Marking Fluid

[grunto]

Trying to source some marking fluid (bluing) but can't seem to find any. Couldn't find any on eBay of H&F so I am obviously not calling it the right name or something. If anyone knows of a supplier in the eastern suburbs on Melbourne it would be much appreciated.

[morrisman]

Hi

This might be of use . At one time REPCO sold this stuff . Don't Know if its any good as a marking out dye . MIKE

At TAFE they used tin cans of that blue marking dye , the proper stuff, I should have asked where they got it from

BEARING BLUE -25ML POWERPLUS, KELRAY, PRUSSIAN BLUE OIL TUBE PP103 POWER PLUS | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BEARING-BLUE-25ML-POWERPLUS-KELRAY-PRUSSIAN-BLUE-OIL-TUBE-PP103-POWER-PLUS-/120921983063?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Industrial_Supply_MRO&hash=item1c27830857)

[Blu_Rock]

Have a look at this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/mark-out-dye-105137/)... I use a thick black marker

[Grahame Collins]

try Dy - Mark
Ink LOS Blue
Code 24010103

1 Litre bottle was $23 or so 2 or 3 years back

I got it through an engineering supply shop here in Mackay.It will be similar elsewhere.AE. Baker is in east Melbourne i think.

Grahame

[denncarm]

Minitech had some last time I was there

[Ueee]

Hi

This might be of use . At one time REPCO sold this stuff . Don't Know if its any good as a marking out dye . MIKE

At TAFE they used tin cans of that blue marking dye , the proper stuff, I should have asked where they got it from

BEARING BLUE -25ML POWERPLUS, KELRAY, PRUSSIAN BLUE OIL TUBE PP103 POWER PLUS | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BEARING-BLUE-25ML-POWERPLUS-KELRAY-PRUSSIAN-BLUE-OIL-TUBE-PP103-POWER-PLUS-/120921983063?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Industrial_Supply_MRO&hash=item1c27830857)

Hi Mike,
That is what you use to scrape, it will not dry.

Hi grunto,
Try searching for layout dye or layout stain.

Edit, Just got home and checked, Dy Mark is what i have too

[Steamwhisperer]

Total Tools have the Dy-Mark layout stain.

Phil

[morrisman]

Ok

Do a seach for "Stuarts engineers blue "

The permanent marker pens do work OK as a substitute . And, they are available anywhere and in various colours . Mike

[swk]

did my apprenticeship using marking dye (bearing blue is the paste for finding high spots).

But for the little bit of serious metal work I do, I've used thick blue textas for the last 10 years or so. (no good reason for them to be blue, other than habit I suppose)

Judging by the prices it would be cheaper if you did a lot of work to buy the proper stuff, but with a texta you don't have to cover the whole area. A 1/2" wide line about where you want to scribe is fine.

Regards
SWK

[jhovel]

But if you find the right fluid, you can always refill the marker pen if you choose one with a screw-off end.
That is the best combination I've found.
I think I have mentioned this before: the die used to paint through the stencils on wool bales feels and smells the same as marking fluid to me and is available at stock and station agents like Elders. So are the big felt marker pens.
Joe

[morrisman]

I wonder if Blue ink would work . When I was a kid at primary school we used fountain pens , you would buy bottles of ink at the newsagents . Some of the up market pens had plastic cartridges , my pen had a squeeze type bladder that sucked up a load of ink , it had a little window so you could see when it was getting low . Before fountain pens, we used those dip in the ink well pens . Yeah I'm that old . Mike

[Toggy]

MM
I was going to mention the age thing but you beat me to it.

At least you can still remember it.

Ken

[Ueee]

Delving into the 2nd drawer of my desk i have a bottle of violet calligraphy ink(yes i have several calligraphy pens too), as well as a bottle of blue ink pad refill. I imagine the stamp pad refill is just waterbased ink but the calligraphy ink is shellac based.
If anyone is interested i can test these both tomorrow. They would have been bought from an arts store and officeworks.

[jhovel]

Please do Ueee!

[Steamwhisperer]

HI Ewan,
I would be interested too. It would be nice if there was an alternative that we can use. :2tsup:

Phil

[Chief Tiff]

I use DYKEM Steel Blue, a 2oz bottle has lasted me for years.

It is an American product so the best way to get it would probably through Amazon or similar, but here is a link (http://www.boardshop.com.au/servlet/the-188860/DYKEM-LAYOUT-FLUID-2oz/Detail) to an Aus site who stocks the red version. Buying it direct from the US would probably be much cheaper too!

[Steamwhisperer]

Ok

Do a seach for "Stuarts engineers blue "

The permanent marker pens do work OK as a substitute . And, they are available anywhere and in various colours . Mike

Hi Mike,
this is the Stuarts, but it's for scraping

Phil
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390384106237?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

[nadroj]

A retired TAFE metalworking teacher I know uses blue printers' ink, which isn't water soluble.

Jordan

[jack620]

I use DYKEM Steel Blue, a 2oz bottle has lasted me for years.

It is an American product so the best way to get it would probably through Amazon or similar, but here is a link (http://www.boardshop.com.au/servlet/the-188860/DYKEM-LAYOUT-FLUID-2oz/Detail) to an Aus site who stocks the red version. Buying it direct from the US would probably be much cheaper too!

I reckon so. $22 for a 2oz bottle in oz versus $5.78 for a 4oz bottle from this mob:

Dykem Steel Blue Layout Fluid (http://www.durablesupply.com/dystbllafl.html)

I haven't checked postage, but as usual, it's probably worth buying a few items and having them shipped in a 4lb USPS Flat Rate Box.

Chris

EDIT: just checked the MSDS and it's flammable, so I guess that rules out Air Freight. Maybe that's why the Oz supplier can charge the prices he does.

[Michael G]

Has anyone tried the copper sulphate on steel trick? I use a big blue texta but that strikes me as a simple (although possibly toxic)marking solution.

Michael

[TED C]

Google R S Components,
they have Rocol layout dye in stock,(Sydney,as of last week] Starret is ex U.K takes about 7 days to get in.
Ted

[Stustoys]

Coatings - Engineers Layout Ink (http://www.dymark.com.au/coatings/Product-details.aspx?product=788) list it at $23.70 for 1 litre in seven colors. I dont know if they have counter sales, I'd been planning on making a call but I mixed up a copper plating mark out liquid instead. Just Copper Sulphate and Vinegar. Seems to work ok but needs a machined surface it doesnt work over scale(but you can soler to it).

Stuart

p.s. yes the page I linked to only shows four colors but the price list also shows green, yellow and brown.

[TED C]

Google R S Components,
they have Rocol layout dye in stock,(Sydney,as of last week] Starret is ex U.K takes about 7 days to get in.
Ted

[jack620]

Just checked RS. The Rocol stuff is $69 per litre plus postage. The starrett is $22.96 for 118mL.

[Ueee]

Ouch! The dy mark was $23 for a liter......

[Stustoys]

Hi Micheal,
As I said above I've tried copper sulphate. I couldnt find a real recipe so just mixed up a batch myself. I cant lay my hands on the quantities I used, but its pretty much as much copper sulphate as you can dissolve in however much water you choose to use. Some say add acid to the mix but most times it doesnt seem to be needed. If its not working to well I just paint on a little vinegar first then the copper sulphate mix.

Stuart

p.s. why do you say possibly toxic?

[Big Shed]

Popular Science - Google Books (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=XigDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=copper+sulphate+marking+fluid&source=bl&ots=lLV-hk_dp6&sig=8uIVq15mwA8YUqXbRsMJKtt5RZg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LqAlUJTzI82XiQen7oD4Cg&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAA)

[Stustoys]

Thanks Big Shed, mine doesnt even have the salt and seems to work. I'll have to give it a try, though if its rust they are qorried about, woudl salt be any better?

Stuart

[Abratool]

Recently I purchased on EBay 20 grams of Prussian Blue Powder from W.Aust
for $4.95 delivered.:)
For bearing blue useage as in scraping I just mix it with a light oil on a piece of absorbant cardboard & it works fine.
Also found if I mix the Prussian Blue powder with a little methylated spirits, it makes a nice marking out fluid.
So for all of $4.95 I have a substance that makes 2 products.:2tsup:
Thanks to Simon for giving me the lead on the Prussian Powder.
At current useage rate It should last me another 400 yrs or so.
regards
Bruce

[grunto]

Thanks for all the info and advice. Used a black marker to get me out of trouble last night - worked well.

I tried my local bearing supplier this morning but no luck - I will try Total Tools during the week. Might also give Dy-Mark a call and see what suppliers they have in Melbourne.

Have ordered some Prussian Blue via eBay - for $4.95 I have to give it a try!

[Michael G]

The acid or salt is just to make the solution conductive as it is an electrolysis reaction. with normal Australian tap water, there is probably enough chemical in there for electrolysis to take place anyway.
I say possibly toxic because copper sulphate is used as an insecticide and weedicide in the garden, so ingesting it would probably not be a good idea.

Michael

[jack620]

Also found if I mix the Prussian Blue powder with a little methylated spirits, it makes a nice marking out fluid.


Thanks Bruce, I was wondering if it was soluble in metho. I've also ordered myself 20g.
Chris

[jack620]

The Dy-Mark MSDS says their stuff has between 1-10% non-hazardous resin in it. Shellac maybe? It's soluble in metho and would give the solution a bit of body.

EDIT: should have checked wiki first:

"Marking blue is made by mixing methylated spirits with shellac and gentian violet"

[Ueee]

Whilst working today I was thinking about what Bruce does with the powder and I wonder how water/coolant resistant it is. I had wondered if adding shellac flakes would help, looks like it would! I tested the ink today, will report my findings when I am home and on the pc rather than my phone.

[Abratool]

Whilst working today I was thinking about what Bruce does with the powder and I wonder how water/coolant resistant it is. I had wondered if adding shellac flakes would help, looks like it would! I tested the ink today, will report my findings when I am home and on the pc rather than my phone.
Ewan
The metho mix is not water resistant.
Like other marking blues I have used it will come off when used with water soluble oil.
I might try adding a bit of shellac also.
Thanks for that.
regards
Bruce
I have discovered the mix of Prussian Blue powder with a little, light oil (3 in One or similiar) mixed on a piece of cardboard allows the oil to absorb into the cardboard & makes an excellent media for scraping projects.
I did try the rubber roll you kindly posted me, but find a wiper "blade" made of rubber or similiar seems to work well, when applying the media to the granite or cast iron reference, surface plate.

[Ueee]

Ewan
The metho mix is not water resistant.
Like other marking blues I have used it will come off when used with water soluble oil.
I might try adding a bit of shellac also.
Thanks for that.
regards
Bruce
I have discovered the mix of Prussian Blue powder with a little, light oil (3 in One or similiar) mixed on a piece of cardboard allows the oil to absorb into the cardboard & makes an excellent media for scraping projects.
I did try the rubber roll you kindly posted me, but find a wiper "blade" made of rubber or similiar seems to work well, when applying the media to the granite or cast iron reference, surface plate.

I think that roller is a bit soft, it is softer than the art store one i bought.

Anyhow, the ink results.
The four pics below are self explanatory, and the ease of visibility is pretty much how it looks in the pics. The violet ink was by far the best, but i don't know whether that is because of the colour or the ink itself, then the Dy-mark, texta and the stamp pad ink. They all dried at about the same speed, although the stamp ink wanted to pool a bit. The only thing i don't know is whether the violet ink is actually shellac. I thought it was, it has that sheen to it, but it doesn't say on the bottle.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0902Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0899Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0900Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0901Large.jpg

Then i tested the dye's for coolant proofness.....this is where the thought about the violet ink not being shellac came in, i expected it to do better. The pic is after only 10sec of coolant flowing over the bar. From left to right: Dy-Mark, Texta, Stamp pad ink, Calligraphy ink.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0905Large.jpg

If you where not using coolant, i would say some calligraphy ink would be my choice, it went on easily and the scribed lines showed up very well.

[Abratool]

Ewan
Thanks for the analysis.
This afternoon I added a little shellac to my Prussian blue metho mix, for the marking out medium.
This mixture seemed to adhere well to the metal, but I did not evaluate it with coolant.
I do have some "U Beaut" brand, Hard Shellac which I may try as well. Its got better resistance to heat & water. I know its been very good for woodworking projects, & has proven its worth.
Its good experimenting, even though we may be re inventing the wheel.:)
regards
Bruce

[Steamwhisperer]

Fantastic Ewan. :2tsup: Have I got this right. In the coolant test, reading from the left you have the Dy Mark then the texta then the stamp pad ink and then the calligraphy ink.

Phil

[Ueee]

Fantastic Ewan. :2tsup: Have I got this right. In the coolant test, reading from the left you have the Dy Mark then the texta then the stamp pad ink and then the calligraphy ink.

Phil

Thats right Phil,
I have just edited the post to make it clear.

[morrisman]

Thanks for taking the time to do that comparison Ewan

Can I ask . The Calligraphy ink is available at Art stores or the newsagents stationers ? And, what brand did you use ?

Mike

[Ropetangler]

Ewan
Thanks for the analysis.
This afternoon I added a little shellac to my Prussian blue metho mix, for the marking out medium.
This mixture seemed to adhere well to the metal, but I did not evaluate it with coolant.
I do have some "U Beaut" brand, Hard Shellac which I may try as well. Its got better resistance to heat & water. I know its been very good for woodworking projects, & has proven its worth.
Its good experimenting, even though we may be re inventing the wheel.:)
regards
Bruce
Thanks gents for some interesting and informative discussion. The question I have is, 'does anyone know if the addition of shellac to gentian violet or any other staining dye, shorten the shelf life of the layout ink?' A secondary question, does commercial layout ink like say "Dye-Mark" have a use by date? If it does, I have been unaware that this was the case, but in some info I have read tonight, mixed shellac in alcohol begins to esterify from the time it is mixed, and woodworkers using shellac finishes would have to dispose of old mixed shellac from around 6 months earlier. It changes in character and just remains tacky for extended periods. Here is a quote from a link below, which explains the process.
"Once dissolved in alcohol, shellac eventually esterifies. Although I have successfully used 12 month old shellac, shellacs older than 6 months should be tested. Pour a small amount onto a piece of glass. If not dry to the touch within 5 minutes, it should be discarded. For this reason, it's a good idea to make up only enough shellac to use within a six-month period."
I would expect that with the right shellac the resistance to coolant would be increased, but perhaps there are better compounds to use to improve the resistance of the ink, but I cant think of any ATM which also dry as quickly as shellac, and don't have properties detrimental to the marking out process.
Here is the link to the complete article I got my info from,
SHELLAC (http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/shellac.htm)
Rob

[Bryan]

Rob I'm using some stain I got from TAFE in the mid 80s, so nearly 30 years old. I guess it doesn't contain shellac because it still works great. The only thing I know about Shellac is it's made from bugs and bat droppings. Allegedly.

Edit: I just read the relevant section from your link and it seems the bugs part is true at least.

[Ropetangler]

Thanks Bryan, I must say that I was under the impression that it had an almost unlimited shelf life, having seen old bottles of it lying around in previous workplaces, and I never saw any that appeared to have gone off.
On the bat droppings, I have never heard that one, but perhaps the Lac beetle lives on them and that is the association. I understand that most shellac originates in India, and is largely a cottage industry. It is the shell of the Lac beetle that they use, hence the name presumably.
Getting back to your old ex TAFE supply, do you have a brand you can still read on the bottle, and is yours resistant to coolant? Up till now I have just used a large blue Texta, with about a 10mm wide tip. It is starting to dry out a bit now, it must be 5 yrs old or more, and if it doesn't respond to some solvent - metho, prepsol, thinners etc, I will have to get another or perhaps some of the proper stuff:wink:.
Rob.

[Ueee]

Thanks for taking the time to do that comparison Ewan

Can I ask . The Calligraphy ink is available at Art stores or the newsagents stationers ? And, what brand did you use ?

Mike

Hi Mike,
The bottle i have is Winsor and Newton, but i think any brand would be ok. It would have been bought from an arts store, I don't think newsagents or even office supply stores would have it.

As far as a shelf life, the Dy-Mark has no used by i can see, just a batch number. The MSDS says it contains ethanol, propylene glycol monomethyl ether, dye, nonhazardous, resin, nonhazardous

Rob, thats about what i know of shellac, the only other useless fact is it is used in some food colourings to give that shine that shellac has.

[Bryan]

The bottle is unmarked - probably decanted. I don't use coolant but it's quite resistant to oil and wear. Metho shifts it nicely. Not much help, sorry. That's why I didn't reply sooner.

[Abratool]

Rob
I read with much interest, your article on Shellac.
What an excellent summary.
I have been using Shellac or French Polish on woodworking projects for 50 plus years & swear by the stuff.
Shellac is very good as a preliminary wood sealer prior to scuff sanding, for wood grain levelling.
It gives a superb finish using a pad in the traditional method of French Polishing.
Yes, I am hooked on the stuff :2tsup:
Regarding the shelf life problem, am aware that it does go off over a period of time, however I have not experienced that problem. Primarily because I dissolve enough Shellac flakes in the metho to last say 6 mths. I have heard from others of the drying & sticky problem with old stock. With the marking blue I have only mixed up a couple of teaspoons of the Shellac Prussian Blue, a little goes a long way.
The Gentian Violet looks promising from Ewans experiments.
By the way, something I discovered a little while back.
The commercial metho from Bunnings, Supermarkets etc has water in it. Not good for French Polishing.
The best metho is available from Carbatec its pure Denatured Alcohol 100%... no water.
regards
Bruce

[Ropetangler]

Thanks Brian and Ewan, for your replies, and for your research Ewan. It never ceases to amaze me of the things I don't know about stuff I normally take for granted.:D This has been interesting and informative as I noted earlier.
Rob.

[Ropetangler]

Thanks Bruce for your kind words and followup on shellac. I missed it this morning when I posed last, and have just noticed your contribution. I have read in some of my woodie magazines about using shellac as a sealer prior to sanding, and on a bottle of our sponsors product, which I purchased at a WoodWorking Show several years ago now, (not knowing anything about the likely shelf life), it says that you can dilute old mixed shellac, which has passed its use by date, with another 8 parts of metho to make a very good sanding sealer. Knowing a little more now, I would buy flakes instead of pre-dissolved flakes. Do you think metho from paint shops would be the real deal too, as we don't have Carba-Tec anywhere near here. I see on my Diggers brand metho, that it is 95% Ethanol solution v:v, the other 5%being presumably the denaturing agent + water. Cheers and thanks again Bruce,
Rob

[Abratool]

Rob
In all honesty I have used the cheaper Metho "Diggers" & the like, etc for years, not realising that it contained water.
I noticed my French Polishing, rubbing pad, when stored in a tightly sealed jar developed a lot of small black spots across the face of the cloth pad.
I was told this was a form of mildew, caused by the water in the metho.
About a year or so back I started using some "U Beaut" brand Australia manuf. "Hard Shellac" This has got a cross polymer, & is great stuff but once again does have a shelf life..
Its great for table tops & the like as its more heat & moisture resistant. I was also advised to use the more pure form of Metho with none of the water additive.
Things have gone well ever since.:2tsup:
I am sure Pro paint shops would have the better quality metho if you wanted to pursue.
Did a bit more trial with the homemade Prussian Blue Shellac mix today, as a marking out blue.
It does seem to work well.
I would like to try Gentian Violet, but it seems its not available in Australia these days.
Thanks for your interest.
regards
Bruce

[Ueee]

Hi Bruce,
This powder looks about the right colour.....Deep Purple Cosmetic Grade Mineral Pigment Powder Oxide DIY Lipstick Makeup 20g | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Deep-Purple-Cosmetic-Grade-Mineral-Pigment-Powder-Oxide-DIY-Lipstick-Makeup-20g-/110895009804?pt=AU_Face_Care&hash=item19d1db900c)
As gentian violet is not really used anymore for medicinal purposes it has become less available, maybe an alternative therapy type place might have some.

[Ropetangler]

Rob

I noticed my French Polishing, rubbing pad, when stored in a tightly sealed jar developed a lot of small black spots across the face of the cloth pad.
I was told this was a form of mildew, caused by the water in the metho.
About a year or so back I started using some "U Beaut" brand Australia manuf. "Hard Shellac" This has got a cross polymer, & is great stuff but once again does have a shelf life..
Its great for table tops & the like as its more heat & moisture resistant. I was also advised to use the more pure form of Metho with none of the water additive.
Things have gone well ever since.:2tsup:
I am sure Pro paint shops would have the better quality metho if you wanted to pursue.
Did a bit more trial with the homemade Prussian Blue Shellac mix today, as a marking out blue.
It does seem to work well.
I would like to try Gentian Violet, but it seems its not available in Australia these days.
Thanks for your interest.
regards
Bruce
All very interesting Bruce, I would never have thought that around 5% of water with 95% ethanol making up the ballance would be an enviorenment where mildew would survive and thrive. I suppose that they might only thrive when the alcohol had evaporated to a much lower level, making the water a much higher percentage than 5%.

Good to hear of your success with the prussian blue/shellac mix, in I take it an ethanol base (metho).

I have some of the same manufacturers white shellac, in a plastic 500ml. bottle which is now almost as hard as glass. It seems that the plasticisers have leached out, and I will need to be careful how hard I squeeze it to squirt out the contents, otherwise it may well fracture.

I had an idea that we had some gentian violet in the bathroom cabinet, but alas could not find it. It may be down at the shack. I did however find many of the old cures and remedies, "Friars Balsam", "Tincture of Iodine", "Pholcodine Linctus", "Mercurachrome" and various others. Now I imagine that Mercurachrome and perhaps even Friars Balsam may have possibilities as layout inks, - I should try them for water resistance and markability.

Ewan has come up with an alternative stain which may work, - when I looked I did find one Chinese supplier of crystal violet who would sell in 1kg amounts, but most had a minimum quantity of 500kg, now that would keep us all well supplied for our lifetimes I would imagine. I also found one other supplier in China who would supply minimum quantities down to 500gm of Gentian Violet, but it was the root of the gentian plant, - nothing to do with the blue substance we are looking for, so buyer beware. Cheers,
Rob.

[Stustoys]

Hi Rob,
I'd been looking around a little as I was thinking about trying to make some, but the talk of issues with the shellac and the fact it was going to cost me more than buyingit anyway put me off.
Gentian Violet Crystals 50gm (for Prawns/dye) | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/140578988457)
Is this the stuff?

Thanks guys its been an interesting read.

Stuart

[jhovel]

Gentian Violet should still be available in pharmacies. It is still occasionally used for some resistant kinds of fungal infections and is used in labs for staining cells.
Gentian Violet, Methyl Violet and Chrystal Violet are the same thing. In medical form it is not all that dense a colour.

Friars Balsam is tincture of benzoin USP ('tinc benz') and is golden-brown. Not sure it would be much use as a marking agent.

Mercurochrome or Merrbromin might be difficult to get now as it's been removed for healthcare use due to a fear of mercury poisoning..... it is a not particulalry dense colour and dark red or brown.

Joe

[Ropetangler]

Hi Rob,
I'd been looking around a little as I was thinking about trying to make some, but the talk of issues with the shellac and the fact it was going to cost me more than buyingit anyway put me off.
Gentian Violet Crystals 50gm (for Prawns/dye) | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/140578988457)
Is this the stuff?

Thanks guys its been an interesting read.

Stuart


Yes Stuart, as Joe has said, that is the stuff all right, but on his advice I will check my local chemist before going off shore. Mind you 50gm would be enough to make enough layout brew for all of us I would think.

On the use of Friars Balsam Joe, I know it is like the colour of rust, but as I recall, it forms a kind of skin which may behave a bit like a resin binding, to stop it just rubbing off with general handling.
I may have just had a kind of "Eureka moment" here, the thought has just occurred that resin, as in the stuff in resin cored solder, or the stuff violinists use on their bows, may be a useful binder to bind the crystal violet (or any other suitable stain) to the workpiece and even give some coolant resistance as well. I think that it would need to be used sparingly, otherwise it would be quite sticky, but a small amount might be just the trick. It dissolves readily in alcohol, making for a quick drying ink, and should respond to a metho cleanup. And I imagine available in all good musical instrument stores:wink:

[Ueee]

Another note on the gentian violet, the stuff Stu showed was green, the colour changes depending on the PH of the solution it is in. So depending on the PH of the shellac mix it may not be that great a colour.

[Ropetangler]

Another note on the gentian violet, the stuff Stu showed was green, the colour changes depending on the PH of the solution it is in. So depending on the PH of the shellac mix it may not be that great a colour.
Hi Ewan,
This shouldn't normally be an issue, as you say it is used as an indicator, and changes colour with a change in pH, but it changes from the yellow to the violet at around pH 1.6. About like the inside of a car battery, so at the usual pH levels of solutions sloshing around machine tools, it will be fine. If your gentian Violet layout ink starts to get yellow looking as your machining progresses, you'll need to finish quickly before the machine disappears:o
All jocularity aside, I think that the crystals are greenish yellow, but when disolved in water, the violet colour is produced. Joe will probably be able to inform us if the crystal violet (another generic name for Gentian Violet) will dissolve in straight ethanol, or whether it needs to be dissolved in water and the ethanol or in our case the metho is added afterward with shellac or resin perhaps already in solution in it. (the alcohol)
Rob.

[Stustoys]

Depending on what Rob finds out, if you're still interested I'm happy to buy 50gm and ship it off in 5 or 10 gm lots.

Anyone want to take a guess on how much you'd need to make 100ml?

Stuart

[jack620]

I have some GV. Will mix up some on the weekend and report back.

[Abratool]

Hi Bruce,
This powder looks about the right colour.....Deep Purple Cosmetic Grade Mineral Pigment Powder Oxide DIY Lipstick Makeup 20g | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Deep-Purple-Cosmetic-Grade-Mineral-Pigment-Powder-Oxide-DIY-Lipstick-Makeup-20g-/110895009804?pt=AU_Face_Care&hash=item19d1db900c)
As gentian violet is not really used anymore for medicinal purposes it has become less available, maybe an alternative therapy type place might have some.
Ewan
I did some more experimenting today, with the "U Beaut" brand Hard Shellac & a mix of Prussian Blue.
Put simply.... forget it. No where near as good as the regular old fashioned shellac.
Got washed away very quickly when a wash of soluble oil was made over it.
The Hard Shellac takes a long time to cure, so its out.
The best has been the regular shellac & blue.
Thanks for the link on the Purple Powder I noticed its " Solubility" was it disperses in oil.
So not to sure how it would work?
regards
Bruce

[YarrD]

I have had a note on my shed wall for years now saying Biro ink, metho and shellac flakes. Never tried it but got it from a 1950's Model Engineer mag.

[Ropetangler]

Well I went and visited my local chemist today and came away with some freebies and some good info. First the bad news. Gentian Violet (GV from now on) is no longer on the supply lists of 2 of the major pharmaceutical suppliers, the only 2 catalogues he had. He did suggest that I try a compounding pharmacy (a pharmacy which mixes and prepares medications on site), but the closest to me is 2 hours drive away, and another 2 back again.
From the back of his store room he found about 80ml of 1% aquious solution of GV and a small bottle of Crystal Violet or CV, from which GV is made by dissolving CV in water or ethanol and then diluting to a 1 or 2% CV strength, and around 10% alcohol. There was about 1 level teaspoon of CV in the jar, and he gave them to me to try.
He also told me that CV is only sparingly soluble in water, probably around 1 to 2 % would pull it up, but was very soluble in alcohol, which is great for us, because it will dry quickly, and also dissolve shellac or resin.
Stuart, you asked how much it might take to brew up 100ml of layout ink. Well I can say from some play this arvo, that it wil lbe a minute amount. Quite possibly less than a match head I would think in volume. The CV I got which was a very dark green in colour, not the yellowy green of the English stuff took only infinitesimal amounts to make up enough stain to cover a 6'' diameter plate I mixed it on. What I did was to tip a small amount onto an old ATM receipt, so that I could return it to the jar after photographing it. After I had returned it to the jar I noticed that the paper had minute traces left on it, so I placed around a teaspoon of metho on the plate and tapped the back of the paper to try to dislodge some of these fragments onto the plate. Well you couldn't see the particles leave the paper, but you had no trouble seeing them when they hit the metho. These are very fine particles, like talcum powder, and a little sure goes a long way.
I then tried adding some shellac. From a job I did a week or so ago I had some U Beaut White Shellac, now probably 4 years old, and I had further diluted some with metho mixed 1part shellac to 4 parts metho. I put about 5 drops of this further diluted solution onto the plate. Initially, I thought that I had a failure. Perhaps it was a difference in surface tension, but initially there was a repelling action from the shellac, and the blue colour retreated away from it. Because I had covered the plate, and I had only started with about 1 tsp. of metho, it was drying out, and when I added more it mixed readily and appeared to be quite uniform in covering power.
I let it dry off, and when dry, tried to mimic the marking out process by using a metal skewer as a scriber alongside a table knife for a straight edge. SOme rough kitchen engineering here:q
The result was that it appeared to mark up well, the scribed lines showed up well on the white ceramic plate, and even hot water made little or no impression on it. (Neither did Olive oil) I do not have coolant, but may make another test piece and take it into one of the local engineering shops to see if they will allow me to expose it to coolant, to see how it goes. It also needs to go on metal to check for covering power, and wetting too and perhaps other variables.
One of the difficulties in documenting the process is likely to be the measuring of the minute amounts needed. Perhaps making stock solutions, say 5gm of CV in one litre of metho, and then using say 2ml of that stock solution in another 100ml of metho to see how it looks. I think a simiar approach with the shellac or resin might work too. Finally, I would be checking your local chemists first, and if you have a compounding chemist close by, they would very likely have CV, and one person in each area who locates some will likely have enough for everyone else in that area too.
Universities are another source, and they also have nice scales and measuring gear, and from personal experience at the Burnie Campus of UTAS, where I know no-one who works there now, but in the past, I walked in to the front office, said I had a question for someone in the Chemistry Dept. I was directed to the then Head Man, who was most helpful. Of course YMMV. I will try to get some photos up in the next day or two
Rob.

[Ropetangler]

I have had a note on my shed wall for years now saying Biro ink, metho and shellac flakes. Never tried it but got it from a 1950's Model Engineer mag.
That would very likely work well YarD, as somewhere in the last few days I have read that Crystal Violet has been used as Biro ink, but I'm not sure if that info is current or not, but it would be worthwhile trying I would say.

[Ueee]

Thank you and well done Rob:2tsup:
As Bruce said, we may be re inventing the wheel, but what a journey! is the product violet or blue? I had no idea that the colour change of GV happened over such a large PH range, hence my concern about the colour before. No need for dissolving our machines it seems!
I will ask our local pharmacy if they have some in the next week or so.

[Abratool]

To all of the experimenters.
Thanks so much for the intensity of your work.
Yes, I enjoy "reinventing the wheel also" as there are lots of forms & designs of wheels.
The CV or Gentian Violet does seem to be the go, so no doubt more will come from that.
So far my best mix has been the Prussian Blue powder a little Metho & dissolved Shellac fluid.( French Polish)
Today I will evaluate it with some soluble oil to check its resistance. I did find that an initial clean of any oil on the metal & then a quick surface prep by rubbing with a piece of clean maroon Scotchbrite does provide a better key for the fluid
A very small amount of the marking fluid, goes a long way.
All the best & thank you all for your involvement.
regards
Bruce

[Ropetangler]

G'Day All, Thanks for the kind words Ewan and Bruce, I have enjoyed the experimentation and being able to contribute to this forum from which I gain so much knowledge and enjoyment from the other members. I too would like to thank all the other contributors, it is much easier to make progress with collaboration, and knowledge sharing rather than being a one man band.
Unfortunately I seem to have a bit of the dogs disease ATM and have had a pretty ordinary night with a dry unproductive cough. The boss being away is for the better I think, no point in her either catching what I have, or even having her nights sleep totally disrupted just because mine was. I found the Senega and Ammonia in the bathroom cabinet when I was looking for the GV a day or two ago, so have started dosing myself up. Now Senega and Ammonia is another of those old fashioned medicines, long out of patent, which is probably as good as any of the newer and more expensive cures, and I must say that I have only tasted a wet finger of it before, my now retired R.N. wife swears by its efficacy, and was the only user in this household, but my recollection of the taste was not at all good. Maybe if your crook enough, you lose the ability to taste, - I don't know, but the taste didn't seem as bad as I recalled. Anyway it has provided some relief, and hopefully I will be over it all in a day or so, but I plan to keep out of the cold as much as possible in the meantime.
Ewan, the colour is violet when it is still wet, but it dries to a deep blue colour I guess that a solution containing CV would have its own pH, I'm not sure what that would be, but my guess would be in the 5 to 7.5 range. Because the CV is bound up in the shellac or resin binder, it is unlikely to be able to react with the workpiece or our machines, so I don't see anything to concern us there. On the other hand, drops of GV when exposed to extremely acid conditions, will change from the violet at pH 1.6, so a yellow colour indicates that the pH is below 1.6. Above pH 1.6, the GV reverts to the violet colour.
Definitely worth asking at the local pharmacy. I'm sure that lots of them would be like my local one which probably still has Coca Cola syrup with cocain in it like the original brew is purported to have. Because they have to account for every drop of much of their stocks, it is probably easier to just put it on the back shelf, than it is to organise the paperwork for the disposal of it. Incidentally the CV thay I was given was manufactured or perhaps only marketed by F.H. Faulding from Adelaide. I'd nearly bet that they no longer make it now, that is if they still exist as a commercial entity.
Just checked the white pages, they're not in Adelaide, but have offices in Sydney and Melbourne. All the best fellers,
Rob

[Abratool]

Rob
I also have had the "Dogs Disease" now for about 3 weeks.
When I mentioned to my wife I had caught the Dogs Disease she asked me where that saying originated. Checking the Internet it appears to have started in the 1700s when a bloke on a horse noticed his dog vomitting, where as his horse didnt.
Anyway thats one possible answer.
I do not know if this is the same Dogs Disease that I have had thats crossed Bass Straight, but let me just say its a proper mongrel to get rid of.
Saps your energy & just does not want to go away.
Anyway, I dont have an answer for your problem in this regard. If you find a cure please lets know.
My test with the marking blue this morning looked encouraging, I had a piece of steel with the blue on it immersed in Sol oil, for a couple of hours, & it held up OK.
More tests to follow.
Also spent this morning drilling & reaming all of 2 holes 5/16" dia accurately through
some 7/8th" dia BMS stock.
Its always difficult to drill holes accurately, so I used my Hercus model O mill a wiggler centre finder & gauge blocks & dial indicator to move the cross feed to dead centre on the stock.
The results were pleasing, with the most accurate centred holes, achieved for a long time.:2tsup:
If Bob BT happens to be reading this he will appreciate, what I am on about.
Although with his Schaublin mill it would be a simpler operation.
regards
Bruce

[Ropetangler]

Good to hear of your success Bruce both with the layout ink, and machining accuracy. I have put any more experimenting on hold till I feel less of the chills and aches in the body. I'm not in a real bad way, just bad enough to not want to go outside in the cold which stirs up my coughing, and if I have a good hard cough, the top of my head feels like it's parting company. I might have a look for some paracetamol to see if that eases the aches a bit. I hope that you shake it off real soon and also that the Tassie version is not quite so long lasting.:D
Keep up the good work, and keep smiling,
Rob

[grunto]

Went to my local Total Tools today - they do stock Dy Mark products but not "Engineers Layout Ink". Will try and give Dy Mark a call tomorrow and find out who sell their products in Melbourne.

[jack620]

I just made up my first batch of layout ink. Since I don't have any shellac I used nitrocellulose lacquer (Mirotone) as the binder instead. Here's my mix:

About 1/10th teaspoon gentian violet powder dissolved in about 20mL metho.
Add lacquer thinner to make about 50mL.
Add about 1/2 teaspoon of lacquer and mix.

The result is shown below.

I only have slow lacquer thinner, so the ink is fairly slow to dry in melbourne winter. Putting it in front of the heater dried it in less than 5 minutes. When I get a chance I'll make up a batch with some general purpose thinner which should dry quicker. I'll also see if it can be done without the metho.

Chris

[bwal74]

Hi,

When I was at trade school, we mainly used a texta type marking fluid, similar to this:

MOLOTOW MASTERPEICE 760 - COVERSALL INK MARKER - 60MM WIDE NIB - PERMANENT | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MOLOTOW-MASTERPEICE-760-COVERSALL-INK-MARKER-60MM-WIDE-NIB-PERMANENT-/330752422913?pt=UK_Crafts_DrawingSupplies_EH&hash=item4d02617401#ht_1099wt_1037)

Not exactly the same but close. Ours where blue and refillable (I'm not sure what the brand was or what the marking out fluid was comprised off. It would eventually rub off but did the job). Easy to use.

Ben

[Ropetangler]

I just made up my first batch of layout ink. Since I don't have any shellac I used nitrocellulose lacquer (Mirotone) as the binder instead. Here's my mix:

About 1/10th teaspoon gentian violet powder dissolved in about 20mL metho.
Add lacquer thinner to make about 50mL.
Add about 1/2 teaspoon of lacquer and mix.

The result is shown below.

I only have slow lacquer thinner, so the ink is fairly slow to dry in melbourne winter. Putting it in front of the heater dried it in less than 5 minutes. When I get a chance I'll make up a batch with some general purpose thinner which should dry quicker. I'll also see if it can be done without the metho.

Chris
G'Day Chris, that seems to have worked ok, except for the slow drying. If the drying is acceptable when you change from the retarder thinner to the general purpose thinner, it would be more convenient, but tell me, - does it clean up easily, and do you need thinners to do the clean-up or will metho shift the dried blue? Is it as easy to remove as other layout inks that you have used and finally does it mark up as well as the usual brew?
I found the shellac /metho / CV based ink worked well in practice, the one question in my mind is about the shelf life we can expect. Given that I will only be using it very infrequently, a practical way to have a near unlimited shelf life may be just to leave the lid off, and have the metho evaporate off. Next time I would just have to add 20ml of new metho, give it a shake or a stir, and it should be good to go, but in the meantime the shellac shouldn't be deteriorating as it does when dissolved in alcohol.
Rob.

[jack620]

Hi Rob,
I've never used layout ink before, so I don't know how my brew compares to the real thing. It was very easy to mark with a scriber.

I doubt that metho will remove the ink since the Mirotone is pretty tough stuff. One advantage of this is that it would almost certainly be impervious to any coolant or lube you could throw at it. As I do a fair bit of spray painting I have a selection of thinners, prepsol and gun wash at my disposal, so removing the ink won't be a problem. I'll try removing it tomorrow and report back.

Not sure about the shelf life of your shellac based brew. I do know that the lacquer has an extremely long shelf-life.

Chris

[Ueee]

Nice one Chris:2tsup:
My only concern would be coolant proofness, NC has a pretty poor reputation for being water proof, i reckon we used to strip and respray 2 or 3 NC finished tables a month, just because of water rings.(with 2pac poly, also mirotone, its all i have really ever used) Easy to strip though......:D

[jack620]

Ewan,
I didn't know nitro had a bad rep for waterproofness. The Mirotone I use is a pre-catalised lacquer, so may be more resistant. I would be surprised if it didn't hold out long enough to finish a machining job.

[Ueee]

Ewan,
I didn't know nitro had a bad rep for waterproofness. The Mirotone I use is a pre-catalised lacquer, so may be more resistant. I would be surprised if it didn't hold out long enough to finish a machining job.

Is it NC or acid catalyst? I was only ever told and saw bad things with NC, so i have stayed away from it. I don't really have any experience with it other than stripping it off furniture, and seeing damage.

[Ropetangler]

Hi Rob,
I've never used layout ink before, so I don't know how my brew compares to the real thing. It was very easy to mark with a scriber.

I doubt that metho will remove the ink since the Mirotone is pretty tough stuff. One advantage of this is that it would almost certainly be impervious to any coolant or lube you could throw at it.
Chris
If it marks up well, I can see one advantage if metho does not soften and remove it Chris, that being the situation machining Aluminium. Metho is sometimes used as a coolant/tool lubricant, and it would be no good if it also removed the layout pattern as well. It may well be that we need several layout inks to cover the range of situations that we find ourselves in on occasion. Metho cleanup is convenient for times when you are machining using non alcohol based coolants, and it works well in my experience too, making an easy job of it.
Rob.

[jack620]

Rob,
I just checked and it comes off almost immediately with metho on a rag. I guess that precludes its use with metho as a coolant on Aluminium!

I've now got it immersed in water to see how it holds up.

Ewan,
It's Mirotone 3220 pre-catalysed lacquer.

[Ropetangler]

Well Chris, that's extinguished that brief little spark of brilliance on my behalf:p. We may have to resort to some of the Texta type markers, which I think are alcohol resistant in some varieties for use with metho coolant situations. They still need to be easily removed, just not with the metho.
Someone will come up with a good practical solution I'm sure.
I might bid you all good night as my coughing is getting to me a bit, tomorrow should bring some improvement, especially if we get the predicted sunshine:B That's not embarresment on my dial, it's the morning sun!
Rob.

[jack620]

After 10 hours immersed in water the layout ink is virtually unchanged, so it's fair to say it's waterproof for our purposes.

I've got no idea how to make a metho-proof ink. Maybe by adding more lacquer? Mirotone reckon 3220 has high solvent resistance. It certainly hasn't at the concentration I'm using.

Chris

[variant22]

For anyone that is interested in getting a liter of the Dy-mark layout fluid, I located some on "OZGraff" for ~$45. I have placed an order (they accept Paypal). The listing for it is here: Dy-Mark Engineers Layout Ink * @ OzGraff - Australian online specialty art store (http://ozgraff.com/product.php?id_product=274)

Can't say I am overjoyed about it being a graffiti supply shop, but it is the only place in Australia (that I have found) that has this available for order online.

[Ueee]

For anyone that is interested in getting a liter of the Dy-mark layout fluid, I located some on "OZGraff" for ~$45. I have placed an order (they accept Paypal). The listing for it is here: Dy-Mark Engineers Layout Ink * @ OzGraff - Australian online specialty art store (http://ozgraff.com/product.php?id_product=274)

Can't say I am overjoyed about it being a graffiti supply shop, but it is the only place in Australia (that I have found) that has this available for order online.

Ouch! The was somewhere else listed earlier in this thread same sort of cost, but thats pretty pricey, even if you'll probably never have to buy another bottle (unless you throw it all over your lathe and floor like i did:B)

[variant22]

Ouch! The was somewhere else listed earlier in this thread same sort of cost, but thats pretty pricey, even if you'll probably never have to buy another bottle (unless you throw it all over your lathe and floor like i did:B)

Your right. It is pricey, but I figure it will last for quite some time :)