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Oldneweng
26th Jun 2012, 11:48 AM
I have been reading posts on this til my eyes hurt. I am still confused.

I am simply looking into the possibilities and costs at this stage so I know what to expect if a 3 phase machine becomes available in the future.

Eg. My lathe had a 3hp 3 phase motor when I got it. I replaced the motor with a single phase 2hp motor. It needs care with the clutch to start on the 2 top speeds.

To use this as an example how would I go about converting the power supply to suit the original motor.

I have seen a number of posts saying that a lot of people on the forum are using Huanyang VFD's. These are available cheaply from EBay. When I googled "Huanyang VFD" almost the whole page was about this forum. When I did a search on "huanyang vfd" and "huanyang" on EBay I found zero results.

When searching for "VSD" I only found 240v out put up to a price I felt was outside my ability to pay.

Can anyone give me a link to a suitable unit which is priced as a number of posts have suggested. One said around $160.00. This was based on a 2.2kw unit.

Can anyone make a comment regarding the ability of a 2.2kw unit to drive a 3hp 3 phase motor on workshop machinery and what sort of power requirements would be needed to run a suitable unit. My shed only has a single circuit with (I guess) standard 16amp 2.5mm cable. It is a dedicated circuit.

Dean

Big Shed
26th Jun 2012, 11:59 AM
Dean, this is the supplier that "most" people here on the forum have purchased their VFD from, as you can see he supplies several power ratings

love-happyshopping | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/Electrical-/92074/i.html?_catref=1&_fln=1&_ipg=&_ssn=love-happyshopping&_trksid=p3911.c0.m282)

This is the 2.2kw model

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3HP-2-2KW-PROFESSIONAL-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-10A-220-250V-VFD-p5-/370570033578?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item5647b1f9aa

.RC.
26th Jun 2012, 12:07 PM
Phase converters do not change the voltage... the 240V in units output 240V as well, not 415V...

Some motors are easily converted to run on 240V three phase... Others are not....

Stustoys
26th Jun 2012, 12:17 PM
Hi Dean,
240V input is not a problem for most motors in the 3hp range. Many just need a simple change of wiring on a terminal block, others may need some internal rewiring, others still may require a rewind.

So really the first thing you need to know is what sort of motor you are dealing with.

Failing being able to easily change the motor for 240V input, another option is to run a 415V motor on 240V and make do with 50-60%hp.

Then there is the costly path of 240V input 415V output(I have one of them). I'd really only suggest that as your last option before a motor rewind.

This is the guy I bought my four from(because he was the cheapest at the time, he may not be atm)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/300533234560?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%3A80%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3984.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D300533234560%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

Worked out at $125 each delivered.

There are other ways to go about it, e.g. a 240v to 415V transformer into a 415V VSD, but again I wouldnt do any of those unless I didnt have a choice.

Stuart

jackaroo
26th Jun 2012, 01:06 PM
I just converted mine with Huanyang 1.5kw recently, Thanks to RayG

Original Star configuration with 415V
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-NvUN5yfInzQ/T-RecZU-8HI/AAAAAAAAEOs/jpEFw-1rrDA/s800/DSC08101.jpg

I changed to delta 240V
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hgSCQStMrI8/T-RectW7uVI/AAAAAAAAEO0/a61ygbd7eRE/s800/DSC08102.jpg

I bought this band to extend the control panel
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mT6spCGWpuk/T-Red1AjoUI/AAAAAAAAEPA/m4hYYBhtEoY/s800/DSC08106.jpg

and the terminal
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NdGMisCaluU/T-ReeZfJeqI/AAAAAAAAEPI/mU7JZr7quNU/s800/DSC08107.jpg

here its

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0BSN8hsxR20/T-RegajwNaI/AAAAAAAAEPk/BFuVCwbE9vE/s800/DSC08119.jpg


http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/jackaroo75/lathe/DSC08116.jpg


here is the main unit
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/jackaroo75/lathe/DSC08124.jpg

simonl
26th Jun 2012, 03:44 PM
Hi Dean,
240V input is not a problem for most motors in the 3hp range. Many just need a simple change of wiring on a terminal block, others may need some internal rewiring, others still may require a rewind.

So really the first thing you need to know is what sort of motor you are dealing with.

Failing being able to easily change the motor for 240V input, another option is to run a 415V motor on 240V and make do with 50-60%hp.

Then there is the costly path of 240V input 415V output(I have one of them). I'd really only suggest that as your last option before a motor rewind.

This is the guy I bought my four from(because he was the cheapest at the time, he may not be atm)

VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVE INVERTER VFD NEW 3HP 2.2KW 10A | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/300533234560?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%3A80%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3984.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D300533234560%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1)

Worked out at $125 each delivered.

There are other ways to go about it, e.g. a 240v to 415V transformer into a 415V VSD, but again I wouldnt do any of those unless I didnt have a choice.

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

I need a quick lesson on 3 phase. I always thought that 3 phase was still only 240 volts relative to ground and that the 415 volts was achieved across any 2 phases due to the phase angle?

Which leads to my next question. whats the difference between 240V 3 ph and 415V 3 ph?

Cheers,

Simon

Stustoys
26th Jun 2012, 04:23 PM
Hi jackaroo,
Where did you get the cable and plug and what are they called?
Thanks

Hi Simon,
Rapidly heading out of my depth.

I always thought that 3 phase was still only 240 volts relative to ground and that the 415 volts was achieved across any 2 phases due to the phase angle?

Our 3 phase is(or at least most of it?), other counties aren't.



Which leads to my next question. whats the difference between 240V 3 ph and 415V 3 ph?

The voltage? :D
I'm not really sure what you are asking here. "why are some motors dual voltage?" maybe?

Stuart

simonl
26th Jun 2012, 04:49 PM
OK. I'm assuming there is a difference between 240V 3 ph and 415V 3 ph.

In order for me to get my head around it (humour me here) can you help me conduct a theoretical experiment? If we had 240V 3ph outlet and we measured the voltage difference between 2 phases what would/should we see? Now we measure the voltage difference between one of the phases and ground, what would we see?

Now, lets do the same measurements for 415V 3 ph. What would we see?

Cheers,

Simon

GuzziJohn
26th Jun 2012, 05:24 PM
OK. I'm assuming there is a difference between 240V 3 ph and 415V 3 ph.

In order for me to get my head around it (humour me here) can you help me conduct a theoretical experiment? If we had 240V 3ph outlet and we measured the voltage difference between 2 phases what would/should we see? Now we measure the voltage difference between one of the phases and ground, what would we see?

Now, lets do the same measurements for 415V 3 ph. What would we see?

Cheers,

Simon

With a 240v 3 phase system voltage phase to phase is 240v
If it was configured as a 4 wire system (ie with neutral) ,voltage from phase to N would be 240/Sqrt3 or about 138V

For 415v 3 Phase, phase to phase voltage is 415. Phase to neutral or ground is 240V

jackaroo
26th Jun 2012, 05:35 PM
Hi Stuart, I bought them from Altronics,
the band/ribbon
Altronics - Your One Stop Audio Visual & Electronics Supplier (http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=W2510)

the connector is this one but they got the wrong picture.
Altronics - Your One Stop Audio Visual & Electronics Supplier (http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=P5310)

Trong

Stustoys
26th Jun 2012, 07:29 PM
Hi Trong,
You wouldnt happen to know which pot these use for speed control?
I'm guessing this one
Altronics - Your One Stop Audio Visual & Electronics Supplier (http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=R1946)
Though maybe the shorter one would do?

Stuart

Big Shed
26th Jun 2012, 07:36 PM
Stuart, RayG did a thread about the external front panel and the pot, from memory it was a special pot that he got from os

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/huanyang-vfd-front-panel-pot-147356/

tanii51
26th Jun 2012, 07:55 PM
this is how iv been told they work very simplistic but ( i have 2 one huanyang and a seimenS
they use devices called igfets which are high speed high current switching devices
basically they switch the 240 volts to each leg of motor winding ( 3 windings )
the speed is adjusted by how fast the 240 v is applied to each winding
standard is 50 hz in australia so if its applied slower say 20 hz the motor will go slower if its raised to 75 hz it will go faster all controlled by a simple potentiometer.
Motor can be reversed by simple switch making the pulses of 240v applied to the windings in reverse
vfds are capable of many other things such is how fast the motor speeds up to full speed and also slowing down to stop all adjustable to the parameters you want
extra outputs to power relays and controls also
just a few things they can do
my 1400 rpm motor is set to go from 100rpm to 2200rpm and braking to stop in 2 seconds
with forward and reverse
The hardest thing i found was setting all the parameters as there are virtually hundreds of different combinations they have in built current overload protection which you can set at whatever you like up to the maximum the vfd is rated at
some of the more exotic vfds can even compensate for the motor slowing down under load ( called vector invertors)
please feel free to correct me on any miss information as im only a self learner
JOHN

AUSSIE TD-40
26th Jun 2012, 08:04 PM
can you put a stop/forward/reverse switch between a VSD and the motor, say like a drill press so you can tap with it?


Thanks
Jake.

Stustoys
26th Jun 2012, 08:21 PM
can you put a stop/forward/reverse switch between a VSD and the motor, say like a drill press so you can tap with it?

Hi Jake,
No
But you could do the forward/stop/reverse with the VSD.

Hi Big Shed,
Thanks. I remembered the post but didnt think I had a chance of finding it(tI thought it was in another thread, not that we do that sort of thing around here ;) ). It confirms(I'm pretty sure) that I've picked the correct ones, I need something to pad the order up to $20 altronics min)

Stuart

malb
26th Jun 2012, 08:28 PM
can you put a stop/forward/reverse switch between a VSD and the motor, say like a drill press so you can tap with it?


Thanks
Jake.

No, the VFD must connect to the motor directly. Any attempt to break the current flow while the motor is spinning will destroy the output devices in the drive.

You can fit a forward stop reverse switch to the low voltage control inputs of the drive unit, but you won't get instantaneous response because the VFD ramps the variations moderately slowly and the motor/mechanical drive will have inertia to overcome.

Oldneweng
26th Jun 2012, 08:30 PM
Phase converters do not change the voltage... the 240V in units output 240V as well, not 415V...

Some motors are easily converted to run on 240V three phase... Others are not....

I have found that out in my reading but all the discussion seems to be about running 3 phase when that supply is not available. That is what I am looking into. I will have to check the plate on the motor if I find one available to see if a phase converter is suitable.

Big Shed. As above.

Stuart. My lathe finds it a bit of a struggle to acheive full speed in top 2 gears. I have to slip the clutch. This is with a drop from 3hp 3 phase to 2hp single phase. Given the reduction in efficiency in single phase motors this may be in the same range as you mention.

Most of my info came from Drives Direct - Digital Phase Converters - How To Choose (http://www.drivesdirect.co.uk/how_to_choose.htm).

So after all the posts I have read about using a VFD / VSD etc to use 3 phase when only single phase is available, this method is very expensive and only a second last choice?

What is the difference between VFD and VSD then?

My best bet then is to see if the motor can be wired in a delta config and then run with a VSD with 240v output or buy a 3hp single phase motor. If buying a single phase motor I may also have to buy another switch which cost $200 for my lathe. Single phase switches tend to be of smaller capacity due to the higher voltage and 3 phases. This is one possible advantage of using a VSD. It seems the current price is about $145 for a 2.2kw unit. It also seems that this is suitable for a 2.2kw motor as one of the units I looked at had both a 2.2kw rating and was classed as suitable for a 2.2kw motor. This is one thing that concerned me with induction motors.

I have the possibility of another lathe lined up. Much better than mine. I am waiting on a decision. Two other people have expressed interest but have done nothing. It is about the same size but longer between centres. About 1000mm from end of tailstock tube to chuck jaws. I have seen a picture of one the same (except this one also had a DRO) and is listed as 1000mm centres. I believe that it is far far more accurate due to wear.

Of course I could always use the motor and switch from my lathe. Depends on a number of things.

Dean

Acco
26th Jun 2012, 08:35 PM
Sounds like you guys could answer a question for me as well.

I bought this 3-phase-240v-415-0.75kw-motor with the intention of mounting it on my mini woodlathe and will need to acquire an inverter for it and from looking at all the links you guys have posted and more searching on eBay, this raises my question.

Plenty of 1.5 and 2.2Kw inverters out there to buy but it seems 0.75kw are rare, so the question is, will a 1.5kw inverter run a 0.75kw motor without any problems?

Oldneweng
26th Jun 2012, 08:37 PM
Hi Jake,
No
But you could do the forward/stop/reverse with the VSD.

Hi Big Shed,
Thanks. I remembered the post but didnt think I had a chance of finding it(tI thought it was in another thread, not that we do that sort of thing around here ;) ). It confirms(I'm pretty sure) that I've picked the correct ones, I need something to pad the order up to $20 altronics min)

Stuart

You could double it up and send a set to me just in case.

Dean

Stustoys
26th Jun 2012, 08:45 PM
Hi Dean,

Stuart. My lathe finds it a bit of a struggle to acheive full speed in top 2 gears. I have to slip the clutch. This is with a drop from 3hp 3 phase to 2hp single phase. Given the reduction in efficiency in single phase motors this may be in the same range as you mention.
You mean getting up to speed? Shouldnt be a problem for a VSD.




Most of my info came from Drives Direct - Digital Phase Converters - How To Choose (http://www.drivesdirect.co.uk/how_to_choose.htm).

So after all the posts I have read about using a VFD / VSD etc to use 3 phase when only single phase is available, this method is very expensive and only a second last choice?
No No, 240V input- 240V output VSD/VFD is fine. Its the 240V input-415V output that is the " very expensive and only a second last choice"



What is the difference between VFD and VSD then?

Same thing, different name




My best bet then is to see if the motor can be wired in a delta config and then run with a VSD with 240v output or buy a 3hp single phase motor. If buying a single phase motor I may also have to buy another switch which cost $200 for my lathe. Single phase switches tend to be of smaller capacity due to the higher voltage and 3 phases. This is one possible advantage of using a VSD. It seems the current price is about $145 for a 2.2kw unit. It also seems that this is suitable for a 2.2kw motor as one of the units I looked at had both a 2.2kw rating and was classed as suitable for a 2.2kw motor. This is one thing that concerned me with induction motors.

It needs to be a dual voltage motor(which it most likely will be), but you have to have a look at the plate.
I would stay away from the 3hp single phase motor, the start up current may give you problems?? It would likely cost more and you dont get all the pluses of having VSD.

Stuart

jackaroo
26th Jun 2012, 08:48 PM
Hi Jake,
No
But you could do the forward/stop/reverse with the VSD.

Hi Big Shed,
Thanks. I remembered the post but didnt think I had a chance of finding it(tI thought it was in another thread, not that we do that sort of thing around here ;) ). It confirms(I'm pretty sure) that I've picked the correct ones, I need something to pad the order up to $20 altronics min)

Stuart

Hi Stuart, where about are you in Melb? I probably can pick up for you if you order under $20, I might go there again tomorrow again.

Stustoys
26th Jun 2012, 08:51 PM
Plenty of 1.5 and 2.2Kw inverters out there to buy but it seems 0.75kw are rare, so the question is, will a 1.5kw inverter run a 0.75kw motor without any problems?
Other than possibly costing slightly more money, no problems. All my drives are 2.2kW.(you should of course set the parameters to suit the motor you are running though). I figured the money I would save by having some 2.2kw, some 1.5kW etc wouldnt be worth it as you can bet the day I need the big VSD is the day it blows up and I'd only have the small one.

Stuart

Acco
26th Jun 2012, 08:56 PM
Cool, so bigger kw inverter is ok but I would imagine not vice versa, such as 2.2kw motor coupled to a 1.5kw inverter?

Stustoys
26th Jun 2012, 09:05 PM
Hi Stuart, where about are you in Melb? I probably can pick up for you if you order under $20, I might go there again tomorrow again.
Hi Trong ,
Thanks for the offer, but :doh: for some reason I thought they were only in Perth, I can duck down there myself.


Cool, so bigger kw inverter is ok but I would imagine not vice versa, such as 2.2kw motor coupled to a 1.5kw inverter?
I might get stoned for this but. No thats fine also, the VSD should be able to look after itself, of course you'll only get 1.5kW from your 2.2kW motor.(long term, they will allow *I think* 150% output for about a minute??)

Stuart

Oldneweng
26th Jun 2012, 09:07 PM
When I say
I believe that it is far far more accurate due to wear. I mean it has less wear. Just thought I would clarify that.

I am almost looking forward to having a VSD to play with seeing all the options I could have. I say almost as we have lots and lots of VSD's at work and they are great when they work but are a real PITA when they don't.

Issues with them. I have set up a big job and are just about to start when some twit tastes off another job with water straight into the front of the VSD at high volumn. They dont like swimming.

When they first started using them they had older style RCD switches installed which were not very compatable with VSD's. They tended to trip as soon as power was switched on. Had to call up the sparky and wait. Probably 3 other pumps also connected to the same circuit.

They have advantages. Wine hammer is closely related to water hammer and just as loud. Thru 3inch stainless lines it can be very loud. Slow ramp up by using VSD's has made this a thing of the past for the many presses which were the worst culprits. Also saves wear and tear on piping. Some pumps can run at up to 75hz. I did not know that this was just a setting until a repair to our centrifuge pump caused the pump to only do 50 hz. Called the sparky and he pushed a couple of buttons and back to 75hz.

Dean

Acco
26th Jun 2012, 09:08 PM
Thanks Stu, you've been a big help :2tsup:

Will place an order for a 1.5kw inverter soon

Oldneweng
26th Jun 2012, 09:16 PM
You mean getting up to speed? Shouldnt be a problem for a VSD.

One of the benefits.


No No, 240V input- 240V output VSD/VFD is fine. Its the 240V input-415V output that is the " very expensive and only a second last choice"

That is what is meant.


Same thing, different name

Was wondering.


It needs to be a dual voltage motor(which it most likely will be), but you have to have a look at the plate.
I would stay away from the 3hp single phase motor, the start up current may give you problems?? It would likely cost more and you dont get all the pluses of having VSD.

Yes, the plate. Not always easy. Will try but have no idea at this stage what it is like to get at etc. If I get it will be no problem.

I don't think it is likely to cost more! I know it will cost more! All those plusses are looking better all the time.

Dean

Ueee
26th Jun 2012, 09:21 PM
It needs to be a dual voltage motor(which it most likely will be), but you have to have a look at the plate.
I would stay away from the 3hp single phase motor, the start up current may give you problems?? It would likely cost more and you dont get all the pluses of having VSD.

Stuart

Hi,
I have a 3hp 2880rpm single phase motor on my dust extractor. even though our house has a 60amp 3 phase feed it makes all the lights dim on startup......The 5hp shaper motor and 4hp table saw/spindle moulder 3 phase motors don't dim a thing.

BobL
26th Jun 2012, 09:54 PM
Hi,
I have a 3hp 2880rpm single phase motor on my dust extractor. even though our house has a 60amp 3 phase feed it makes all the lights dim on startup......The 5hp shaper motor and 4hp table saw/spindle moulder 3 phase motors don't dim a thing.

My Shed has two power feeds (and two dist boards) - a 20A single phase and a 45A 3 phase. On startup the 3HP single phase DC will trip the 20A single phase breaker but it won't trip the 20A breaker on one of the Phases from the 3 Phase?

Oldneweng
27th Jun 2012, 05:50 PM
Ok. Now I have a bit more info but I still have not received or gone looking for an answer to whether it is mine or not.

I maybe know why the lathe has not been snapped up already. I don't know how long it has been sitting where it is waiting for a buyer but it has started to go rusty on the bed and ther places so If I get it I want it to be soon. It is under cover but exposed to the north side so condensation is getting to it.

A plate on the rear of the lathe says the drive motor should be 7.5hp 3 phase. I don't know if the motor is original or not and I cannot see the motor plate enough to read it. I would have to move the lathe and remove a cover (4 screws) to clean the plate up to read it. I would suggest that nobody is willing to take on a lathe that big without 3 phase power until I came along.

It is a bit bigger than mine in swing over bed (220mm) and in gap (about 300). It has about 52mm spindle hole. Face plate is 400mm while mine is 340mm. Other than that the chucks are the same size. My lathe has 750rpm max, this one 2000rpm. I am guessing that is the main reason for the extra power.

I still think it is possible to run it off a VSD based on what I have read here recently provided I don't expect to use it to its full capacity and I set the max current on the VSD. I think it would do at least as much as my current lathe.

This lathe has a taper attachment on it with micrometer adjustment.

Suggestions please as I want to ask about it tommorrow. SWMBO has said just get it and we will sort the power out afterwards. As we are on a SWER system the only other options are moving or a generator.

Dean

Oldneweng
27th Jun 2012, 06:01 PM
This vfd is rated at 3kw 13 amps. VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVE INVERTER VFD 3KW 4HP 13A NEW | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-3KW-4HP-13A-NEW-/290520222870?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item43a45acc96)

Does this mean that it requires 13 amps to run it and I can plug it into a 15 amp socket? If this is the case then all I need to do is run a dedicated cable from the shed power entrance to a 15 amp socket near the lathe and not run a big heater etc at the same time. The shed has a dedicated circuit and RCD from the main board.

Dean

jhovel
27th Jun 2012, 06:20 PM
Dean,
whatever you decide, here are a couple of fundamentals to help.
A 10hp (7.5kW) motor uses about 7500Watt when it ACTUALLY ptoduces 10hp - and significantly less when it isn't.
Since a 15A powerpoint is likely fused on a 20, 25 or 32A circuit - and cabled with a wiresize to suit that current, as long as the total load on that circuit breaker diesn't go above that, everything is OK and safe. That means you can tun a VFD and motor up to 240Vx20A=4800W=4.8kW, 240Vx32A=7680W=7.68kW or whatever - as a peak actual power used by your tooling on your jobs.
Now, I can't even imagine the chip size a motor producing 10hp in a single point tool in a hobby workshop..... maybe 3/8"x1/8" in mild steel? at a rough guess....
Go and have a look at the circuit breaker you intend to connect the lathe motor to and go from there.
Some of these figures ignore the losses int he motor. So you actually have to look at the current (in Amps) the motor draws to develop the hp advertised.
I run a 5hp single phase motor on my firewood saw bench plugged into a 15A socket. It will draw 30A when I cut 10" dry hardwood logs and have significantly slowed it down by pushing a bit hard. My 32A circuit breaker has never tripped yet and none of the cables or the powerpoint have ever got warm. When not cutting, the mototr draws about 3A. 3-phase motors are much more efficient. My 1.5kW lathe motor draws around 0.6A from the VFD when I'm not actually cutting anything.
Cheers,
Joe

Oldneweng
27th Jun 2012, 06:27 PM
It is a 16 amp circuit breaker. The only difference between 15 amp points and 10 amp points is the size of the earth pin. This is only meant to ensure that you use a proper 15 amp plug / cable to connect to it. The actual wiring behind the points is no different. They may need to be dedicated tho. I will need to check this out.

Dean

Oldneweng
27th Jun 2012, 06:31 PM
I presume you have bigger than standard wire connecting this 15 amp socket then. The circuit breaker is designed to protect the fixed wiring and the buildings around them so you should have at least 32 amp wire connecting it.

Dean

jhovel
27th Jun 2012, 06:39 PM
Sean,
a 16A cuircuit is a standard GPO circuit for 10 powerpoints. You can have (from memory) 10 off 10A powerpoints on a 16A circuit (I may be wrong and it could be more). A circuit for 15A powerpoints, will start at 20A and go to 32A depending on the number of powerpoints connected to it, and will have 4mm2 up to 6mm2 cable behind it. A 16A circuit only has 2.5mm2 cable. It is entirely pointless to bother with 15A powerpoints or plugs on that circuit. Just use the quoted 3kW VFD with a 10A cable and plug and run a motor rated up to 13A at 240V on it - likely to be around 3hp - or a 4hp motor that will trip the VFD maximum setting of 13A. That leaves you enough power on that circuit to run the lathe light, and that sort of thing.
Cheers,
Joe

Stustoys
27th Jun 2012, 07:41 PM
Ok when I said you could use a smaller VSD on a bigger motor I wasnt thinking of a 5.6kW motor. Now you might have another problem which is the motor maybe 415V delta. I'm going to have to have a think about that... better yet get Ray to have a think about it :wink: lol

With a 5.36kW 415V motor running on 240V would only be a 3.3kW motor anyway.... I think.

I thought 15amp powerpoints were each meant to have their own breaker?

Stuart

Oldneweng
27th Jun 2012, 07:53 PM
Ok when I said you could use a smaller VSD on a bigger motor I wasnt thinking of a 5.6kW motor. Now you might have another problem which is the motor maybe 415V delta. I'm going to have to have a think about that... better yet get Ray to have a think about it :wink: lol

With a 5.36kW 415V motor running on 240V would only be a 3.3kW motor anyway.... I think.

I thought 15amp powerpoints were each meant to have their own breaker?

Stuart

I am no expert and my info is mostly based on SA specs. Long term I hope to upgrade the wiring to the shed. I also read on one of the VSD threads that at about 5hp 3 phase motors tend to be wired in delta anyway so this rules out these motors and bigger for running on 240v 3 phase. This means finding a motor that will suit.

Dean

Stustoys
27th Jun 2012, 07:58 PM
Hi Dean,
I think I've confused you. No problem with running a 415V delta wired motor on a 240V VSD, just you wont get full power.

Stuart

Oldneweng
27th Jun 2012, 09:22 PM
Hi Dean,
I think I've confused you. No problem with running a 415V delta wired motor on a 240V VSD, just you wont get full power.

Stuart

I t wasn't what you wrote that was the problem entirely. It was more what I had read earlier. So if the motor is already wired in delta then it needs 415v for full power but when run on 240v it produces less power. I was reading thru past threads when I saw this info. I read it to mean that it was not possible, at the time and you said "I think" in your post. Anyway a 3.3kw motor would be enough for me I think. Hopefully run this on a 3.0kw VSD set at max of 13 amps and it all should work. Up to a point.

Dean

Stustoys
27th Jun 2012, 10:00 PM
Hi Dean,
Sorry Dean the "I think" was about my maths in the hp reduction(even if the maths is correct the answer likely wont be as I assume the motor will become either more or less efficient....lets call it a ball park :) ). I havent run a 415V delta wired motor on a 240V VSD, but I have run 415V star wired motors on a 240V VSD(at least I assume they are star wired, I havent been inside them).

Stuart

jhovel
27th Jun 2012, 10:31 PM
Stuart,
I just checked my wiring rules (Not certain that they are the latest - but they are AS3000). You can have a 15A socket outlet on a 20A RCD protected circuit along with up to 4 10A outlets. A 15A outlet (a double powerpoint is considered a single outlet, oddly) can be installed on its own circuit and protected by up to 25A circuit breaker, depending on the cable section used. You cannot connect more than one 15A outlet (single or double) to a circuit it seems. You were mostly right and I was mostly wrong.....
:)
Joe

PS: in the process of checking, I also came across 20A powerpoints - hadn't come across them before. Unlike the 15A plugs and sockets, they actually DO have bigger power pind and connectors, along with the bigger earth pin of the 15A setup).

Vernonv
28th Jun 2012, 10:07 AM
As we are on a SWER system ...Am I correct in assuming you actually have 2 x 240V phases (180 deg apart i.e 480V phase to phase) coming into your property?

If so you may have other options - I personally run all my 3 phase gear off a 480V static phase converter. No need to change/rewire motors, no transformers and very cheap to setup.

Stustoys
28th Jun 2012, 10:30 AM
Hi Joe,
Thanks for that. Though I am scratching my head over what use a 15amp plug really is, why you can have a double but not two singles 4 feet apart and how having one 15 + four 10A outlets is ok but not two 15s instead......... still I'm sure they have their reasons(if I had to guess i'd say its likely something to do with the chances of multiple things starting at the same time, but thats just a guess). Happy to take half the "wrongness" :)

Stuart

Oldneweng
28th Jun 2012, 06:36 PM
Star or delta? I don't know which is which. All I know is that I need to connect my lathe motor up somehow. I found out today that the lathe is mine but a price is being worked out. I have a max price but may do better. This lathe is actually the one that I have mentioned in previous threads that was the replacement for my current lathe at work. Will post a pic in another thread shortly. Work has bought one of these https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L625D

I took some pics today with a new 16mp camera that just arrived and on looking at the pics noticed something.

213920

213921

Does this mean what I think it does? 2 speed motor?

The new lathe work bought is far bigger than the my new one but it still only has a 7.5 hp motor.

Dean

Joe. Thanks for the info. I need to check my wiring to the shed but I think it is standard. I need to run another cable of 20 amps or more to connect a 15 amp gpo. I don't suppose you can just add a 16 amp cable and call the two a 32 amp circuit. I already have 16 amp cable. I also need to check the distance and work that into the calc.

Stustoys
28th Jun 2012, 07:04 PM
Hi Dean,

Not the dreaded two speed motor:D, sure looks like it. But you dont need it(though you could likely keep it if you felt you really need it). Wire it up in low speed and use the VSD get your high speed back.

Though I can't understand the picture

Stuart

Oldneweng
28th Jun 2012, 07:10 PM
My main concern is that it will suit connection to the 240v output of a VSD and that I will have enough power from the VSD to drive the 7.5hp motor. Will It put out enough power to get the lathe up to 2000 rpm? Time will tell I hope.

Dean

jhovel
28th Jun 2012, 08:34 PM
Could tha L & H switch indicate a slow and fast feed screw? maybe there is a fast saddle drive with a separate motor or something?

Oldneweng
28th Jun 2012, 09:47 PM
The plate on the rear of the lathe lists only the drive motor and coolant motor hp rating and a total which adds up. There is space for an aux motor but nothing stamped in it.

213941

213942

These 2 pics cover everything on the gear control panels. The control in the centre of the top pic also has me puzzled. The pic of the switches covers everything visible except for an added emergency stop button to the left which also has a green button next to it and another green button which I think is the original start button on the far right of the panel. Unfortunately the area in between is blocked by a chuck guard mount setup which was added recently. I have to have a better look behind it tommorrow.

Dean

jackaroo
30th Jun 2012, 10:09 AM
Hi Big Shed,
Thanks. I remembered the post but didnt think I had a chance of finding it(tI thought it was in another thread, not that we do that sort of thing around here ;) ). It confirms(I'm pretty sure) that I've picked the correct ones, I need something to pad the order up to $20 altronics min)

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

I installed the 10k pot switch from Altronics. Changed pd2 to 1, changed the jumper to 2-3 and I can only go upto 25Hz max by using the knob.

Stustoys
30th Jun 2012, 11:24 AM
I assume its run over that without the pot and you havent changed any other settings.
Is in a lin or log pot?(though I'm not sure that would make a difference)
Do you have any other 10k pots?
There are other settings that may help but I've never used them and dont fully understand them, it should work as is.
Check PD070=0

Stuart

jackaroo
30th Jun 2012, 11:44 AM
Hi Stuart,

I only changed pd2 to 1, switched back to "0" and it goes back to 50Hz.
I bought 3 of them and replaced with another one just in case but with the same result. Its linear pot as below.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/jackaroo75/IMG_20120630_123138.jpg

Thanks
Trong

ps: I just check pd70 and its on "0"
->changed pd73 from "0" to "50" seems to fix it.

Stustoys
30th Jun 2012, 11:51 AM
Well that stuffs up my next guess which was your soldering wasn't the best :p

Ok the next thing I would try is soldering leads to one of your spare pots and connecting them to the external terminal(you'll have to move the jump back) and see what you get. (do you know which wire goes where?)

Stuart

edit
->changed pd73 from "0" to "50" seems to fix it.
Ummm ok... that was one of the ones I thought might have something to do with it but I'm yet to get my head around what they are for.

jackaroo
30th Jun 2012, 12:02 PM
Speak too early. Changed pd73 to "50" makes the knob useless, it runs at 50Hz, regardless of where i set the knob :(

Changing pd72 to "0" (.ie lowest freq) and pd73 to "50" (highest freq) makes the max on the knob at 25Hz and min at 50Hz :P. I'll have to try again tonight.

Regards,
Trong

tanii51
30th Jun 2012, 02:19 PM
Trong my settings are
pd 03 main freq 50
pd 04 base freq 50
pd05 max freq 70
pd07 010 default
pd 11 min freq 5 ( should maybe be a bit higher )
pd72 upper anologue freq 70
pd73 lower anologue freq 5 could be a bit higher

pd 142 rated motor current set to max of rated vfd current
i set mine to 5 amps just to be on the safe side
hope this helps
check you have the pot wired correctly
john

Stustoys
30th Jun 2012, 02:50 PM
Hi John,
I don't understand your setting "pd07 010 default"? Typo for 0.10 maybe?

Hard to wire it wrong when its mounted on the PCB.

Stuart

jhovel
30th Jun 2012, 07:10 PM
I had to mess around with PD72 on mine as well to set the range of the pot. Can't recall what I ended up with, but it had nothing to do with the frequecy of PD5 not what the motor maxed out to. I also found that only the forst half of the pot changed the frequency, the second half of the turn makes no difference. I'm wondering if the pot should be 5kOhm?
Joe

Stustoys
30th Jun 2012, 07:54 PM
Hi Joe,
10K is the correct pot.
I havent used these VSDs with a pot. I'll got have a quick play and see what I get.

Stuart

Stustoys
30th Jun 2012, 08:16 PM
Ok with an external pot mine works just as expected once PD072 is set to something move liveable for my poor old Hercus. i.e.50(as the manual says it default) not 400 as it came from the factory.

So if you set PD072 to the same as PD005 you should be set. (though I must say I'm a little surprised the pot can override the PD005 setting? maybe it cant.........back out to the shed lol)

Stuart

Edit, turns out PD005 was set at 400 so things were working as they should. working fine using full travel of pot now with PD072 and PD005 set at 50. Whats your min speed Joe? maybe that has something to do with it?

jhovel
30th Jun 2012, 08:31 PM
Stuart,
might be: my min speed is 0 and my max is 100Hz....
Joe

Oldneweng
30th Jun 2012, 08:38 PM
Eleven unrelated posts in a row. Is this what is meant by hyjacking a thread? LOL.

Dean

Stustoys
30th Jun 2012, 08:54 PM
Hi Joe,
I'm out of ideas(other than a dodgy pot).
I left PD072 =50 and changed PD005=100. Still used full travel of the pot going from 0 to 50hz.
Then I left PD005=100 and changed PD072 to =100. Still using full travel of pot going from 0 to 100.

Stuart

Edit 13:D

jackaroo
30th Jun 2012, 10:49 PM
#14, sorry just the last one :P

I just got home and couldnt wait until tomorrow.
Changed pd05 to 70 doesnt do anything.
Change pd50 back to "50" and pd72 to "70", it maxed out at 35Hz so I changed to 100 and it seems to do the trick, however upto about 40% on the knob it doesnt do anything but at least I get 50Hz at full turn.

my settings are:
pd0=0
pd1=0
pd2=1
pd3=50
pd4=50
pd5=50
pd6=2.5
pd7=0.5
pd8=240
pd24=1
pd25=0
pd26=1
pd70=0
pd72=100
pd73=0
pd141=240
pd142=2.4 (3/4hp motor)
pd143=4
pd144=1440

Regards,
Trong

ELM6061
1st Jul 2012, 12:16 AM
What is the difference between VFD and VSD then?

Dean
I asked the same question a while back and was told there is a difference, however so slight. I was told;

VFD drives & VSD drives both control motor speed etc, however VFD drives are used only for AC drives. VSD drives are used in both AC & dc DRIVES. VFD drives first convert Alternating current to DC inter-mediating power using Rectifier, then convert A.C using inverter.

I am still trying to get my head around these units however.

I have both a HM50 Hafco mill and an AL960B Hafco lathe and would love to add speed control to both and a brake to the lathe,
I have been told that a VFD/VSD will do the braking for me, and if I understand correctly, it was also mentioned in this thread; Is that correct, will they do the braking for you?
If they do brake for you via the electric motor, how much stress does this place on your lathes gears?

Also, when you fit a VFD/VSD does it mean that you by pass the original ON/OFF switches, including "Emergency"?

Thanks for the link, have not seen them that cheap before and has definitely re-sparked an interest.
Ed

Oldneweng
1st Jul 2012, 07:40 AM
In amongst the off thread posts there is a post that is on thread:U.


I asked the same question a while back and was told there is a difference, however so slight. I was told;
Quote:
VFD drives & VSD drives both control motor speed etc, however VFD drives are used only for AC drives. VSD drives are used in both AC & dc DRIVES. VFD drives first convert Alternating current to DC inter-mediating power using Rectifier, then convert A.C using inverter.
Thanks for the info. I will have a go at following this up.


I am still trying to get my head around these units however.I am also in the same position here.


I have been told that a VFD/VSD will do the braking for me, and if I understand correctly, it was also mentioned in this thread; Is that correct, will they do the braking for you?
If they do brake for you via the electric motor, how much stress does this place on your lathes gears?


I can tell you that yes they will do braking for you and that you can set the level of braking yourself. I would say start low and work up judging the effect yourself.


Also, when you fit a VFD/VSD does it mean that you by pass the original ON/OFF switches, including "Emergency"?

Again yes. The emergency switch arrangement is of concern to me also. Apparently the VSD/VFD can be damaged if the circuit between it and the drive motor is disconnected while operating. Last night I was reading this thread
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/help-wiring-teco-fm50-vfd-133899/
There is some useful info about your questions there and also some wiring diagrams.

Dean

.RC.
1st Jul 2012, 08:03 AM
You can get 240-415V transformers cheaply if you know where to look... What you want is a mult-input voltage welder... Some of the CIG arc welders were like this, they had provision for 240/415/480V input. You can use the transformer in these to get 415V from 240V..

Stustoys
1st Jul 2012, 10:43 AM
I can tell you that yes they will do braking for you and that you can set the level of braking yourself. I would say start low and work up judging the effect yourself.
And no. You can only get a small* amount of braking without an external resistor(they cost about $30). That will give you about about 5 times the braking(I believe, I havent used one). I dont like using VSD braking for a couple of reasons and have fitted a disc brake but thats up to you.

*That maybe enough depending on just how big the workpiece is and how fast its spinning.


Again yes. The emergency switch arrangement is of concern to me also. Apparently the VSD/VFD can be damaged if the circuit between it and the drive motor is disconnected while operating. Last night I was reading this thread

And no. You could bypass it all but why would you? Given a choice I would certainly use all the original switch gear or as much of it as I could.
Yes disconnecting the output while the VSD is operating isnt a good thing. You may choose to have an emergency stop AND an emergency isolate if you feel its necessary, But which ever switch you use most of the time will most likely be the switch you go for in a hurry.

Stuart

BobL
1st Jul 2012, 11:18 AM
I have an isolation to input switch on mine and it stops the lathe much quicker than the stop switch on the VSD.

Stustoys
1st Jul 2012, 11:41 AM
Hi Bob,
A what? more details please.

Stuart

Oldneweng
1st Jul 2012, 07:44 PM
See Ed, if you wait long enough someone comes along who knows something. If you can think of the right questions one also might get to learn what is needed but knowing what is needed in the first place is a problem. It is all very confusing to me at this point. None of the many VSD's at work are in situations that require emergency stops with braking, tho the electritians would still probably know about it anyway. That would be a last resort tho. I am gunna keep reading and see what happens. Would be easier if I had circuit diagrams of the unit I am going to buy then I could follow it directly.

Dean

ELM6061
3rd Jul 2012, 02:38 PM
Would be easier if I had circuit diagrams of the unit I am going to buy then I could follow it directly.

Dean
Here is the link that was posted earlier, to one of the VFD's on Ebay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/UPDATED-NEW-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-2-2KW-220-250V-10A-3HP-p7-/370571306065?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item5647c56451).
If you scroll about 1/3 of the way down their add, there is a wiring diagram (including brake resistor) not sure if that is included or as Stustoys said, $30 extra. Is that what you are after?

It would be worth contacting the Ebay seller/distributor and ask if the braking resistor described in their wiring diagram, whether it is supplied also, or if needs to be purchased separately.

Ed

Big Shed
3rd Jul 2012, 03:22 PM
For a 2.2kw VFD they specify either a 300W 400ohm or 300W 70ohm braking resistor, these can be bought on Ebay for between $25 and $27 delivered.

Solder Lug Terminals Wired Braking Resistor 300W 70ohm | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Solder-Lug-Terminals-Wired-Braking-Resistor-300W-70ohm-/251097400239?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3a769243af)

BobL
3rd Jul 2012, 03:32 PM
Hi Bob,
A what? more details please.

Stuart

It's a push-to-latch-off switch that just cuts the 240V power to the VSD. I was advised by my sparky to fit this on the lathe as an emergency isolator for the mains from the VSD and lathe.

As you can see in this photo it stands out like dogs proverbials.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/170655d1305965929-vsd-suggestion-wholelathe.jpg
It's much easier than reaching up to the VSD box in an emergency - in fact it sticks out a little too far and I find myself occasionally bumping into it and cutting off the power.

Stustoys
3rd Jul 2012, 04:15 PM
Hi Big Shed,
My manual shows 300W 250Ohm for the 3 phase 2.2kW(did you pick up the one for the 1.5kW?)

Hi Bob,
And you say the removing 240V supply from the VSD stops the spindle faster? Maybe there is a "brake if supply is lost" option on your VSD? Do you have your VSD on "Coasting stop" or "decelerating stop"? If on decelerating stop, how long is the ramp time?

On the Teco there would be a pause before it shut down. The Huanyang has a minium if 0.1secs supply lost before it will even start shutting down, I've no idea if it then trys braking?

Stuart

Big Shed
3rd Jul 2012, 04:18 PM
Hi Big Shed,
My manual shows 300W 250Ohm for the 3 phase 2.2kW(did you pick up the one for the 1.5kW?)


Stuart

Got those from the Hy manual downloaded from RayG web page.

Edit:

Hmm, bit confusing, they skipped a line in that table the 2.2kw HY202238 2.2kw is 300W 70 ohm
the HY 202438 2.2kw is 300W 250ohm

Oldneweng
3rd Jul 2012, 07:09 PM
Here is the link that was posted earlier, to one of the VFD's on Ebay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/UPDATED-NEW-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-2-2KW-220-250V-10A-3HP-p7-/370571306065?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item5647c56451).
If you scroll about 1/3 of the way down their add, there is a wiring diagram (including brake resistor) not sure if that is included or as Stustoys said, $30 extra. Is that what you are after?

It would be worth contacting the Ebay seller/distributor and ask if the braking resistor described in their wiring diagram, whether it is supplied also, or if needs to be purchased separately.

Ed

First I have to know which unit I am going to buy. I received a PM from a member with info re a 5hp 4kw unit. I replied asking for info on supplier but have had nothing back. I just checked my PM's and found no sent items so maybe that reply did not work. I could have a look at the link but I think it would be better to wait until I decide.

Stuart

How would it do the braking if the power is cut off? Some of the units at work will still have a display for long enough to wind the cord around the pump handles, even after unscrewing and disconnecting the plug from the socket 20 amp 3 ph. I am also interested in Bob's reply.

Dean

BobL
3rd Jul 2012, 07:18 PM
Hi Bob,
And you say the removing 240V supply from the VSD stops the spindle faster? Maybe there is a "brake if supply is lost" option on your VSD? Do you have your VSD on "Coasting stop" or "decelerating stop"? If on decelerating stop, how long is the ramp time?
For normal off operation I have it coasting until it reaches 30Hz and then it's on decelerating stop. On supply loss it seems to stop even faster.

Oldneweng
3rd Jul 2012, 07:34 PM
For normal off operation I have it coasting until it reaches 30Hz and then it's on decelerating stop. On supply loss it seems to stop even faster.

First we are going to need proper stop watch timing to check the differences between the 2, then we are going to need to find out why this is so.:U

Dean

Stustoys
3rd Jul 2012, 08:25 PM
Hi Dean,
There are some big capacitors in there. I believe but havent tested they can run the motor for a short time with the power off(dependant on load I guess). I'm not exactly sure how the braking works, something to do with feeding DC to the motor, so cant really comment

Hi Bob,

"coasting until it reaches 30Hz" Havent heard of that before, only decelerating then braking. Neather of my VSD can start braking until 10Hz.

Stuart

BobL
3rd Jul 2012, 09:50 PM
Hi Bob,

"coasting until it reaches 30Hz" Havent heard of that before, only decelerating then braking. Neather of my VSD can start braking until 10Hz.

Stuart

Hi Stu,

I can set the frequency at which it starts braking and then set the rate of braking (Up to a point).

Stustoys
3rd Jul 2012, 10:06 PM
Hi Bob,
Does it have a max Freq you can set the braking?
The max Freq you can start braking on the Teco and Huanyang is 10Hz

Stuart

BobL
4th Jul 2012, 09:03 AM
Hi Bob,
Does it have a max Freq you can set the braking?
The max Freq you can start braking on the Teco and Huanyang is 10Hz

Stuart

I will see if I can find the manual. I think it might be 30 Hz.

Stustoys
12th Jul 2012, 03:58 PM
Never believe the Huanyang manual.
Due to a question in another thread I tried changing PD028(stopping freq or braking freq). The manual says 20hz max, I could set mine at 50hz. It may go higher if that wasnt my max spindle hz. I've no idea if it makes any difference but am going to old a resistor and try and find out.
I'll have to test the Teco.

Stuart

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