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ClintO
8th August 2012, 06:22 PM
I placed a ridiculous bid on 10 turning chisels not expectig to win them, guess what I am now the proud owner of 10 chisels that have been made from old files.
They are beautifully made, re-handled and perfectly sharpened, obviously done by someone who cares and that makes me like them more
I am just curious how the file steel will compare to the more conventionally made modern (or old) turning chisels.

dabbler
8th August 2012, 06:37 PM
Pictures ?

tea lady
8th August 2012, 06:51 PM
Files are apparently to brittle really to be used as turning chisels. Its the type of thing that will prolly be OK till you have a monumental catch and it shatters. :C Turning chisels can take a bit of pummeling.

Sturdee
8th August 2012, 07:24 PM
Depends on the age of the files used, thickness of the files, the tools it's made into and whether the metal has been retreated to make it less brittle.


Wouldn't use modern files as tool steel blanks cost the same soI would only use old ones and only for scrapers and parting tools.


Peter.

issatree
8th August 2012, 08:10 PM
Hi ClintO,
Files are fine, PROVIDED, they have been heat treated.
Both Tea Lady & Sturdee have valid opinions.
I really think you should treat them or even ask the Seller if he did anything with them.
So as we understand it, they have No File Marks on them, & maybe shortened a bit as well.
I have 4 Files in my Tools, & 3 are used as Scrapers & 1 as a Parting Tool.
They don't last a long time, say 10 - 15 mins. of continuous use, then need to be Sharpened again.

ClintO
8th August 2012, 08:13 PM
They appear to be quite old, certainly heavy weight, 5 of them a Wiltshire, the others have their marks removed
Most of them are about 500mm long
Any idea of the wood?

Avery
8th August 2012, 08:31 PM
Don't know about the files, but the handles look great.

issatree
9th August 2012, 03:05 AM
Some look to be Oregan.

IanW
9th August 2012, 08:45 AM
Clint, I've been re-using old files for various tools most of my life - a habit you pick up growing up on a farm with a forge & basic metal-working gear. As Issatree says, you do need to be aware that they are much harder than regular HSS tools in their 'raw' state, but if the files are reasonably heavy cross-section, the liklihood of shattering one doing spindle turning is pretty remote. Different ball-game if you are into great big gnarly bowl blanks - in that case I would definitely be checking if they were tempered back a bit, and wearing a full face shield when trying them. :;

I used shortened 10" files ground with metal type cutting edges for turning brass on my wood lathe, before I got a 'proper' metal lathe (if you want to turn metal on your wood lathe, do it at VERY SLOW speed!). Still use them for turning a neat end on fitted ferrules, etc. These files are not tempered, and when I had a couple of catches whilst learning to use them properly, the lathe stalled, but they haven't ever broken. I also use an old file as a narrow parting tool. This one was annealed, then re-hardened. It was done by pure guess-work, so I'm not sure how hard it is on the Rockwell scale, but it's not a lot softer than originally, judging by the way it grinds. It gets a fair bit of use, & seems to keep its edge at least as well as my HCS 'regular' parting tool. (Which I think is a Sorby, but it's so long since I bought it (~35 years) I can't remember, & the etch has long since faded into the oxide background).

Without knowing where the wood comes from, it is near impossible to id, but it reminds me a lot of Honey Locust (Gleditsia triacanthos), native to N.E. North America. There are a few grown in the south of Aust, but it's not comon. The wood is as tough as they come, & makes excellent handles, so if that's what you have, you won't have to worry about breaking them.

Got a couple of loose ferrules, there, though.....

Cheers,

ClintO
9th August 2012, 10:04 AM
Thanks for the advice.
I will use them sensibly, just in case, but I certainly wont be doing too much in the way of heavy duty turning without a lathe upgrade

orraloon
9th August 2012, 11:29 AM
I have a couple of scrapers made from files that came with my first lathe. I have always been aware of how brittle they can be so only use them for a fine finishing scrape. Even on large bowls too. I find they take a good edge so are ideal for this.
Regards
John

ClintO
9th August 2012, 03:15 PM
I contacted the guy I bought them from and they were made by an old pattern maker who has since passed on.
For $40 I think I did OK, with the provisos mentioned.
I see no discolouration which I would imagine would be an after effect of heat treating
The old file teeth have been mostly polished off which might also have removed the discolouration

RETIRED
9th August 2012, 05:00 PM
The way pattern makers use tools is a little different than a turner uses them.

Their work is mainly scraping and removing small amounts at a time to within .010" or finer.

Used as scrapers they should be ok for fine cuts with rest close as others have said.

Personally I would not use a file and would never condone it.

BobL
9th August 2012, 05:43 PM
It is very easy to temper old files to a more reliable level of hardness by heating them them in an oven at about 240ºC for about an hour.
A small problem is that most ovens do not have a temperature sensor that is accurate and most will over read their actual temperature and unless it is fan force will have a significant temp variability within the oven.
(I'm fortunate to be able to read my oven's temp using a calibrated thermocouple)
To be sure they reach 240ºC place then on a chunky piece of steel or ally at the top of the oven.

Another problem with old files is that they are likely to shatter/crack/break along the lines of the teeth. Ideally these should be ground off before being used as tools which is what I always do when making tools out of files like these (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f44/4-new-hand-tools-33071/).

BlackbuttWA
10th August 2012, 10:05 AM
From experience....Do NOT use files. Unless you know a metallurgist.

I stupidly used a file before I bought some chisels, not knowing any different.
I had a catch, I was left holding the handle & a very sharp pointed section of file.
Even when I cleared the shed to move house I still didn't find the other half.

I didn't touch the lathe for about 5 years.

HTH

Col

hughie
11th August 2012, 10:24 AM
[The way pattern makers use tools is a little different than a turner uses them.
Their work is mainly scraping and removing small amounts at a time to within .010" or finer.


I use old large files as above and have done so for many years with out incident. However and its a sizable however. I dont suggest it that we all should do it.

I know its abit of 'do as I say, not do as I do' But most of the turners here have a small amount of engineering experience and some little or none. This makes it difficult to make an assement of the inherent dangers.



Used as scrapers they should be ok for fine cuts with rest close as others have said.



In my case, the over hang is down to a couple of centmeters at most and quite often at a negative angle to boot.

With my background I feel confident within certain constraints to do so. Its true modern files are not as strong, generally because of the thickness has been greatly reduced over the years, and that all about cost and making a quid.

BobL
11th August 2012, 12:20 PM
From experience....Do NOT use files. Unless you know a metallurgist. I stupidly used a file before I bought some chisels, not knowing any different. I had a catch, I was left holding the handle & a very sharp pointed section of file. Even when I cleared the shed to move house I still didn't find the other half.


Was the file tempered and the teeth removed?

Bushmiller
11th August 2012, 04:06 PM
BobL has sort of beaten me to the punch (again :rolleyes:).

I have in the past made tools, including turning chisels, from truck leaf springs and the process is similar to using a file for the same purpose.

High carbon steel, that has already been heat treated, has to be annealed before it can be worked on and this is achieved by heating and holding the heat for a period of time. The steel is then allowed to cool very slowly. At this stage the steel can be drilled (not easily though) ground and shaped.

Once in the correct shape the steel is heated again to harden it (cherry red) and quenched rapidly in oil or water. I use oil. At this point it is very hard and very brittle. To be a useable tool it has to be tempered, which means reheating to a relatively low temperature (straw colour for chisels) and quenched once more.

Now a couple of things, because I have very much over-simplified the process. The colours are an visual thing and nowhere near as precise as the oven BobL refers to. The blacksmiths used their eyes (probably without safety glasses:oo:) and their skill was in their judgement.

The second thing (I'm getting there), and this is the important part to my mind, a file has all the multitude of cutting edges on it (compared to the leaf spring) and that creates the potential for weakness due to stress. I think this may be why some have had bad experiences with chisels made from files.

I was told a long time ago that to use files the cutting edges should be ground flat first. Clearly this is a lot of work and hardly worth doing, although I do have a file that has been ground perfectly flat for this purpose.

I have never used it.

Just a comment on 's remark about the effete turning of patternmakers (eh... that came out wrong, but I'm sure you know what I mean), a good friend in a former life was a patternmaker and he recounted to me that he worked with a guy who did all the rough turning of large blanks (600mm plus diameter). He said this old bloke used an axe complete with full length handle!

Apparantly he used to hang on for dear life. Those were the days:cool:.

Regards
Paul

tea lady
13th August 2012, 01:28 PM
Just a comment on 's remark about the effete turning of patternmakers (eh... that came out wrong, but I'm sure you know what I mean), a good friend in a former life was a patternmaker and he recounted to me that he worked with a guy who did all the rough turning of large blanks (600mm plus diameter). He said this old bloke used an axe complete with full length handle!

Apparantly he used to hang on for dear life. Those were the days:cool:.

Regards
PaulAh yes! But did he use it in scraping mode or like a skew? :D We just use a 2 inch roughing gouge. :cool:

Bushmiller
14th August 2012, 08:44 AM
Ah yes! But did he use it in scraping mode or like a skew? :D We just use a 2 inch roughing gouge. :cool:

TL

I was led to believe he used it like a skew:oo:. I also got the impression that the others in the workshop stood well back:). He was the only one who performed this task and the rest of the group were very comfortable that fact:wink:.

Regards
Paul

IanW
14th August 2012, 09:14 AM
I saw a friend using an axe as a skew for spindle-turning. He did it just to demonstrate the principle of the skewed cutting edge. So I tried it, and it's actually quite easy to do. However, ripping into a 600mm chunk on a face-plate with an axe doesn't appeal to me one bit - don't think I'll try that one at home! :U

Cheers,

issatree
14th August 2012, 11:13 AM
Hi Again,
I do mine almost the same as been said, so I will go through the way I was told & would do if I had to.
After selecting the File, I wrap it in some cloth & tighten in the Vice. I then hit it rather hard with a Hammer to Break off the unwanted Part. Say 100mm.?
You then need to heat the whole File to a Cherry Red, then let it Cool on its own, being NO Water at this stage.
Now the Angle Grinder, to take ALL the Cutting Edges Off.
Blackbutt WA, thought it was a bit hard doing all this, but when it has been turned into Mild Steel, it is rather easy to get them off.
I then grind to the Profile I want. Back to the Heating or Tempering if you like, but only the last 2½ in. or 60 mm. You may have to Heat this twice, then as has been said again, Quench in either Oil or Water, when it gets to a Straw like Colour.
I like to take the Corners off as well, & the Polish the New Tool, on the Stitched Cloth Wheel, using Brown, Blue & then Green Rouge for a very high Polish, as I find that this almost stops any Rust Forming.
Well that is more than my 2 sense worth.

NeilS
16th August 2012, 11:36 AM
It was understandable that patternmakers in the past made their own scrapers for the many profiles that they needed from the endless supply of spent files that they had to hand.

But now, with readily available and relatively cheap* HSS blanks (which will be much better steel for scrapers, whatever the quality, than any high carbon steel file), why bother mucking around with all that annealing, grinding off of teeth, hardening and re-tempering; unless you enjoy doing that sort of thing.

*eg 6mm x 25mm x 200mm HSS blank for $25 from McYouKnowWho
When boxes of old turning tools get donated to the local men's shed I immediately discard all of the home-mades from tool steel and old files. They are just not worth the trouble; if they have been tempered too hard they are dangerous, if too soft they are useless and if they are just right (Goldilocks) they are still not going to keep a sharp edge as long as any modern HSS.

jimbur
16th August 2012, 11:59 AM
I used a converted file as a skew (1") for a year or so, fortunately without accidents but it's hidden at the bottom of a box somewhere now. I'll dig it out one day and re-use the handle.
I've also used small files for very small spindle mouldings but nowadays, as Neil says, HSS blanks are so cheap I stick to those now especially after I read somewhere that you might think you've ground out the teeth but the weaknesses might still be there.
Cheers,
Jim