PDA

View Full Version : My thoughts on grinders.Long Post.



RETIRED
24th January 2012, 11:39 PM
My general thoughts on sharpening turning tools sparked (pun intended) by the Tormek thread.

First off remember that any tool or machine that rotates has the ability to seriously injure or maim you. All operations on tools require the utmost attention at the operating area.

When people started using cutting tools they used shards of rock that already had an edge on them of sorts.

They further enhanced the edge by chipping with a harder rock.

Some of these were extremely sharp but a bit brittle.

Next came the Bronze age where metal was starting to be used for tools. Their sharpening methods consisted of a whetstone only. They were deemed so valuable in some cases that they were carried around the neck like a necklace.

Then we came to the Iron Age. The cutting edges on tools was sometimes hammered in by the maker of the tools or weapons. Whetstones were also used in the field or factory to maintain an edge.

Grinders started by being a round sandstone wheel powered by slave or treadle. It was not until about the mid to late 1800's that manufactured wheels came into being. I would say they were probably expensive in their day and only factories had them.

The bench grinder as we know it became affordable for most people just after the second world war.

Ever since then arguments about the right speed, what sort of wheels to use and to be wet or dry have ensued.

There has been some brilliant turning work done where I am sure that the tool was probably sharpened by a flat rock that was found in some paddock.

Now on with the main part of this post.

I am not going into the different properties of all the wheels available. I am trying to give you the options available to sharpen your tools and approx prices as at 2012.

The first thing to do with most grinders is take the useless rest off and throw it away. They are flimsy, vibratory pieces of junk and shouldn't have the name "rest".

There are stages of sharpening or should I say cost of sharpening and which you choose is governed by a number of factors. Your budget, the type of work you do and the type of tools you use. How often you turn also comes into it.

I am talking about power sharpening here. If you have a set of Carbon steel chisels and you turn the odd thing every once in a while, a good oil stone will suffice.

There is a difference in shaping a tool and sharpening it. Shaping occurs when you buy the tool to get it the way you want. Sharpening would sometimes be better called maintenance.

Once shaped it does not take long to sharpen it.

Stage 1: Cheapest option.

When someone starts turning they generally have a 6"-8" grinder at their disposal generally costing between $60 for a good cheap one to $400 for a good high quality one.

I personally don't think it makes much difference in the size of the wheel but 5" is a bit small and 4" definitely so.

These are generally fitted with grey wheels when you buy them. These wheels will sharpen mild steel or high carbon steel as in bench chisels, early carbon steel turning chisels and normal plane blades. Some of the higher priced ones come with Aluminium Oxide wheels fitted.

They will sharpen High Speed Steel (HSS) but tend to overheat the steel because the bonding in the wheel is not friable enough and they clog with detritus.

The answer to this is Aluminium Oxide (Al Ox)wheels. These can be pink, white, blue and ruby. It does not matter what the colour it is, it is still an Al Ox wheel.

They come in various grits from 36#-120# with the preference for most turners being 80#. That grit will shape a tool rapidly and will also sharpen to a reasonable edge. The cost of these wheels goes from approx $25 for a 6" - $90 for the 8".

So if you can freehand sharpen the setup will cost approx $90 for a cheap 6" grinder to $400 for a top of the line setup. Add $20 for a diamond stone dresser. I prefer the "T" shaped ones as a straight point makes it very easy to put grooves in the wheel.

That was the set-up I used for 30 years, 6" grinder (good quality) and a 80# wheel. I still use it occasionally for some things. I sharpen my big 2" "U" shaped spindle roughing gouges on it.

Now you will notice that I said freehand sharpening. A tip if you do try freehanding: Put the grinder at the same Centre height as your lathe. This enables you to hold the tool as you would when using the tool to turn and should make it easier.

If you can't freehand sharpen (there are a lot) it is not the end of the world. Most sharpening can be accomplished with a simple platform and a steady hand.

There are numerous plans on the net for these that you can make yourself or you can buy one for about $30-$50.

Of course you do not need a grinder as such. I have seen some ingenious ideas that just use a motor. After all the wheel only has to spin but if you go this way make sure you do not exceed the rated speed of the wheel.

Now we get on to stage 2: Jigs.

The biggest problem for a beginner is that in most cases (there are exceptions) tools don't come sharpened, let alone with the correct angles.

Another problem for a beginner is that if an angle is altered they can't adjust their turning to compensate for it. I will use a quote here from Oneway lathes:


* Professional turners have a lot more experience at the grinder, so are more qualified to sharpen tools.

* Professional turners have more experience at the lathe, so they are better equipped to handle tools which behave differently. If they don't get exactly the same shape on their

tool after they grind it, they can easily compensate, while the hobbyist may have more troubles from their tools if they don't behave in a predictable fashion.This is what jigs enable you to do. To get a sharpened edge with consistent angles so that you don't have to re-learn how to use the tool every time you put it near a wheel.

As with all new toys there is a learning curve but reading the instructions, watching someone demonstrate it and practice make it easy.

Jigs readily available in Australia are the Tru-grind and Tormek. The Tru-Grinds cost is approx $179 and it does represent good value for money.

The Tormek BGM100 and the associated Woodturners Kit. You can buy the jigs separately but if you are contemplating getting a Tormek later, get the kit. The BGM 100's cost is approx $125. The woodturners kit is $375, The separate jigs range from $40 -$180. The jigs are expensive but they are very well made.

I don't agree with the angles that they suggest in the set up of these jigs but this is a personal thing. I hand shape and sharpen a new tool first and then set the jig to that, not the other way round i.e. set the jig and then shape the tool.

When setting up these grinders to use with jigs I find the best height is just below or at waist height. The reason for this is that you need to be able to hold the jig on the wheel as well as in its locating pin.

Do not hold the handle as instinct tells you to lift it and you dislodge the jig with sometimes disastrous results.

In summary for $110 (grinder, wheel and dresser)+ $180 (Tru-Grind)= $300, you have a good set up that will sharpen your tools with consistently good results.

Or you can go to this. A good 8" grinder ($250), fitted with an 80# and 180# CBN wheels ($500), a Tru Grind ($180) and a Bgm 100 ($125) with the Tormek accs ($375) Total $1055, and you can sharpen just about anything. This is one of my set ups.

This is my main grinding set up for production work and big poles. I do not need tools sharpened to th nth degree as they last a nano second longer than if they were honed to 4000#

I only hone my skews for a final cut in soft timbers.

Or any where in between.

Stage 3: Top of the wozzer or wet grinders. I have demonstrated the Tormek for Jim Carroll on quite a few occassions but have no financial interest in Tormek nor received any payments or concessions from them.

There are a few slow speed wet grinders on the market in Australia: Jet, Scheppach and Tormek.

The Jet retails for approx $630, the Scheppach for approx $180-$290. Be warned that there are 2 models. Do a search on the Forums for further information.

The Tormek has 2 models: the T3 and the T7. The T4 retails at about $670 and the T7 for about $995. The Tormek is expensive but in most cases is probably the only grinder you need for most sharpening jobs.

The differences in these models are as follows.

The T3 has a 40% duty rated motor, the case is plastic, the wheel is 8" in diameter and only 40mm wide. Most jigs in the Tormek range fit. It pays to ask the dealer.

The T7 has a 100% duty cycle rated motor, the case is steel, the wheel is 10" in diameter and 50mm wide. All jigs fit this machine.

Fortunately the Tormek jigs are interchangeable with the Scheppach.

I have not used the Jet and only used a Scheppach once so all comments will be confined to the Tormek.

What a Tormek will not do. Unless you are a masochist it WILL NOT shape tools quickly. It will not turn you into a great turner. Only practise does that.

What it does do. It probably puts the best edge on that can be got from a powered grinder. It does it consistently and once over the learning curve it does it easily and reasonably quickly. 45 seconds was my best effort.

It is safe with no sparks and as has been stated, if you slip it will give you a slight graze.

The jigs are the best made on the market except in a few cases and it can be used for more than just turning tools. I find the skew jig hard to get the tool centred so I shimmed mine.

I have found the best height for grinding on the Tormek is waist height and working about a quarter the way round. You tend to be in the way sharpening tools with long handles.

If you have the room make sure you can get at the back or at least be able to easily turn the machine around.

I have one and use it for when I do fine work. I don't always work on big stuff.

In summary. It all boils down to what you can afford. Most setups will give you a good edge. Some better than others.:D

Pagie
24th January 2012, 11:56 PM
Thanks .

Cliff Rogers
25th January 2012, 12:28 AM
......
In summary. It all boils down to what you can afford. Most setups will give you a good edge. Some better than others.:D
And some are faster than others too. :p

Paul39
25th January 2012, 04:35 AM
Thanks ,

I was thinking of the long Tormek / spark grinder sharpening thread yesterday as I was making a mushroom from a piece of Locust (full of silica - abrasive) with a piece of barbed wire imbedded.

I used my down, dirty, and ugly scraper for this, a rusty, pitted, discarded rotary lawn mower blade with a scraper on one end and accursed skew on the other.

I have an 8 inch grinder one foot from the tail end of my lathe, so it was sharpen 3 seconds, scrape 15 seconds, repeat.

Once we had the shape I cleaned it up with the Thompson bowl gouge, avoiding the barbed wire, and sanded.

rsser
25th January 2012, 11:41 AM
That's a good wrap .

We now also have seeded gel wheels (Norton SG and 3X), which are a variety of AlOx, and the one I use is superior to the various plain AlOx jobs I've gone through. In terms of faster and cooler grinding and slower clogging.

As for cleaning and truing, the T-dresser smooths a coarse grade wheel out. The point dresser doesn't so much, nor does the carborundum stick used aggressively. The point dresser is not so hard to use with a platform that has a mitre gauge (like the ubiquitous Chinese alloy platform and at a guess the Sabre). Needs light passes with the tip trailing.

Smaller wheels like 6" have a wrinkle in the case of thin tools and acute angles - such as a skew. The actual bevel angle behind the cutting edge will be several degrees less than the nominal set up on the platform or jig because of the extent of concavity left by the wheel. So the edge is weaker.

Paul, way to go, and yes, horses for courses. Had a similar experience: I did a 10" bowl out of silica rich timber (Brush Box decking from a pier). The tool had to be touched up after each hollowing pass towards the end. A matter of a few seconds on the platform in front of a dry grinder.

I have two versions of my go-to gouge; one that can be done on the platform quickly and a second with swept back wings that needs a jig. One's quick; the other's more versatile in application.

NeilS
25th January 2012, 03:49 PM
Good one ...:2tsup:

Sawdust Maker
25th January 2012, 07:41 PM
thanks :2tsup:

smiife
25th January 2012, 08:03 PM
hi guys,
thanks for your thoughts ,it is interesting to get a professional
idea on what is available,i think my biggest problem since i started
woodturning is sharpening the tools,i can never seem to get the same
grind twice,it has improved slightly lately as i got a grinder for xmas
with a belt sander on one side and a wheel grinder on the other,
the belt seems to better for skews than the wheel,still it is not
pretty,has anyone tried the robert sorby pro edge?,i believe they are not availble here as yet?but would like to know if some one from overseas
has any thoughts on them?might be worth while importing one from
the uk?,,thanks again for your thoughts will watch this post
with interest:2tsup:

Jim Carroll
25th January 2012, 08:42 PM
hi guys,
thanks for your thoughts ,it is interesting to get a professional
idea on what is available,i think my biggest problem since i started
woodturning is sharpening the tools,i can never seem to get the same
grind twice,it has improved slightly lately as i got a grinder for xmas
with a belt sander on one side and a wheel grinder on the other,
the belt seems to better for skews than the wheel,still it is not
pretty,has anyone tried the robert sorby pro edge?,i believe they are not availble here as yet?but would like to know if some one from overseas
has any thoughts on them?might be worth while importing one from
the uk?,,thanks again for your thoughts will watch this post
with interest:2tsup:

From what I have heard so far in Europe they are getting a very good response.
There is a lot of coverts going from their traditional grinders and tormeks to this.

As one guy indicated there is no mess from water on the tormek and there is less residue from a spark grinder.

Still on the fence with this at the moment till I can get one and give it a good run.
They have now got more jigs for all types of grinds. As well as a variety of types of belts for different applications.

Sturdee
25th January 2012, 09:03 PM
might be worth while importing one from
the uk?,,

I talked to Len from the Woodsmith about that a few years ago.

He has one, uses it and likes it but he said that the cost of getting the necessary permits and electrical compliance certificates to sell them here would cost him approx $ 20 K hence not worth his while.

You could import direct but not sell them here.


Peter.

artme
26th January 2012, 09:57 AM
Great and VERY useful post !!





They further enhanced the edge by chipping with a harder rock.

I've seen lotsof tools that must have been sharpened this way!:D:p

NeilS
27th January 2012, 12:07 PM
I talked to Len from the Woodsmith about that a few years ago.

He has one, uses it and likes it but he said that the cost of getting the necessary permits and electrical compliance certificates to sell them here would cost him approx $ 20 K hence not worth his while.

You could import direct but not sell them here.


Peter.

Or, if you are so inclined, you could make your own. Derek Cohen has adapted standard belt sanders to sharpen his flatwork blades. A variation on his design might work to take the various woodturning jigs.

Bench Sander Blade Grinder Mk I (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderGrinderMkI.html)
Bench Sander Blade Grinder Mk II (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderBladeGrinderMK%20II.html)

rsser
27th January 2012, 12:28 PM
Lee Valley now retail a bare vertical 1" belt grinder (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=44884&cat=1,43072) (fit your own motor) as well as some high quality abrasive belts for it.

Either these belts or others they stock fit the Ryobi belt/disc sander from Bunnings; I've played with one of these; the quality isn't brilliant and the belt platform basic. A 'tuit' job is to fit a Veritas platform instead.

rsser
31st January 2012, 08:26 PM
FWIW, I started with a low-tech wet grinder (pic of similar below) cos along with a Taiwanese lathe there was a boxed set of high carbon steel tools. Sorby Kangoroo brand! I knew diddly about turning and sharpening but a how-to book by an authority said that tools had to be sharp and HCS tools shouldn't be done on a std bench grinder.

I rigged up a platform for the wet wheel out of a stand designed to mount a powered hand drill (to make a cheap drill press).

Spent my first two months in spare moments shaping, trying and reshaping a big forged spindle gouge. Each reshaping took for ever .... attending to facets, dubbed over edge, edge that didn't have a nice arc etc.

We've come a long way since then, with good platforms, jigs, wheels and tool metals; thank heavens. But a hard 'apprenticeship' sure does attune you to the virtues of simple and fast methods.

By way of postscript, this unit still serves as a rust remover with a deburring wheel in place of the dry grind wheel. (And Metabo have a very similar design on the market :o )

Paul39
1st February 2012, 04:31 AM
A 1725 RPM 8 inch grinder came with my first "good" lathe. I have a bunch of carbon steel tools acquired along the way, and misc. mystery steel tools pulled out of a junk pile, along with re-purposed files.

I have Crown and Thompson 5/8 inch bowl gouges, but sometimes one of the above work better for what I am doing. I will often start with a scraper made from a 30 inch rotary lawn mower blade to get the bark and dirt off and find the rocks in stumps and roots.

I have 120 grit wheels on both sides of the grinder with platform on one side and V pocket for gouge grinding jigs on the other. I seldom brown an edge, even with the smaller tools. One has to learn light pressure and a quick swipe.

I can see why Cindy Drozda and Ken Wraight use a Tormek as they use such tiny tools and it is much easier to overheat them. Also the crisp tiny edges preclude much if any sanding, so having an ultra sharp tool is needed.

For 90% of my turnings a 5/8 inch bowl gouge is a small tool.

I am curious to know if Tormek sharpened tools have any advantage over a swept back grind on a bowl gouge using my set up on partially rotten, punkey, spalted, soft wood.

I take the turning close to the finished size then liberally apply sanding sealer, or CA, or epoxy; let dry a couple of days then carefully finish cut with a freshly sharpened bowl gouge, sometimes a bit of scraping, then sand.

rsser
1st February 2012, 10:34 AM
Diamond and CBN wheels run cooler than AlOx and so are fine for mini-tools. My #120 WR diamond leaves a pretty good polish on the bevel too, but at 30º bevels on HSS also leaves something of a burr.

Re punky wood, light cuts and keen edges certainly help, and you can get a finer edge on your tool by honing with Fine and Superfine diamond paddles. Superfine is rated at #1200. To go finer than that you need wet slipstones and/or wet benchstones. Or rig up a power honing disc with Chromium Oxide compound. With a gouge the flute needs to be honed as well: I've found that to get milling marks out I need to start with a coarse diamond rod or #180 AlOx rod and go down the grits, ending up with 15 or 5 micron abrasive film wrapped around dowel.

NeilS
5th February 2012, 11:05 AM
Or, if you are so inclined, you could make your own. Derek Cohen has adapted standard belt sanders to sharpen his flatwork blades. A variation on his design might work to take the various woodturning jigs.

Bench Sander Blade Grinder Mk I (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderGrinderMkI.html)
Bench Sander Blade Grinder Mk II (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderBladeGrinderMK%20II.html)

Another source of info on using belt sanders for grinding turning tools, here (http://www.bigtreetools.com/articles/sharpening2.html).

Paul39
11th February 2012, 01:14 PM
A used like new 10 inch Tormek was in my local hardware store last week, not yet priced.

I was 3rd on the list to be called.

I was called today and had a look. $300 for the bare machine and with the new in box bowl gouge, skew, planer blade, jigs, leather honing wheel, diamond wheel surfacer, books, etc. $493.00 + 7% tax.

A very nice system. The bowl gouge jig is really slick.

A really good deal. I thought long and hard but just couldn't justify the expense.

I have the vari-grind jig and the fixed Oneway bowl gouge jig, for hard woods that works fine. I do some spalted punky wood at times and a smoother surface on the gouge would help.

I have a horizontal wet grind system that I can put a pivot point on for the vari-grind jig and get that extra bit of smooth.

Still having mixed feelings.

Paul39
12th February 2012, 03:57 AM
After rereading 's first post a couple of times and agonizing overnight about not asking if I could buy just the bowl gouge jig, I went back to the hardware store. To my surprise the Tormek was still there.

The other two interested buyers had been in, one offered $475, the other had passed.

They would only sell the whole lot together. I plugged it in, listened to it run, and bought it.

I had remorse for not buying it, now I'm pleased. It is still a lot of money, but I had crazy money available from a house rehab I did late last year.

I will post more when I get the Tormek finish on my Thompson bowl gouge and turn some spalted, rotten, punky wood.

Paul39
15th February 2012, 12:41 PM
When I brought it home it was blowing and snowing. The shop is on the north side of an unheated basement. Maybe above freezing, maybe not.

Put the Tormek on the kitchen counter - no SWIMBO, cat doesn't care, fired it up and added water, about 2 gallons methinks.:D

I put the Thompson bowl gouge in the very nice bowl gouge jig and adjusted it so the swept back grind was very close to what I had. It took quite a while to take out the marks from the 120 grit dry grinder, 10 minutes??

Back to firing wood stove and boiler as it was expected to be -12C. that night with 20 mph wind.

Next evening put the small leather honing wheel on, charged it with honing paste, and honed the inside of the gouge. When wiping the paste off with a paper towel sliced my thumb open. Hmmmm REALLY sharp. Cleaned up the blood, wrapped up the thumb, stoked the fires and went to bed. Only -11C that night.

Next evening, as I had noticed some slight machining marks in the V of the gouge I wrapped some 120 grit sandpaper around folded over corrugated cardboard and honed them out, then finished with 220 grit in the same manner.

Today it warmed up to about 8C so I put a piece of spalted, partially rotted, white birch on the lathe that I had roughed with the Thompson sharpened on the 120 grit dry wheel, using the Vari-grind jig. The hard part was smooth, but the soft parts had deep tear out. I used the exact same technique, handle well down, slicing the wood with the wing.

The Tormek sharpened gouge had almost no tear out, only at the softest, punky, part did it minimally tear.

So my supposition that the smoother sharper gouge would work better than the dry grind is correct. I think the best thing about the Tormek is the system of jigs and fixtures.

If one does a lot of cabinet work and needs to sharpen plane irons and wood chisels, this is a marvelous machine.

I have yet to sharpen my big fat finish scraper and see how much improved finish I get with the smoother edge and honing. The Tormek book says not to hone the burr off scrapers as the burr does the cutting.

I have been leaving the burr on until the last shaving cut before sanding. I sharpen lightly and hone with 400 grit sand paper on a flat board, and take VERY light cut.

I did free hand sharpen a paring knife and all the blades on my pocket knife. The Tormek did almost as well as freehand on an oil stone.

I found the warranty card in one of the books last night, the machine was bought in 1996. It looks brand new, and the only jig that was used was the square edge tool rest. All the rest were in the original boxes.

The dealer said that the guys shop was pristine, you could eat off the floor.

I added up the current price of the machine and all the bits and books.

I paid 42% of the going price. Even so, it is still a lot of money.

My conclusion is that one should buy a decent 1725 / 1400 rpm 8 inch dry grinder. After a few years of turning practice, and the disire to turn soft, spalted, burl, crazy grained timber; then buy a Tormek, or diamond wheel, etc.

I sure like the Tormek bowl gouge jig.

To the one person who has read this far, I hope I have added some knowledge.

RETIRED
15th February 2012, 01:53 PM
My conclusion is that one should buy a decent 1725 / 1400 rpm 8 inch dry grinder. After a few years of turning practice, and the disire to turn soft, spalted, burl, crazy grained timber; then buy a Tormek, or diamond wheel, etc.

I sure like the Tormek bowl gouge jig.

To the one person who has read this far, I hope I have added some knowledge. Ditto.:D Shoulda warned you about running your thumb down the flute.:-

rsser
15th February 2012, 02:33 PM
Sounds like a nice alternative to being out there in the freezing conditions Paul.

Thanks for your post.

Just one comment: you can cut your finger on an edge that's nonetheless not a good edge for turning. Think of the 'edge' on a handsaw.

mick59wests
15th February 2012, 09:20 PM
fantastic post! I would love to get to one of 's workshops but being in Sydney this is not so easy. How come so many of the best things are in Melbourne?????:D:D
Mick

PS: I have a Sheppach 2500 grinder but with the Tormek woodturning kit and am contemplating the Tormek grinder

tea lady
15th February 2012, 11:27 PM
Ditto.:D Shoulda warned you about running your thumb down the flute.:-Didn't you get the bandaids that come with it usually? :hmm: :D