D-way vs Thompson gouge

[NeilS]

Prompted by Bellyup's thread CBN wheel - first impressions (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/cbn-wheel-first-impressions-141625/) I gave in and got myself one from D-waytools. Couldn't wait any longer for the A$ to reach my target exchange rate... :rolleyes:

I'll do a comparison between the Diamond and CBN wheels when I've spent a bit more time with the two.

As I had some spare capacity in the parcel I decided to add one of Dave's bowl gouges to the order. His gouges are made of high Cobalt M42 HSS. They are slightly more expensive than the Thompson gouges but one of his selling points is that his gouges come with the flutes hand polished to remove all grinding marks.

As claimed, the gouge arrived with a high polish. The highest polish of seen on any gouge as received.


195379 195380


I opted for the V fingernail profile. As can be seen from the following pic, Dave uses quite an acute nose bevel angle that approaches what I would normally use on a detail gouge. So, the chances are that you will need to regrind. The top gouge is my standard bowl gouge angle. The bottom is Dave's.


195381


To compare the 5/8" D-way with my 5/8" Thompson 10% Vanadium gouge, which are similar priced gouges, I used the same protocol that I used to compare the Thompson 10% and 15% Vanadium gouges reported here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/2011-thompson-lathe-tools-purchase-141209/index11.html#post1404333). Basically, as follows:



100 year old red gum fence posts. Hard and brittle with the usual quota of included dirt (sand).
Starting with a fresh grind on each gouge, turned in 1 minute relays between the two gouges. This way each steel encountered equal levels of hardness (and silica).
Kept a stop watch tally of 1 min cuts and turned until each gouge had to be pressed firmly to keep 'cutting', a point well beyond where I would normally go before resharpening. This way I had a distinct exhaustion point against which to measure the performance of each gouge.

The result, the Thompson V10 cut just over three times as long as the D-way.

This significant difference would be produced by the difference in the metallurgy and the heat treatments to optimise the performance of each steel.

The quality of the cut from each steel is a different aspect of a gouge's performance. For example, the steel in my Ellsworth Sig gouge produces a much cleaner cut than the Thompsons. I will look at that next, probably comparing the Ellsworth, D-way and Thompson, and report my impressions.

I'll also do a comparison with the Vicmarc vanadium gouges when they produce one in V flute profile.

[Jim Carroll]

Neil interesting comparo.

It will be good to do the same test once you reduce the lenght by about 6-8mm.

I tend to find some tools are not hardened right to the tip and generally after a few sharpens the tool behaves as you would expect and start getting a better life between sharpens.

[hughie]

.



It will be good to do the same test once you reduce the lenght by about 6-8mm.



I always find this interesting and curious as to why this should happen. As in normal heat treating you would hold the chisel by its tang during as it goes through the tempering bath etc.
I would find it remarkable if they held it by the other end. But it would explain the variance in hardness.

[RETIRED]

I have been saying the same thing for the last 30 odd years.

I asked a metallurgist I used to know about this and his reply (and his mate concurred) that in the hardening or tempering process the ends can sometimes cool quicker thereby not receiving the same treatment as the main body of the tool.
He said that the result can go one or two different ways depending on the steel: 1: A "softer" steel, i.e. not as hard as the rest therefore bluntens(?) quicker or 2: An extremely brittle edge which can crack. I have experienced this on an Ashley Isles spindle gouge many years ago when HSS was in its infancy for turning tools. It was a bloody good tool after the missing bit was gone.

[Tim the Timber Turner]

:I found P&N tools to be like this.

They needed 20 or so sharpenings before they would produce an edge that would hold up.

They defiantly got better after that.

Cheers

Tim:)

[dr4g0nfly]

It might also go a long way to explain why 2" of bowl gouge decided to detach itself from one of my 1/2" Henry Taylors but after a regrind became the best bowl gouge I possess.

Maybe I'll saw a bit off some of the others that are not preforming quite as well!

Interesting, thanks for the detail in this post.

[NeilS]

Thanks Jim, and Tim for the expert input on the tip tempering. An important caveat if that is the case.

Can't say I have experienced that effect myself, except maybe for P&N, but have definitely noticed marked differences between tools from the same manufacturers (not just McJing). Or, perhaps I'm starting to forget what my tools were like 8mm ago...:rolleyes:

Certainly won't take long to remove 8mm of tool with the new CBN wheel. It eats HSS...:oo:

[rsser]

Watching with interest. Thanks for the post Neil.

In terms of tip hardness, maybe some of the variation depends on whether the treatment process precedes or follows the flute milling and bevel shaping. And how much of the tip is removed in bevel shaping if it happens after that process.

Re wheels, as posted, the Norton #46 3X gobbles up the Thompson V10s. The diamond wheel from your group buy (#120) leaves a nice polish on the bevel but produces quite a wire edge.

In terms of flute shape and how friendly that is, the Thompson 5/8 U is OK for freehand touch ups at 45º but reground at about 70º for transition ease, it's hard to get an even curve even with a jig.

As an aside, I've been spending some more time on methods of taking out the milling marks on gouges.

The only gouges I've used that appear to have been polished at the factory were Sorby. The two Thompson detail gouges had distinct milling marks and involved some effort to fix. His bowl gouges were clearly better; odd.

My Ellsworth Sig gouge is pretty clean (made by Crown). Henry Taylor all need(ed) work. P&N is usually p*ss poor.

[ticklingmedusa]

A timely post for me, just got a 1/2 in. P&N from an online supplier here .
I wanted to compare it to the Thompson tools I use regularly .
It came with a lopsided asymmetrical bevel and needed regrinding .
I ground a Thompson first and immediately noticed the P&N metal
grinding away at a more rapid rate.
Was playing on some local unknown species of gum so the P&N dulled fast.
I put it away and went back to the stalwart Thompson .
I think now I'll regrind a few times and consider the other variables before judging the P&N.
Thanks to the above contributors.
:2tsup:

[NeilS]

The quality of the cut from each steel is a different aspect of a gouge's performance. For example, the steel in my Ellsworth Sig gouge produces a much cleaner cut than the Thompsons. I will look at that next, probably comparing the Ellsworth, D-way and Thompson, and report my impressions.







OK, done that now. Didn't want to wait until I'd sacrificed 8mm off the D-way...:rolleyes:

Put the Crown Ellsworth, D-way and Thompson head to head on a finishing cut.

Selected some red gum with the crankiest grain I could put my hands on. A good test for a finishing cut. Each tool was resharpened before each test.

First The D-way up against the Crown Ellsworth. I did alternating 1" bands.

195810

Here are close-ups of the finish cut on the side grain, D-way on the left and the Crown Ellsworth on the right.

195811 195812 195813

And on the endgrain.

195814 195815

I couldn't detect any difference in the quality of the finishing cut from these two gouges.

Then the D-way and the Thompson. Same procedure.

195816

D-way finish on the left and the Thompson on the right.

195817 195818

The D-way definitely produced more tear-out (on the left) than the Thompson (on the right).

Having added the Crown Ellsworth to the finishing test, I then decided to do a comparative endurance test on that as well.

Again a blank from an ancient red gum fencepost.... as hard as nails and abrasive as beach sand!

The Crown Ellsworth lasted 30% longer than the D-way. Not a significant difference. The Thompson over three times longer than the D-way, again.

However, the 5/8" Crown Ellsworth now costs about twice the D-way and the Thompson. I like to do my finishing cuts with the Ellsworth, it keeps its keen edge long enough for that purpose. But I don't think I would buy one again. It cost about the same as the Thompson and D-way back when I bough it, but now that the others are available at half its price it is no longer value for money.

Unless the D-way improves after it has lost some length (I'll report back if that happens), I would put the Thompson comfortably ahead of the D-way. Freshly sharpened the Thompson gives a very good finishing cut and then keeps cutting, but progressively less crisply, for longer than any other gouge I've used in the same price bracket.

The Glaser may do a better job but I haven't got my hands on one of those yet and I'm unlikely to do so at those prices, well not while there is so much HSS remaining in my tool rack...:B

PS - the flute profiles on these three gouges vary. The Ellsworth has the widest 'valley floor' at the bottom of the V, the Thompsons are narrower, and the D-way narrower yet again. Chip ejection varies accordingly and the wider V floor works well across the inside bottom on a finishing cut. So, personal flute profile preferences will be a factor in deciding on tool selection.

[Paul39]

Thank you Neil,

I have a just plain Crown 5/8 bowl gouge and a Thompson 5/8 bowl gouge I traded from another turner.

I also find the Thompson cuts longer and cleaner than the Crown. Seat of the pants impression.


Freshly sharpened the Thompson gives a very good finishing cut and then keeps cutting, but progressively less crisply, for longer than any other gouge I've used in the same price bracket.

Exactly what I found.

[robo hippy]

Hmm, I don't have the hard gum that you have, but I have played extensively with the Thompson gouges, and a bit with the D Way gouges. I do prefer a more open flute design to the V shape which is the D Way flute. I was not able to notice any cutting differences between the two. I have a friend who has done Myrtle wood trays to the tune of 700 or so a year for 20 years. He could not detect any significant difference.

That being said, I know there are differences in the individual pieces in each batch of tools being made. With a cutting edge performance difference of 3 to 1, it sounds like you may have gotten a bad tool. Do contact Dave about that.

robo hippy

[NeilS]

I was not able to notice any cutting differences between the two. I have a friend who has done Myrtle wood trays to the tune of 700 or so a year for 20 years. He could not detect any significant difference.

....

With a cutting edge performance difference of 3 to 1, it sounds like you may have gotten a bad tool. Do contact Dave about that.


Thanks for the input, RH

It could well be that I have one that got too much or too little of something. I had one of those from Doug Thompson, and he promptly sorted that out.

So, to be fair to Dave I should raise with him.

[NeilS]

It will be good to do the same test once you reduce the length by about 6-8mm.



OK, done that now.

Removed 8mm off the tip.

Repeated the above test run with the same wood.

The D-way improved slightly. This time the Thompson 10V outperformed it by only twice the cutting time.

I had expected the D-way to perform better than that based on a number of reliable sources.


Bill Neddow, who I always find is worth listening to, uses both Thompson (10V) and D-way (M42) says, "from my experience, you get a minimum of five times more 'sharp edge time' with the 10V and M42 compared to high speed steel -- maybe slightly more with the 10V". Slightly more, not twice to three times more.



Jimmy Clewes uses both D-way and Thompson (even has a line of Thompson sig gouges) says of the D-way, "these tools hold an edge longer than any other tool currently on the market."



And, Robo Hippy and his production turner colleague have also said that the D-ways hold up against the Thompsons.

So, why was I getting very different results?

As described above, my durability test were with roughing cuts to the point of exhaustion (ie. until the tool would no longer cut wood). That is not the way I or most others turn. But it was a way of getting an objective measure of durability, as distinct from a subjective measure of that point at which the edge had stopped cutting sweetly, which varies from turner to turner.

Maybe the results would be different if I could accurately measure Bill Neddow's 'sharp edge time', as distinct from 'still cutting, albeit roughly', which may be more measurable and applicable to roughing cuts, but a less useful measure of how long a tool will hold an keen edge that will take a sweet cut.

Is there a way of objectively measuring 'sharp edge time'?

See next post for an attempt at this and the surprising results.

[rsser]

Nice work Neil.

Following Leonard Lee, sharpness involves the keenness of the edge, the bevel shape, the application and the tool metal.

So that makes for a lot of variables.

Application involves the interaction of the wood specimen, the type of shaping of it and the bevel geometry of the tool. You've mentioned the the fact that the last is an issue in this test, the control of which is nigh impossible for end users including as it must the flute shape of gouges.

The other variable of course is that tools are made in runs and the steel composition and hardening treatment may vary within a brand according to metallurgists.

[NeilS]

In an attempt to measure 'sharp edge time' I extended the earlier finishing cut test using the following protocol:


Blank - highly seasoned (20yr+), cranky grain, blue gum
Alternated between gouges in 1min intervals
Fine finishing cuts only
Exhaustion point determined to have been reached when;

any tear-out observed, lathe stopped for inspection after each 1min interval, or
shavings no longer coming off as very fine long curlies




The results were; D-way M42 held a 'sharp edge', as defined above, for just over twice as long as the Thompson 10V.

The D-way felt sharper and cut sweeter on this test, but that is only subjective opinion.

I could re-run a head to head test of these two gouges on softer, less demanding woods, where I expect the difference between them on roughing cuts may be less and the D-way extend its lead on the 'sharp edge time' finishing cuts over the Thompson 10V, but that will have to wait until I have my next load of blackwood or silky oak to turn.

Conclusion*:

The Thompson 10V has more endurance on roughing cuts in harder more demanding woods. It will keep cutting, in a fashion long, after the D-way has given up and well beyond what most turners would tolerate. It will continue to be my go to gouge for roughing cuts. Less trips to the grinder means more turning time.

The D-way has more endurance on fine finishing cuts in harder more demanding woods. It produces a cleaner cut without tear-out for longer in these demanding woods. That may in part be attributable to its pre-polished flute which I think is worth every penny of the few extra dollars it cost over the Thompson. This will now become my go to gouge, along with the Crown Ellsworth sig, for finishing cuts. The flute profile on these two gouges vary so each may end up having its particular application when I get to know the D-way better.

The equation may change for softer woods.

Depending on what and how you turn, the specific strengths of D-way or Thompson gouges will appeal to you. Either way, you get a quality tool at competitive prices.

If I could only buy one gouge, which one would I buy? Both...this life is too short not to have both in the tool rack...:B

* ie. Conclusion for now; based on some demanding hard woods; using the tools I had purchased from these makers; the quality of these tools may vary, although I do know that these makers do have lab level QA sample testing done on their tools.

[robo hippy]

Roughing cuts to the point of exhaustion???? You are a glutton for punishment. Don't think I could do that, no matter how curious I am. Then again, I would think I could push a butter knife into just about any wood if I tried hard enough.

How do you sharpen, and what profile do you use? Jig? Free hand? Aluminum oxide wheel? CBN wheel? Grit?

I do know that Dave does suspend his tools in the oven/forge/heat thing when tempering, and he tumbles them with ceramic beads to polish them. The V shape on his gouges cuts differently than the more U on Dougs gouges, and I present them to the wood differently.

robo hippy

like robo cop, the old movie, used to twirl my hammer around my finger try to get it into my tool belt, while wearing a big knee brace. One guy on the crew said, "Hey, it's Robo Hippy!", and I kind of liked it. Not .

[NeilS]

[robo hippy wrote] Roughing cuts to the point of exhaustion???? You are a glutton for punishment. Don't think I could do that, no matter how curious I am.

BTW, that was to the point of edge, not turner, exhaustion. I was able to sit down and have a rest whenever I felt the need, but yes, a little mad none the less... :D

Then again, I would think I could push a butter knife into just about any wood if I tried hard enough.

True, but would it make shaving? When the curlies stopped coming off the gouge, I called that edge exhaustion and quit. As for pushing, I'm too buggered* nowadays to do anything else other than let the lathe do all the work...:rolleyes:

How do you sharpen, and what profile do you use?

Predominantly V flutes with Ellseworth-Irish swept back grind. When I got my first Thompson gouge I found the grind that Doug uses was so close to my preferred grind (his is slightly more acute) that after just a few touch-ups Doug's grind was merged into mine. For example, the top gouge in the pic below is a Thompson with just a little of Doug's grind left.

196727

Jig?

Yes, a custom made Tru-Grind style.

Free hand?

Yes, until jigs became readily available about 20 years ago.

Aluminum oxide wheel? CBN wheel? Grit?

I retouch on a #120 Woodriver diamond wheel. Recently purchased a #180 CBN from Dave. The #120 is a bit slower but puts a much finer grind on the edge than the #180 CBN. If the CBN is in fact #180 then the diamond #120 is in effect about #360.

I have a good selection of Alox wheels of various complexions in the cupboard.

I do know that Dave does suspend his tools in the oven/forge/heat thing when tempering, and he tumbles them with ceramic beads to polish them. The V shape on his gouges cuts differently than the more U on Dougs gouges, and I present them to the wood differently.

Interesting, thanks RH.

If Dave is tempering his tools by that method (if I understand it correctly) he is probably minimising or avoiding the tip mis-tempering raised earlier in this thread.

The tumble polishing adds another dimension. With softer metals it case hardens as well as polishes. I know that master Japanese blade sharpeners use a very hard finishing waterstone to burnish a more compact edge on their very hard steel blades which lab tests have shown improves edge durability. So maybe the tumble polish is value adding to flute performance beyond removing the milling marks and adding a polish.

RH - are you using Doug's U or V flute profile gouges?

robo hippy

like robo cop, the old movie, used to twirl my hammer around my finger try to get it into my tool belt, while wearing a big knee brace. One guy on the crew said, "Hey, it's Robo Hippy!", and I kind of liked it. Not .

Apologies to you tool twirler, corrected now... :B

------
*a term in common, almost polite, use here, so apologies if it offends elsewhere.

[robo hippy]

Neil,
Well, on the CBN wheels, I asked my myrtle wood turning buddy how he liked his shortly after he first got them. He told me the cutting edge did not last as long as the one he got from his standard wheels. Probably to being too coarse. I told him to wait a while. These wheels do 'break in'. When new, the 180 cuts like 100 to maybe 120 grit. I talked to him at our last meeting, and he says they are fine now. Now, that mine are broken in, they cut more like 180 grit (only comparison I have is with the matrix style CBN wheels I used for years, 150 grit, and mirror polish). I did talk to Cindy Drozda about her Woodcraft diamond matrix wheels, and she said they were always loading up and burning until she started her oil on a brush for the wheels, and they stopped doing that. There is a You Tube link about that.

I use Doug's V gouge for most of my finish cuts, and use the grind pretty much as it came. I do like a rounded nose as I cut with the tool held level, and the flutes rolled away from the cut, and get my shear angle from cutting with the nose. I do have some of his U gouges, and shaped one line the V gouge, and turned the other into a bottom of the bowl gouge (almost square across the top, with 70 degree bevel, and almost no sweep. I still have one swept back gouge, but seldom use it. I don't find the wings to have any advantage. I do rough and shear cut with my scrapers, which is what I would consider to be the advantages of the swept back grind if I used gouges for that. I don't really care for the V gouges like the Glaser or Dave's. With my level tool, they don't work as well, though if you drop the handle, they seem to work fine, but that isn't a cut that I use.

I have taken up platform grinding. Much more simple, and faster than any jig. I have found that the profile does not have to be perfect. None of mine were that way when I used a gouge jig. The nose was always more to one side than the other. Minor facets/flat spots on the gouge make no detectable difference in how the tool cuts that I can feel.

robo hippy

[rsser]

I've also reground my Thompson 5/8 U to a short bevel for transition cutting. Also about 70º. On the only run so far it made for exciting times with a long overhang. Pretty grabby.

[NeilS]

RH - thanks for your responses.

Yes, personal preferences on flute profile is one of the factors in choosing a gouge. No point in having a gouge which gives a long 'sharp edge time' if you don't like using it. I might take a pic of the flutes on the ones I've got in case it helps anyone thinking of any of those. I have started a separate thread, here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/v-flute-profiles-p-n-thompson-d-way-ellsworth-bowl-gouges-147465/#post1438654).

Some very experienced turners like yourself can successfully freehand sharpen on a platform. In hindsight, I would have preferred to have done things in the order you have; begin with jigs and then maybe progress to freehand. That way, by the time I got to freehanding, I would have acquired and refined my turning skills with gouge profiles that were repeatedly the same. Unfortunately jigs were not known (or known to me) back then, but now that I have them I don't think I will ever go back to freehanding. I find I can set the gouge in the jig while the grinder is cranking up to full speed and begin grinding at the same time I would freehand.

I expect you will find some different opinions on the forum about minor facets/flat spots on the gouge making no detectable difference in how the tool cuts. How the very experienced turner can cope with such variations compared to the novice is a factor.

I might also start a separate thread on the CBN wheel and replicate your comments on that there. If I do, I will put 'CBN' in the title.

[robo hippy]

Ern,
We have had different experiences with the U gouge grind. If the flutes are up, then I cut more in the bottom of the U, only barely going up the wing. If you go up on the wing, it acts like a SRG (spindle roughing gouge), becomes unbalanced, and wants to roll into the wood.

If I roll it over a bit, I am still on the U, but with the U more sideways, it gives a better shear cut. Not grabby at all for me. Again, I hold the gouge level, not with the handle dropped. It is a finish cut also, no roughing with that tool.

robo hippy

[rsser]

Yeah, that's probably the first run failure in application. Going in too hard and fast.

Will play some more with it and try to get the shearing thing happening. Used to more pointed tools with bevels at the point from 45 to 60 degrees, rising from the start of the hollowing, arcing over and then coming down to the centre.

[robo hippy]

I think it Dave Haut, or Hout, or some thing like that who makes a bowl skew, which is essentially the same thing. Like a skew, work with the bottom third of the tool. It is also extremely difficult to make an entry cut on the rim of the bowl with this tool. If I am making a rim to center cut with it, I will pull cut in a shear mode from just inside the rim to the lip, then a push cut from there on down. It works fine with a grinder burr, a honed burr, a burnished burr, or with the burr honed off. I usually just leave the burr from the grinder on.

robo hippy

[Paul39]

I think that early in the sharpening and turning process we rely on what angle to grind and what angle to put the tool to the rotating wood.

After a few hundred hours in front of the lathe one can go to a different grind, or a not perfect grind, and by instinctively moving the tool angle up, down, back and forth, roll the gouge over, have the long strings of shavings come off without thinking about the process.

Very much like learning to drive, ride a bicycle, or fly.

I did get quite surprised going from a blunt grind bowl gouge to a swept back grind. Once I figured out how to handle the aggressive cutting it is my favorite for the outside of bowls and shallow insides. I use it pointed well up and slice the wood off with the long wing. For the inside of deep bowls I like the blunter grind, rolled over, the way RH does.

I'm learning a lot from this discussion.

Thanks to all contributing.

[NeilS]

I'll also do a comparison with the Vicmarc vanadium gouges when they produce one in V flute profile.






Well that day never came (ie a VM gouge with a V flute profile), so I decided to try one of their 'parabolic' flute profiles models (discussion on that here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/flute-profile-gouge-217127#post2079282)).

I have now given the Vicmarc bowl gouge a reasonable endurance test up against the Thompson V10 V flute profile and the D-way (M42) V flute profile bowl gouges. I chose those two for a side-by-side test of endurance against the Vicmarc as they were two that I had tested previously (see above) and were an established benchmark.

My initial impression of the Vicmarc gouge on receiving it is that it did not retain its sharp edge very well. Some new gouges have a tip that has been inconsistently heat treated so that it is not until that has been ground back by about 10mm that it performs at its best. So, I ground that amount off the tip and re-profiled it before undertaking the comparison test to eliminate that as a possible issue.


433558 433559


The wood used for the test was some very old (cut about 50yrs ago), very dry (6.3%) and extremely hard River Redgum that was originally cut into slabs by sleeper cutters. It is the hardest wood I have. Normally I use carbide to do most of the work on this wood... it kills HSS.



433556


I used the same procedure as previously; I rotating through each gouge in timed and recorded 1mim intervals until a gouge would cut no further (ie remove any wood). This way each gouge gets an equal exposure to all conditions of the wood for the life of the edge.

The gouges were then resharpened and the procedure repeated. After 7 rounds the results were as follows:



<tbody>

VM


Thomp


D-Way




2


2


3




4


1


2




2


2


3




3


3.5


3




4


3.5


3.5




3


1


3




2.5


3.75


3


</tbody>


The durability of the Vicmarc held up well in comparison to the others.



Then I tackled something a bit easier going, some very old and seasoned Sheoak with usually has a Janka hardness of about 2,190 lbf (9,730 N).



<tbody>
VM
Thomp
D-Way


9
4
6.5

</tbody>

At this the Vicmarc did even better.

There is nothing to suggest from this comparative durability test that the Vicmarc bowl gouge will not hold its edge as well as its competitors. I expect the result would be similar up against Woodcut, Henry Taylor and Crown. But, as with any gouge, if it doesn't perform well to begin with you may need to remove some of the tip to get it to provide its best performance.

[Old Croc]

Wow Neil 6 years to resurrect a thread. I really like the detailed analysis you have carried out on these. I was going to ask why you had not included the pioneer of the PM tools, Gerry Glaser Hitec tools. I am still using one I bought off Gary Pye when he was in Lismore around 1988 and it is still my favorite tool for abrasive timbers. Well, I looked them up and they are 3 times the price of Thompson tools, so if and when I need to replace mine, I will give the Thompson a go.
Thanks again,
Rgds,
Crocy.

[NeilS]

I was going to ask why you had not included the pioneer of the PM tools, Gerry Glaser Hitec tools. I am still using one I bought off Gary Pye when he was in Lismore around 1988 and it is still my favorite tool for abrasive timbers. Well, I looked them up and they are 3 times the price of Thompson tools



Yes, Crocy, the Glaser may be good but at 3X (or at least twice) the price I don't expect that they would be 3X as good. The steel is the same as in Thompson 15V and the finish about the same as a D-Way. You can have one of each of those for the price of one Glaser!

I wish I had also bought some original Glasers from Gary back when you did. I visited the Lismore area regularly each year back then (my hometown is Alstonville) and could have easily done so. Their price has skyrocketed since HITEC took over the manufacturing of them.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

There is nothing to suggest from this comparative durability test that the Vicmarc bowl gouge will not hold its edge as well as its competitors. I expect the result would be similar up against Woodcut, Henry Taylor and Crown. But, as with any gouge, if it doesn't perform well to begin with you may need to remove some of the tip to get it to provide its best performance.

So... if I'm reading things correctly, in the bang-for-buck scale the unhandled Vicmarc is a worthy successor to the slot formerly held by P&Ns? Provided one puts the effort in to bring the 'unfinished' (<- my opinion) blank up to usable spec, of course. But that held true for P&Ns anyway.

[NeilS]

So... if I'm reading things correctly, in the bang-for-buck scale the unhandled Vicmarc is a worthy successor to the slot formerly held by P&Ns? Provided one puts the effort in to bring the 'unfinished' (<- my opinion) blank up to usable spec, of course. But that held true for P&Ns anyway.

Yes, Andy, provided the flute profile suits you and, as you say, you are prepared to put the effort in to making them useable, which we got used to with P&Ns. It may also be a case of the the luck of the draw as to how much effort is required. Sending back the outriders may also rectify some of that!

[hughie]

I have been saying the same thing for the last 30 odd years.

I asked a metallurgist I used to know about this and his reply (and his mate concurred) that in the hardening or tempering process the ends can sometimes cool quicker thereby not receiving the same treatment as the main body of the tool.
He said that the result can go one or two different ways depending on the steel: 1: A "softer" steel, i.e. not as hard as the rest therefore bluntens(?) quicker or 2: An extremely brittle edge which can crack. I have experienced this on an Ashley Isles spindle gouge many years ago when HSS was in its infancy for turning tools. It was a bloody good tool after the missing bit was gone.

Then its a process issue and by the sound of it geared to the dollar as opposed to quality.