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View Full Version : New Sorby TiN ... con or clincher?



rsser
8th February 2012, 11:32 AM
Big claims made:

Excelsior - the Gold Standard from Robert Sorby - The Woodworkers Institute (http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=2291)

Given that the bevel will be bare HSS and given that most turners use a bench grinder that throws up a burr, I'm sceptical about those claims.

Anyone given them a try?

Plaudits for Sorby for innovating and the brand means the claims need to be taken seriously.

artme
8th February 2012, 11:54 AM
Given that TiN coated drill bits have been around for years and have proven their worth I would think these tools are really worth investigating.

Trouble is my present impecunious state of affairs prevents any investigation by me.

NCArcher
8th February 2012, 12:30 PM
...... impecunious ......
Nice word Art.
I seem to remember a thread about TiN coatings a while back. I think one of our metalurgist members explained that the main function of the TiN is to prevent heat build up. Cooler running = better edge retention or something along those lines.
Of course I may have dreamt the whole thing :roll:

hughie
8th February 2012, 05:37 PM
As has beens stated Ern this and various other coatings have been around for atleast 20-25 years that I know of.

Do they work? yes, with one proviso, once ground its lost. I suspect due to the different angles, personal styles etc with the wood turner. Many of use will have ground off the gold coat long before 12 months have passed.

I has used them in various other applications over they years with good success. These applications that did not require much if any sharpening, with several million actions being completed before a touch was required. Once touched up, the duration of use was greatly shortened between touch ups.

The other side to it is that if you only grind the front angle of the tool, you should produce a good edge with the coating intact on top. Dunno how it would go with forming a burr.

If they polish the flute on the gouge prior to coating it. This would be an advantage I think as it would provide a very durable finish to the flute.

At the end of the day I suspect that theres more hype to it, than the advantage of having it. Happy to be contradicted by some serious testing. But I for one wont be forking out any $$ any time soon for one.

brendan stemp
8th February 2012, 05:56 PM
Don't bother. Unless they are doing something different to the one I bought about 6 years ago, they do not deliver what you might expect after reading their hyperbole.

rsser
8th February 2012, 05:58 PM
Well this is their 2nd shot at TiN coating of turning tools. I had a bowl gouge from the first. After sharpening on a std bench grinder wheel, given that the bevel was bare and a burr was produced, I couldn't see how coating would provide any practical advantage. Cutting with the burr means the edge is a mix of stuff; hone away the burr and you've got two faces of bare HSS :?

Yeah Hughie, there's some TiN coated twist drills in the kit and they clearly last longer on steel before dulling than plain HSS.

dr4g0nfly
8th February 2012, 07:24 PM
We've just finished a trial at work using TiN for a couple of items that suffer a high degree of wear. It does a far better job than bare metal but once perferated offers nothing above the untreated original (actually accelerated the wear acting as an abrasive).

I have looked at these tools but never tried them for the reasons noted above - however next time I manage to convince myself I need a new gouge I'll be looking at the Henry Taylor Kryo range.

vk4
8th February 2012, 07:24 PM
Coating a cutting tool with TiN , or cobalt , will enhance it's cutting ability, BUT as soon as you take the tool to resharpen the edge , any advantage it possessed, is moot.

Once the coating is breached , the tool is no more effective than a standard HSS tool, and the edge not last any longer than HSS , as the coating is now only on the burr side of the edge.

Jeff

rsser
9th February 2012, 01:07 PM
Thanks for the informed judgements folks.

mimpi
10th February 2012, 12:11 PM
I saw they mentioned their "new" technology is putting down a thicker coating of TiN. I expect that this is still only in the order of 5 micron thick. If they go much thicker with that type of technology the TiN layer begins to flake apart.
I am confident that their product is as good as they say it is. However I fail to see any reference to how you should maintain the coating.

These coatings are never intended to be ground back or sharpened. They will never go blunt, TiN is really that hard. The only things that can happen is the coating may get damaged which will mean its no longer any better than the HSS blade underneath, or they may get dirty.
The question is how do you keep the blade clean and shiney. This I dont know. Can a leather strop assist with this I dont know.

The coating also means you can not customise your blade angles / profiles you are stuck with off the shelf products.

Jim Carroll
10th February 2012, 01:45 PM
I got in touch with Robert Sorby regarding these new tools or should I say old tools with a new finish.
I am the first to admit that I am alway sceptical on this type of finish wheter it is on tools or drill bits, as others have indicated once you grind the finish of the bevel you are back to hss and if the burr is present then you clean up the flute which negates the finish as well.

This is their reply

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<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif][if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="2050"/> </xml><![endif][if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> [I]In answer to the question regarding the removal of the coating when to the tool is sharpened.
Even when the tool is reground and the gold TiN coated edge is removed from the face as shown, it still cuts “as new” because the coating remains on the top face.


On gouges and scrapers it is the top face that does all the cutting , the front face is a relief angle allowing the top face to enter the surface of the material being turned .


This coating is much thicker than the coatings that have preceded it, the coating is also plasma bonded to the base steel making peeling a thing of the past.
This technology is widely used in engineering with outstanding results.

Tim the Timber Turner
10th February 2012, 03:50 PM
Jim

I think you should send one to each of us and we could evaluate the performance and report back.

Hands up who wants one.:2tsup:

Cheers

Tim:)

Pat
10th February 2012, 09:27 PM
Good idea Tim, I'll test some on some fun burls I have :U

NeilS
11th February 2012, 12:10 PM
Jim

I think you should send one to each of us and we could evaluate the performance and report back.

Hands up who wants one.:2tsup:

Cheers

Tim:)

:wavetowel2:...but that would then break my rule of paying for whatever I review, that is unless I can return it after I've played with it...:C

jimbur
11th February 2012, 12:38 PM
Makes me think of the Longfellow poem with the youth carrying a, "Banner with a strange device, Excelsior". Hope it's not prophetic as the youth didn't last long, carking it in the snow.:D
cheers,
Jim

vk4
11th February 2012, 07:14 PM
many years ago I worked for a company , manufacturing CARBON BRUSHES for electric motors, one of the process steps was to drill the holes for the copper braid .

We used standard HSS drills and had to resharpen every 6-8 Brushes, the foreman brought in several drill bits with a GOLD coating which believe was TiN , we trialled these and found that we could get an extra 4 holes before the edges went west and we needed to resharpen, then they were no better than HSS.

These cost twice what HSS bits cost at the time but in the long run were no better.

Jeff