds up to a more enjoyable turning experience. Which is the reason for buying one in the first place.

[rsser]

Jeff, better do your forum research a bit better.

I was quite happy with the Scheppach and only went to the T. cos of all the fuss about it and I wanted to evaluate it so I could provide informed advice to my students. The cost of the T. is ridiculous and it doesn't yield on its promise of 'painting by numbers'. See all the queries on the T. forum in the US.

That said, it's a great tool say for regrinding the bevel of an A2 Veritas plane blade (3/16" thick, about 2" wide) Grinds quickly and doesn't blue. But the cost premium is also ridiculous and for those of us who are 'time-rich' a good bench grinder wheel will do the job.

Except in one oblique comment you haven't addressed the key issues of fitness for purpose and cost-effectiveness. Those are what a turner (and any other woodie) needs to know about.

You say the result is sharp on a T., better than a diamond wheel (and presumably simple hand honing). Have you tested this? Which T. wheel/grade are you taking as your benchmark?

Have a read of the tests by Neil and in American WoodTurner.

Let's not get tribal about this in respect of the OP concern. Let's get empirical.

Sounds like a song in there ;-)

[Big Shed]

I am watching this thread with some amusement (or should I say bemusement?).

The machine being described here by some with almost religious fervour is only an ordinary wet grinder, consisting of a shaft running in some bushes, friction driven by a simple electric motor.
It is being invested with almost magical powers that will turn you in to a "professional" turner almost overnight.
As for "value", well the "buy me now for $850 and I will give you $1200 in grind stones" puts that in perspective.

How did wood turners over the centuries get on without this magical machine? They didn't even have electricity, they used a foot driven wet wheel grinder (see the concept wasn't invented by Tormek, really).

I said before, and I say it again, the real value in the Tormek system is not in a $1000 wet grinder, it is in the jigs, which can be used on any grinder (even my very down market Scheppach) or a spark grinder with a wheel of your choosing.

Some people get way too evangelical about the tools we use, driven by market hype and commercial interest.

I think Brendan raised a valid point and does not deserve to be attacked for expressing his opinion.

[rustynail]

Now let me get this right..."It doesn't sharpen my 11/4 P&N roughing gouge and big scrapers are a pain and skews don't seat too well." And this thing costs over $800?

[Sturdee]

And this thing costs over $800? without the jigs which will nearly double the price.

I have the jigs and use it with my grinder and the seppach wet wheel grinder which is a better proposition for most pleasure turners where time is not of the essence but the journey is enjoyable.


Btw I have no problems with the scrapers and skews.


Peter.

[champs]

I'm happy to sit on the fence on this one as I use both methods with a reasonable degree of proficiency. The wet grind whatever brand it is has one serious advantage which has been overlooked in this post.
The absence of airborne fine particulate silicate or other mineral dust should be part of the consideration.

[Farnk]

Just as with any interest / hobby / artisan profession / etc. Turning is one that has a wide variety of technique, method and tools to accomplish a result.

The 'quality' of those results vary due to experience, individual taste, skill, the raw material and the demeanour of the turner as he/she applies steel to wood.

I am just a hobby turner and have been so for 10+ years. I claim no great skill nor experience in the craft. I turn wood for my own pleasure and sometimes I end up with an object that has either utility or a pleasing asthetic form.

On even rarer occasions I get both!!:D

I owe a debt of gratitude to the kind people on this forum who on the very day I registered, pointed to me to an ebay sale where I purchased my lathe (an unused MC900) for the princely sum of $102! This was a great step forward from the GMC I had been using for a couple of years previously.

I attended a gathering at 's once and was delighted at how welcoming and friendly everyone was! (BTW TL, I've learned not to 'choke' my chisels in a death grip anymore!)

I have succumbed at times over the years to the lure of purchasing additional tools, chisels and chucks, (as have we all!) but have tried to keep such expenditure within the context of a hobby turner.

At times, the argy-bargy on this forum does tend to get a bit heated. And as a long term lurker, the times when I see this happen most often is when the discussion is focussed upon "Model A" vs "Model B".

Such a discussion brings out comments of support from those who own a specific product (or would perhaps desire such) and comments of an opposite nature from others.

Usually within the first page of replies, the thread has degenerated, become personal and is of no practical use to the OP.

It is very similar to the discourse I would hear years back when I was in an Italian motorcycle owner's club. A new model would come out and overnight the collective opinion would shift in relation to the previous model. What was once lusted after and desired would be considered 'crap' overnight.

Owners of the previous model bike would strut indignantly and bemoan others who had made the (usually considerable) purchase of the new bike. The irony is that neither owner would have 1/4 of the skill needed to ride their bikes to their limits.

What strange creatures we are at times..

Hey OP, purchase the gear you can afford, then enjoy using it!
If you want the Tormek, GO FOR IT. I'd shy away from buying a US spec one, simply due to the hassle of downconverting 240VAC to 110VAC.

[NeilS]

Which jigs are you referring to, Neil? The Truegrind doesn't do scrapers well - you really need a platform for that. And if ALOX wheels are so good, why did you spend the $ and buy the diamond wheels at say $150 a pop? I've seen one in action and they definitely run cooler - a good selling point.



Jeff - I use custom made jigs. My point was that it is the jigs that provide the repeatability and the ease of use, and for that matter I consider a platform to be a jig as it repeatedly and predictably sets the grind angle.

It wasn't me who said that ALOX wheels were 'so good', but do think they are just fine and would be still happily using them if I hadn't progressed on to the diamond wheel. What I did say was "any ease, or consistency, of use provided by the T system is equally provided by other jig systems for the bench grinder".

As for the cost of the diamond wheels, yes they are expensive and a significant outlay compared to ALOX, but a little less than half the cost of a standard SG-250 Torment replacement wheel, and you don't have to buy a whole grinding machine and a swag of accessories to use it.

Having said the above, I'm not wanting to buy into any dry vs wet grinder trench warfare. I was in the thick of the Mac-PC skirmishes (as a referee) in an earlier life and see no value in such entrenched positions. If slow wet grinders ring your bell and you can afford it, go for it. As Farnk said... Enjoy! But, as Jim also said, there are a variety of quite satisfactory solutions to suit various needs and preferences.

Ern has made a good point about fitness for purpose. The edge I want on a kitchen knife is very different from the edge I want on a bowl gouge or the edge I want on a scraper. I don't need the same degree of sharpness on every tool. But, the edge off the diamond wheel is as good as I need for any of my turning needs. Your mileage may be different.

Jeff, if you like the flatter grind off a 10" wheel you may prefer the completely flat grind off a belt sander, and they run slower and thus grind cooler than an ALOX wheel.

PS - I'm a real fan of wet grinding Japanese knives, ie with flat waterstones.

[Acco]

G'day Guys and Gals

Most of you will won't know me by this username, but I was a regular known as DJ's Timber.

Have been following this thread with interest and as Big Shed said, bemusement :B

Anyway, thought I'd weight in, as I was sold after a particular weekend at 's where most that attended, will remember that I had my Vicmarc VL300 dancing in 's shed whilst turning a decent size redgum bowl (which is still sitting in the shed waiting to have the bottom flattened) and when Jeff bought his Tormek with him and stayed at my place for a few days.

Anyway, that first day at 's after most people left, I sharpened my P&N Gouge, it was either a 16mm Supa or Bowl Gouge, can't remember, on 's Tormek and yes it took time to establish the new grind but by boy did it cut well and it lasted by my reckoning, three times longer as it was a more refined edge as opposed to one off a spark grinder. And before you bag me, I've used and tried quite a few different jigs,etc. I can also sharpen drillbits by hand down to about 2mm on a spark grinder with a freshly faced wheel but mostly use my Drill Doctor (http://www.drilldoctor.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.pbv.tabs.intl.tpl&product_id=2662&category_id=77&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=144) now as my eyesight isn't the same as it was not to mention that they last longer.

I have since bought a T7 and also use it more for other purposes rather than Turning, heck I nearly sliced the tip of my finger off prior to Xmas sharpening some knives for one of my best mate's missus.

Point I'm trying to make here and also being from a metallurgy background and lots of experimenting with different methods, is that the use of jigs makes a big difference, regardless of type of grinder used.

I could have continued sharpening by hand and my Trugrind jig, and drill bits freehand but because I could afford to, I chose to go the T7 and Drill Doctor route as it removes the worry of overheating and also gives me a repeatable setting.

[Paul39]

I am a retired person with adequate but limited income.

I am sure the Tormek is a good grinder.

A little perspective:

I bought my first "good" lathe, an almost new Hegner 175, (350mm swing) with Oneway chuck, Oneway live center set, 8 inch 1725 rpm grinder - 80 & 120 grit wheels, with platform and V pocket with Varigrind and fixed bowl gouge jigs. All for $500

I now have 120 grit wheels on both sides of the grinder, V pocket one one side, and platform on the other. I use the jigs and my bowl gouges slice the hardest wood and leave a polished surface.

I can sharpen my heavy scrapers and Bedan type tools on the platform with a 5 second swipe. For the final scraping I hone the scraper top on a piece of 400 grit paper on the lathe bed.

Spindle gouges are done freehand. I have a fair amount of carbon steel tools that are sharpened with a light touch and quickly. I rarely blue an edge.

My accursed skews came with good bevels and have only been sharpened by
honing on either a flat diamond pad or with 400grit on the lathe bed.

My 20 inch swing, short bed variable speed Woodfast cost $850.

The Woodfast is a lot more value to me than a Tormek.

One damn fool's opinion.

[Dean M]

With any wet grinder do you need to lower the bucket when not in use all the time? Will it dry out if left over night ?? Just have not seen this clearly answered for a potential new user. ta

[rsser]

I found it worthwhile to empty and clean it of grit and swarf after a major session. HC steel tends to speckle the wheel with rust.

Also it's advisable to have the wheel dry out if you live in sub-zero temps as it can crack on freezing.

[Big Shed]

With any wet grinder do you need to lower the bucket when not in use all the time? Will it dry out if left over night ?? Just have not seen this clearly answered for a potential new user. ta

I take my water tray off and rinse it out after a days' turning/sharpening, then start the next session with fresh water. As I don't have running water in the shed I keep a plastic water bottle next to the grinder to top the tray up as it takes a fair bit water with a dry stone.

If the stone is left to sit in the water it tends to be out of balance for a short time until the water distribution evens out again.

[NCArcher]

With any wet grinder do you need to lower the bucket when not in use all the time? Will it dry out if left over night ?? Just have not seen this clearly answered for a potential new user. ta

I always empty and clean the bucket before quiting for the day. There is usually a surprising amount of gunk in there.

[John Saxton]

I always empty and clean the bucket before quiting for the day. There is usually a surprising amount of gunk in there.

Depending on the amount of use the bucket can collect a fair amount of sharpening residue and it is a good practice to clean it out when finished and to flush the bucket thoroughly.
As has been mentioned the stone will load up with this this residue if left in the bucket from previous uses of the machine.

I am happy with my T7,I like the jigs one of the reasons I am pleased to have it.

Cheers:)

[Optimark]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> The T7 Tormek unit has a rare Earth magnet inside a small external pocket and is attached under the high water mark. At the end of any sharpening session you will find virtually all metal pieces attached to the plastic inner wall.

Simply emptying the water container out, then using a rag to wipe away the metal filings is sufficient to clean them away.

The grey stuff in the bottom is the part of the wheel that has been ground away either by sharpening or truing up to square.

I don’t believe any other Tormek units have this magnet business thing in their water containers.

Mick.

[RETIRED]

The T7 Tormek unit has a rare Earth magnet inside a small external pocket and is attached under the high water mark. At the end of any sharpening session you will find virtually all metal pieces attached to the plastic inner wall.

Simply emptying the water container out, then using a rag to wipe away the metal filings is sufficient to clean them away.

The grey stuff in the bottom is the part of the wheel that has been ground away either by sharpening or truing up to square.

I don’t believe any other Tormek units have this magnet business thing in their water containers.

Mick.This is only on the new units.

[champs]

If left too long I have found the stone can soften on the saturated side which can then become eccentric due to differential wear - easily corrected but annoying. Good practice to just drop the bucket.

[Optimark]

, I have had my T7 for over 1½ years, so when did the new units come out?

I don't believe the other Tormek machines have this magnet, at least they didn't when I bought mine.

The T7 had a couple of different small things their other units didn't have when I purchased, the magnet is one of them.

Mick.

[Dean M]

Thanks for the replies. That will help me get on the right track. Cheers

[Sawdust Maker]

Interesting discussion, debate, argument, dialogue, altercation, discourse on why we buy stuff.
Thanks to those whom contributed

[rsser]

Thanks for the feedback Nick.

If you don't have a new unit and do a deal of HC steel work, you can drop a rare earth magnet into small ziplock bag in the bottom of the tray. This picks up the swarf. You could also glue such a magnet to the bottom outside of the tray and then wipe away the grindings when you clean.

Frankly, I can't see why this is anything other than a cosmetic issue re the stone providing you clean up the tray or regrade the stone regularly. My S. had a steel tray that had rusted a bit so I repainted it and cleaned it out after every session.

Bear in mind that the T. bearings need annual lubing. Not sure about the S.

(Just to keep the pot stirring ;-) the S. 2500 had some design features that at the time T. could have learned from; one they did pick up in time with a kind of kludge).

[KenW]

Hi Dez,
Sorry I'm so late replying to this thread I've been away.
As usual you are getting more bad advice than good on this thread,
The Tormek sharpening system is the best system available, if you can afford it buy it.
The Tormek doesn't need any annual servicing and will sharpen faster and more accurately than any other sharpening system. The people here that are bagging the Tormek often get me to sharpen their tools on my Tormek. Why? The systems that they use are inferior and they can't sharpen tools anyway.
If your tools are razor sharp you will quickly become a much better turner than the people telling you not to buy it.
As I said, if you can afford the best buy it.
If you have any trouble using your Tormek give me a call.

[Tim the Timber Turner]

Ken I would like to make a few comments on your post.

As usual you are getting more bad advice than good on this thread.

That's simply not correct; what it reflects is a wide range of people’s experiences of owning a Tormek. The fact that there are more negative that positive posts doesn’t mean that the Tormak or the advice given is bad. It just reflects people’s experiences.

The Tormek sharpening system is the best system available.

Not for everybody. After trying and discarding one, it wasn't the best system for me. There are a few others who have posted that have arrived at the same conclusion.

If your tools are razor sharp you will quickly become a much better turner than the people telling you not to buy it.

So following on from that logic, if I buy a red Ferrari I might become a Formula One driver whereas, those that tell me not to buy one don’t wont? I don’t think so.

Ken this is not a personal attack, I just think some of your statements needed a bit of balance.

A couple of my own observations to finish.

When working with new turners the hardest thing to impart is a method of maintaining a consistent tool angle and profile. Whatever system is used.

Every cut you do on a lathe starts with the grinder or Tormek or whatever is your method.

The sharpest my tools have ever been is when I did use the Tormek but I found the negatives outweighed the positives for the small improvement over a 120 grit white wheel.

Not much point in having a super sharp gouge when roughing out a burl of full dirt and silica.

I think Ern had it right: Fit for Purpose: should be the criteria for each person to decide.

Cheers
Tim

[rsser]

Well said Tim.

Re maintenance, p. 154 of the manual states:

The bearings are greased at the factory. We recommend that you re-grease them every year or so. Use any type of “ball bearing grease”. Remove the stone and pull out the main shaft with the honing wheel and apply grease on the shaft and in the bearings.

[WOODbTURNER]

Thumbs up to Tim.
Been to quite a few wt demos by the best overseas and local turners over the years. Most of them used dry grinders even though the T was available. The only ones using them seem to be the blokes flogging them.
It's like, "Gee I've got a Stubby or a Vicmarc so I must be a better turner than a Nova owner" I bought a Stubby 1000 after owning a Nova and no, it didn't make me a better turner just like my T7 didn't.
The reason I bought them is because I can afford them, not to make me a better turner.

[KenW]

Ken I would like to make a few comments on your post.

As usual you are getting more bad advice than good on this thread.

That's simply not correct; what it reflects is a wide range of people’s experiences of owning a Tormek. The fact that there are more negative that positive posts doesn’t mean that the Tormak or the advice given is bad. It just reflects people’s experiences.

The Tormek sharpening system is the best system available.

Not for everybody. After trying and discarding one, it wasn't the best system for me. There are a few others who have posted that have arrived at the same conclusion.

If your tools are razor sharp you will quickly become a much better turner than the people telling you not to buy it.

So following on from that logic, if I buy a red Ferrari I might become a Formula One driver whereas, those that tell me not to buy one don’t wont? I don’t think so.

Ken this is not a personal attack, I just think some of your statements needed a bit of balance.

A couple of my own observations to finish.

When working with new turners the hardest thing to impart is a method of maintaining a consistent tool angle and profile. Whatever system is used.

Every cut you do on a lathe starts with the grinder or Tormek or whatever is your method.

The sharpest my tools have ever been is when I did use the Tormek but I found the negatives outweighed the positives for the small improvement over a 120 grit white wheel.

Not much point in having a super sharp gouge when roughing out a burl of full dirt and silica.

I think Ern had it right: Fit for Purpose: should be the criteria for each person to decide.

Cheers
Tim
Tim, I would have been disappointed if you had agreed with me. You and I turn on oppisite ends of the spectrum.
I would be the first to agree that your work could be turned with tools sharpened on either a Tormek or spark grinder.
To make the weird pieces that I do, I need much sharper tools. I need to start sanding at much finer grits than most.
As you said your tools were never as sharp as when you used your Tormek. The fine edges on my small tools only burn when sharpened on a spark grinder. Only the Tormek gets them razor sharp.
I would also agree the Tormek struggles to sharpen realy large tools that are extremely blunt.
I always tell new turners to buy the best jig and grinder they can afford. If they want to buy a Tormek why talk them out of it. Its a decision they will never regret (IMHO).
I still believe the Tormek is the best sharpening system available. There are many top overses turners that agree with me and just as many that don't.
I didn't take your comments as a personal attack. I get very annoyed when people give bad advice and bag a great product. It's even more annoying if the advice comes from people who get me to sharpen their tools.
Most turners that can't get a good sharpening result from their Tormek are usually making a few simple mistakes. Learn to use the product before you bag it.
I'm always happy to help.

[KenW]

Well said Tim.

Re maintenance, p. 154 of the manual states:

The bearings are greased at the factory. We recommend that you re-grease them every year or so. Use any type of “ball bearing grease”. Remove the stone and pull out the main shaft with the honing wheel and apply grease on the shaft and in the bearings.
On page 118 of the origional instruction book that Torgny wrote it states: The lifetime of the bearings is some 1000 hours and normally they need no regreasing.


I run three Tormeks the oldest of which is twelve years. None of my machines have ever need the bearings greased. I use these machines almost every day.

[NeilS]

As usual you are getting more bad advice than good on this thread.

That's simply not correct



+1

As usual???

This reminds me of a lecturer who I had many years ago (like 45yrs ago :( ) who would say, "there is a right and a wrong way to do things, and then there is my way. Do it my way if you want to pass this subject". He and we were never confused that his way was necessarily the 'right way'. I would struggle to pass that subject now, however, that aphorism remained with me and served me well throughout my career. The opinions and preferences of an expert are to be highly valued, but not to be taken as 'the right' and only way to do things.

[jefferson]

Neil,

there are at least 3 "expert" turners/sharpeners on this forum that are against the Tormek system. The same 3 give lessons to all and sundry (though none claim to give Master-level tutoring. Interesting isn't it?)

It makes me wonder. We have at least 3 so-called experts telling their students that the Tormek system is not the way to go. Isn't that the point you were trying to make? Not listening 100% to "experts" all of the time?

I would have thought it appropriate for those offering PAID lessons to students give ALL of the alternatives, not just one or two.

From memory, all 3 "experts" had or have a Tormek but don't use it anymore. I'm still not convinced with the WHY.

One didn't take his Tormek to a demo. Reason for the over-sight unknown. Lost his Tormek grinds and didn't go back.

One bought a Sheppach, then a Tormek and got rid of both. Reasons for sales unclear when you put the student first. Still uses the Tormek jigs though.

The other one still owns a Tormek but doesn't use it. Why? Speed? Cost?

As far as I can tell, steel continues to cost more than stone. And I think it appropriate that so-called experts need to back their views with some solid reasoning - more so than the likes of me. Leaving your Tormek at home is not a good reason to my mind.

This thread has certainly caused some grief - I don't want anymore PMs from anyone with an anti-Tormek viewpoint. Anyone with the cash should not be discouraged from buying a Tormek or a Sheppach (and the jigs).

I refute remarks that buying a wet stone grinder won't make you a better turner. Your tools will be sharper and that takes one common problem out of the equation.

Fit for purpose?

My Tormek saves me $30 each time I resharpen my planer blades. No idea of the savings for sharpening knives etc but probably $5 a pop. And I don't waste steel when I sharpen anything. And my turning tools are band-aid sharp straight off the grinder.

Time or money poor? Trying to learn how to paddle with diamond sticks? Trying to learn how to sharpen free-hand on a spark grinder? Good luck and the best be with you. Just don't try to convince me and all the other novices out there that wet stone grinders are not the way to go.

I again offer the challenge to those that believe they can sharpen mini tools on a spark grinder. I'll pay the cost of the steel and the initial postage. The deal is simply enough - retractions mandatory on both sides.

[RETIRED]

The other one still owns a Tormek but doesn't use it. Why? Speed? Cost? Are you referring to me Jeff?

[Groggy]

Are you referring to me Jeff?If he is, and you have a Tormek not being used - can I have first dibs? :D

What a thread. :doh:

[jefferson]

Are you referring to me Jeff?

Negative.

You are the only bloke I know turning lamp posts, so you work out your own sharpening rules! :D

[Sturdee]

Just don't try to convince me and all the other novices out there that wet stone grinders are not the way to go.


Neither should novices be railroaded into believing that the Tormek is the only way to go. There are horses for courses and grinders for each purpose.

Incidently I have a Seppach wet grinder and I feel that the " T " costing at least $ 600 more did not give me any extra benefits, so I believe that owning the " T " is only snob value.

Maybe different for a professional turner that needs to keep the machine running all day and every day but for the novice turners that is not necessary.

Peter.

[dai sensei]

I had a Sheppack, then upgraded to a Tormek, for me there was a HUGE difference.

Is it the perfect answer for sharpening, short answer no, but it is a dam good tool that wirks well for me. After watching on his fancy new sharpening wheel thingy, can't remember the name, I am considering getting one but even so I would still hang onto the Tormek.

[Allan at Wallan]

I've given up watching the cricket and tennis just to follow
this thread.

More views than you would get from the Eiffel Tower.

Can't wait to see the final result where everyone agrees
to disagree, all hold hands, take a Bex and have a lie down.

Allan

[robo hippy]

Well, this has been entertaining. We all agree that if you don't have sharp tools, you have a lot of problems turning. The degree of sharpness can vary a lot depending on what you use to sharpen with. Of course, if you give the same tool to two different turners, sharpened the same way, the same wood, you can and will get different results. All of God's children are different, and some of us are more different than the others.

I was talking to Mike Mahoney about tool edges. He free hand sharpens, and I was asking him about how he liked the 80 grit D Way CBN wheels. He said he preferred the coarser one. His preference is for a more serrated edge for finish cuts as it works better for him. I believe he prefers a 60 grit ALO (aluminum oxide) wheel. Well, that set me to scratching my bald head trying to figure out that one. I can't argue with his experience, and he has turned way more than I have. I experimented with my gouges on the coarse wheel, and couldn't really tell a difference between the 80 and 180 grit cutting edges.

Of course, not long after that, a demonstrator commented about how he was at a Symposium turning and didn't have a grinder. He used some one else's and things were normal. A Tormek rep took his gouge and sharpened it, and he commented that the edge held a lot longer than the one from the sparky wheel. The Tormek theory is that the finer edge last longer because there are fewer teeth to wear off/down. Well, I had to ponder that.

I have an old Tormek, 10 plus years, and most of the time I don't use it. Mostly because it had the old grey wheel which was about as hard as balsa wood. I got one of the new black wheels (satisfying my curiosity can be expensive), and tried it out again. I do use a platform for free hand sharpening, so that is how I did one of my gouges on the Tormek. I couldn't really tell any difference in edge durability or that it cut any better or cleaner. I have a host of chisels, mostly Thompson, but several others in there as well, that curiosity thing again, and switch back and forth a lot. I also turn a lot of different woods. If I was to use the same chisel on the same wood for a month or so, and then switch, I might be sensitive enough to feel differences in how the tools perform. Also, my scrapers get used more than my gouges in bowl turning as I do all my roughing with the scrapers.

What does it all mean? Well, all methods work, and what works best is more due to our idiot- syncracies than to any 'real' measurable differences.

robo hippy

[rsser]

Written before RH posted; in reply to Jeff specifically ...

To judge the worth of a tool by who uses it is on par with judging the quality of a make of car by who drives it. Lots of bogans in Commodores out my way but that's not what puts me off Commodores.

Why not instead take a look at how high quality turnings have been produced over the years - the ones that won prizes, were acquired by galleries and museums and were curated for publications. How many were done by Tormek users or could only have been done by them?

It's the output that matters. You can get tools sharp enough without a wet wheel. At the point where someone is able to shape wood without having to sand it, then it's worth their while to refine the tool edge (ditto for finishing cuts). And if they're not honing the milling marks out of their gouge flutes they're p*ssing in the wind with or without a wetgrinder.

As for the proposition that students shouldn't be taught to sharpen without access to a Tormek, that's on par with saying they shouldn't be taught deep hollowing without having access to all of the hollowing rigs and tools on the market. Plain tosh.

PS I've had no trouble getting a good-enough edge on mini-tools with a fine Alox wheel. The diamond wheel will do better than serviceable.

[NeilS]

Neil,

Isn't that the point you were trying to make? Not listening 100% to "experts" all of the time?



Jeff - I think what I was trying to say was, "the opinions and preferences of an expert are to be highly valued, but not to be taken as 'the right' and only way to do things."


I try to listen carefully to everything that the experts have to say
I try to value all of their hard won knowledge and opinions
Invaluable when the experts agree
But experts can and do disagree
That doesn't make some right and others wrong.
They just have different experiences and personal preferences because there is not only one way to do things
Safety is another matter


I again offer the challenge to those that believe they can sharpen mini tools on a spark grinder. I'll pay the cost of the steel and the initial postage. The deal is simply enough - retractions mandatory on both sides.

What length is the flute on your smallest detail gouge?

[rsser]

Drop in anytime Jeff when you're in the big smoke.

Easier to show than to describe.

Then you too can make your own mind up.

[KenW]

The comments that I made seem to be getting further and further out of context.
People that know me well know I don't do "subtle", I will try a different tact.
I have never told a beginner that they must have a Tormek. I always tell them to buy some jigs and the best grinder they can afford. I do tell them in my opinion the Tormek is the best although dearest system.
I do suggest that they buy the Tormek jigs, as these have always been easy and safe to use, regardless of the type of grinder. (If they can afford them)
Since the introduction of the tool setter they are probably even easier to use. It takes me a very short time to teach a raw beginner how to sharpen their tools. Their tools quickly become sharp, with usable repeatable angles.
I feel that it is important for a beginner's tools to cut and react the same every time they present them to the wood. This makes them easier to teach and their confidence grows quickly.
I have proven this method works by setting up Tormek jigs on spark grinders at my local Northern Woodturners club.
I'm going to use Ern as an example here, for no other reason than he made it easy for me to access his website. (No offence intended Ern)
From where I'm standing "all" of the pieces on his site can be made with basic skills and a good set of well sharpened tools.
Having said that I am not putting the work down. There is nothing wrong with the work, it "all" looks well turned and finished. This work will probably sell much better than mine. It's just like the work I was making when I first started.
What I call "bad advice" is when somebody that makes basic pieces (normal) like Ern's, gives advice that limits a beginners possibilities. The advise is even worse if they couldn't get their Tormek to sharpen properly and didn't seek help.
Why tell a beginner that a Tormek is not a necessary item for them or even worse, that it won't do the job. If they can afford it let them by it. Owning a Tormek will only make their introduction to woodturning easier. It could possibly be the only grinder they ever need to buy.
I try to assume that the beginner asking for advice might be the next Hans Weisflogg of the turning world (Hans owns a Tormek). My advice is given based on that assumption.
I prefer to make pieces that fit in the gap between difficult and impossible. (Just the way my brain was wired). To do this everything matters, especially the tools and the sharpening.
There are a few people that try to make my pieces, they all found the process easier when they puchased a Tormek.
I have tried all sorts of grinders and nothing sharpens my tools as well as a Tormek. A lot of my tools are less than 1 mm wide, they are difficult enough to sharpen on a Tormek. Sharpening them on a spark grinder is down right dangerouse and they always burn.
I also agree that not everybody needs a Tormek and there are some sharpening jobs they simply won't do.
At the Turnarounds that I attend I spend most of my time showing how to sharpen tools. If the Tormek is considered such a bad investment, why do some of the so called experts get me to sharpen their tools on mine?
I hope this makes my opinion clearer.

[Sawdust Maker]

...
People that know me well know I don't do "subtle", I will try a different tact...

Didn't know you even knew how to spell subturtle :doh::q and as for tact :no: eh? :U

[rsser]

My missus is an agnostic. Sometimes when bad stuff happens to a good friend she goes into a cathedral and lights a candle.

Can't hurt. Does something for her. Doesn't make sense to me but it's not my business.

...

I show my beginning students how to shape and sharpen freehand (relatively) using a Chinese mitred platform and bench grinder, and then show them how to sharpen with jigs using the T BGM (in front of a #120 diamond wheel which produces a pretty good finish). The first is mostly where they're at with their budget and what they can do with that kit will take them a long way on their turning journey (much of which they will spend sanding out tool marks; as tool control improves, the bar can be raised).

If they get hooked on sharpening then we talk about simple and cheap methods of refining an edge, and of course we also talk about a wetgrinder/honer as the Tormek brand has the status in this game in the same way Gore-tex has in bushwalking. Assumptions abound about what those products can do. I share what my experience has been with wetgrinders; as said, my position, which I can demonstrate to them, is that there are cheaper ways of refining an edge, and for much of the work they and I do a refined edge lasts longer than one off a dry grinder but in the whole scheme of things this is not a deal-maker. Certainly not at $900 plus jigs.

So you think of my work in that way do you Ken? Your pupil Jeff is on the same jag of playing the man rather than the ball. This is a sorry point for this discussion to come to. Which of my pieces do you think could have been better with a touch of Tormek magic? Or more relevantly, what other skills in turning would have improved them? (Readers should be aware that all those pics are about five years old or older; the portfolio needs updating but that's a low priority ATM). Added: and what makes you conclude that because my work doesn't hit the stars that I'm incapable of evaluating devices for shaping and honing tool edges and my advice is bad?

Why do you think I discourage anyone from buying a wetgrinder if they've set their heart on it? If they've got the money and are keen, they can start the same voyage that many of us have embarked on. Some of us got off that cruise ship; others still think the value proposition stands up.

I've yet to hear however from any of you any evidence that wetgrinding is essential to preserving HSS and that the T. honing system can't be duplicated cheaply by manual or other means.

I have nothing invested in wetgrinding via T or Scheppach as a package. Been there, tried both; interesting experience. Would still like to have one for rehabbing flatwork tools but there are cheaper ways of doing that and other demands on my resources.

[Tim the Timber Turner]

SHARPNESS IS SUCH A BOURGEOIS CONCEPT
amateurs worry about equipment,
professionals worry about money,

This quote came from a Photography Forum.

I then googled Bourgeois Concept and came up with the following:

Generally it means the concept is one that makes the speaker seem self-important but at the same time materialistic, narrow-minded, and lacking true sophistication.

Not sure that applies here, but interesting anyway.

Cheers

Tim:)

[Farnk]

"From where I'm standing "all" of the pieces on his site can be made with basic skills and a good set of well sharpened tools.
Having said that I am not putting the work down. There is nothing wrong with the work, it "all" looks well turned and finished. This work will probably sell much better than mine. It's just like the work I was making when I first started."

Geez, condescending much???:oo:

Is this thread about whether the OP should buy a particular brand of gear, sourced from the US or not or is it just an exercise in I'm better than you - Na na ni nah nah!!!

Hey mods, do us a favour and close this thread down. It's not serving any constructive purpose. :doh:

[RETIRED]

I will be closing it tonight.

[Grumpy John]

We've come a long way from the original post, but no-one can say Dez won't be able to make an informed decision.

My 2 cents worth:

When I first started woodturning I was sharpening my tools freehand on a cheap ($79) 8" grinder fitted with grey wheels. After wasting countless millimeters of expensive HSS trying to obtain repeatability I invested in a white ALOX wheel a decent 8" grinder a "T" handled diamond dresser and the Woodcut Tru-Grind system. I will say at this point that I am a qualified fitter & turner and have no problems sharpening drill bits freehand, but woodturning chisels are another thing altogether. I doubt very much that a person new to woodturning would be able to obtain consistent results freehand sharpening.

196029 196023 196025 196026

I was very happy with that setup until I attended 's first sharpening day. This was when I was able to sharpen a few of my tools using a Tormek wet grinder and truly appreciate a fine edge on a tool and the difference it makes when turning.
Did the Tormek make me a better turner? NO.
Was the tool easier to use, did I get a better finish off the tool, was I sharpening less often, were the sharpening times less? YES.

Not being able to afford a Tormek I settled on a second hand Scheppach, but I use only Tormek jigs as they are, in my opinion, of a better design and quality.

196021 196020 196022

Since then I have purchased another Tormek jig holder and mounted it in front of my dry grinder. I now use the Tru-Grind jig to shape new tools or re-shape existing tools using a grey wheel. I then use the Tormek jigs on the dry grinder to do the initial sharpening and all final sharpening is done on the Scheppach.

196024

Is the Scheppach as good as the Tormek? I don't think it is as well made, it is certainly noiser and seems to lack the solid feel of the Tormek, but I'm very happy with the finish I'm getting on my tools.

Since I started using the Scheppach, has purchased an 8" CBN wheel (~$250) and fitted it to a standard bench grinder. Having seen the results off this wheel I would go with the CBN wheel using Tormek jigs and save the cost of a wet grinder. For a hobby turner I believe that this would be better value for money.

HTH Dez.

[brendan stemp]

What must DezBuilt be thinking. He started this thread (his first I think) with a simple question and look where it has taken us. He must be quite bewildered and even more confused. And I feel a little responsible for it all. My initial comments were an attempt to offer an alternative to the Tormek, a cheaper one that would free up finances to buy, what I think would be higher priority woodturning devices (ie chucks). I'm quite happy that it started a discussion about the pros and cons of the Tormek but disappointed it has sunk to personal barbs, intended or not, subtle or not. I bailed out of the discussion before I went on a short holiday about 10 days ago and was surprised to see it still going when I got back. Yep, I agree with Frank; it should be closed down because it will only get worse and could well create bigger divides. Sooner rather than later .

[rsser]

What hasn't been covered is what it is to live with a wetgrinder, its user friendliness, the matter of stone maintenance, and some of the design limitations.

Dez if you've got this far, I'll write on my blog about my experiences with these. Get there via the first or 2nd link in my signature line. I'll also post some ideas about how you can get a honed edge with low cost means.

[Groggy]

... its user friendliness... :rotfl: After this thread most of us are going back to scraping our chisels on the footpath!

[Shedhand]

Before this thread closes, my tuppence worth.

A few forumites will remember when I first joined and that I asked a lot of questions of other members about a lot of different things. After a while I put together a list of things that i'd like to have in my shed.
One of these things was some kind of setup for sharpening my chisels and plane blades.
I bought all kinds of things claimed to make sharpening easy. Most of them quickly found their way to the "not very good tools drawer". I went to the Hobart WW Show in 2006 and watched a Tormek demo. I was very impressed. I bought one on the spot (I was a bit more financially able at the time :wink:) . I didn't buy any special jigs because all I wanted it for was to sharpen chisels and plane blades. When I opened the box containing the grinding wheel it had a chip out of it where a fork lift had hit it. It was replaced free of charge immediately and I was able to keep the damaged wheel which was still useable.

Over the years since I bought it I have been able to achieve very sharp chisels and plane blades consistently in quick time without wearing my shoulders and arms out as I was doing hand sharpening stuff. I also have a very good grinder which I use only to profile really badly damaged chisels (the stanley crapola I use to chop through nails).

I've seen a few turners over the years who sharpen freehand and I have to say it seems a few have mastered,what to me, is an arcane art. My grandfather (an engineer and a woodworker) could do it freehand to near perfection. But equally I've seen freehanders who sharpen for 10 minutes, turn for 30 - then back to the grinder.

That begs the question.

Is a freehand edge better and longer lasting than a waterwheel with jig edge.
My arms are devoid of hair after testing the blades sharpened on the my Tormek. Can't achieve the same finish using a Grinding wheel and freehand honing.

I'm not a turner so I can't really say whether the Tormek is any better than any other system for sharpening profiled chisels but I can say that for longer lasting very sharp chisels and plane blades the Tormek (or quality equivalent) is a great addition to any woodworkers workshop. If you pay 300 or 400 bucks for a top-line plane or 700 bucks for a proper set of chisels why scrimp on a sharpening system. Buggered if I'd put my Japanese chisels to an ordinary grinding wheel.

My tuppence worth.

Not insulting anyone or any product...just saying it from a personal choice perspective.:wink:

Cheers
Sheddie (no longer in the Shed)

[Sawdust Maker]

Sheddie

but would the missus let you sharpen her best sewing scissors on it?
Mine won't :doh: