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View Full Version : Advise on a Lathe Upgrade



robert4wd
13th August 2012, 08:10 PM
Hello Everyone
I am looking for some advice on upgrading my lathe. I have owned a 12"x7" Mini Lathe for the last three years. I use it to build small stationary steam engines which I run off compressed air. I have found that if you take light cuts you could do reasonable work. It is somewhat limited in that it does not have power feeds, though I have added a simple lead screw and a gear drive which allows me to do some limited thread cutting. I can also do some milling.
I have decided that I am going to build a 5” gauge locomotive. It a lot bigger project than anything I have attempted previously and after much discussion I have come to the conclusion that I need to upgrade my lathe. I have a budget of $2000. This has to cover both lathe and new tooling. A friend of mine recommended that Hare & Forbes AL-50GA bench lathe. I think that the lathe will do the job with care and modification. I am concerned that if I get seriously into building bigger steam engines I may want something heavier. I was wondering what the forum thought? Are there are other options I should consider?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Regards Robert

Ueee
13th August 2012, 08:20 PM
hi Robert,
personally i would buy a larger second hand lathe, but you then have the task of making sure the machine is running well before you do any work. With your budget a very good second hand lathe should be easily obtainable. Will you be keeping the mini or not?

morrisman
13th August 2012, 08:25 PM
Hi

This is my somewhat biased opinion . I would go for a Hercus 260 because of the backup of spare parts and the quality thing . These lathes are solid and they evolved from a basic 1930's design that soldiered on being manufactured by Hercus into the lathe 1980's ? With many 260's still serving owners after long years of use and abuse , these machines are proven winners .

The other choice would be a Myford 7 or Super 7 . Again , fantastic backup of spares and accessories and these are quality lathes . The favourite model makers choice for many years , Myford .

The Asian stuff worries me in terms of spares . If you need something , the chances are they have changed the design and you will be up the creek .

Mike

4-6-4
14th August 2012, 01:23 AM
Dear Robert. It depends on what size loco you aim to build. Having ben involved in the Melbourne Model engineers I have worked it out that if you attack any loco it take about 14 months per axle this is if you can keep at it. I agree that a loco like the Sweet Pea 4-0-4 tank engine could be built on a Hercus or a super seven. They should be available at about $1500. Keep an eye on the machinery part of this forum for bits and pieces. Also try and budget for a small mill drill, they are a bit of a problem when you put any tooling in them the work height above the table is reduced.
Next problem I used to make castings for Sweet Pea but no longer. This is a problem in this day and age. Sweet Pea could probably be built from stock if no castings were available. They would be from England at a price. I would recommend that you contact or join The Hornsby model railway club. This is where you will get good advice from Like minds. Stay away from the larger main line engines they take too long to build. The idea being that get the first one done then tackle some thing larger.
Sorry to prattle on but I have seen this only too frequently when some one starts a large job and it ends up under a bench some where.
If you want any model engineering advic send a PM and I will help.
Yours 4-6-4

tongleh
14th August 2012, 07:17 PM
I found the AL50G to be an excellent lathe. There are a plethora of sites dedicated to the AL50G (elsewhere called the 9X20 lathe), all with dozens of tips and mods to make the 9X20 more useful. I made many M/C parts, without any problems. master cylinders and fluid resevoirs spring to mind: master cylinders being made from 1" 316 S/S with a 3/4" bore, .45mm bleed holes and threaded with a 1" brass thread; the resevoirs being made from 50mm ally with an acme threaded cap, after some mods I was also able to turn up some L/H threads, it did an excellent job, highly recommended. At around the $1000 mark it's priced well; however, I found the 20mm spindle bore limiting and the drive belts very expensive and prone to breakage and slipping. There is a Titan clone, with electronic speed control, available through Titan, but it is considerably more expensive and quite possibly has the same drive belt. I've just sold my AL50G and replaced it with an AL250G, if you can get by with just metric threading, the AL250G is a reasonably good lathe: with a 25mm spindle bore and a geared head it ticked all the boxes for me. It will cut some imperial threads with a 34 tooth gear substitued for the stock 36 in the gear train, but still won't have the range of the AL50G. As with most Chinese lathes, they do require some tidying up, but that's half the fun...

PDW
15th August 2012, 09:01 AM
Hi

This is my somewhat biased opinion . I would go for a Hercus 260 because of the backup of spare parts and the quality thing . These lathes are solid and they evolved from a basic 1930's design that soldiered on being manufactured by Hercus into the lathe 1980's ? With many 260's still serving owners after long years of use and abuse , these machines are proven winners .

The other choice would be a Myford 7 or Super 7 . Again , fantastic backup of spares and accessories and these are quality lathes . The favourite model makers choice for many years , Myford .

The Asian stuff worries me in terms of spares . If you need something , the chances are they have changed the design and you will be up the creek .

Mike

I disagree. I regard both the Hercus and Myford as minimal machines, the Myford in particular being vastly overpriced and feeble in construction. I would never bother owning either and I recommend others do the same, that is unless you like making lots of tiny cuts and living with bed deflection etc. For the life of me I cannot understand why people hold these machines up as any exemplar of good design because they're not. I'll grant the build quality of Myfords is superb, but it's still a small, feeble flat bed lathe incapable of taking a decent cut. The fact that people have built wonderful models using one is a tribute to the people not the machine.

As for spares, come on. Look at the threads concerning Colchester and spares prices. Sure they *might* be available if you want to spend the price of a brand new Chinese lathe to replace a feed screw & nut. Personally - no.

My advice, get an older industrial machine in reasonable condition. If you don't want to wait, look closely at the Chinese machines, read the threads here and decide if you can live with the lack of attention to detail. I'd much, much rather have a D1-4 camlock Chinese lathe with a 12" swing, 24" between centres than a Myford or Hercus.

PDW

morrisman
15th August 2012, 03:51 PM
I disagree. I regard both the Hercus and Myford as minimal machines, the Myford in particular being vastly overpriced and feeble in construction. I would never bother owning either and I recommend others do the same, that is unless you like making lots of tiny cuts and living with bed deflection etc. For the life of me I cannot understand why people hold these machines up as any exemplar of good design because they're not. I'll grant the build quality of Myfords is superb, but it's still a small, feeble flat bed lathe incapable of taking a decent cut. The fact that people have built wonderful models using one is a tribute to the people not the machine.

As for spares, come on. Look at the threads concerning Colchester and spares prices. Sure they *might* be available if you want to spend the price of a brand new Chinese lathe to replace a feed screw & nut. Personally - no.

My advice, get an older industrial machine in reasonable condition. If you don't want to wait, look closely at the Chinese machines, read the threads here and decide if you can live with the lack of attention to detail. I'd much, much rather have a D1-4 camlock Chinese lathe with a 12" swing, 24" between centres than a Myford or Hercus.

PDW

Yes OK but

I was trying to make the point about spares . If you go the UK ebay site and do a seach on MYFORD, you will get something like 2000 to 3000 hits. The 7 and later Super 7 were manufactured since the early 1950's . I'm just so impressed that you can buy virtually any part for a 60 year old lathe , and the prices are reasonable . For examle A new cross fed screw and nut is easy to buy . I just wonder how many Chinese machines will have spares availabilty for that length of time



As for taking deep cuts . I struggled with my Sheraton 9 until somebody pointed out , just whack it in backgear and use a chipbreaker . I can take 1/4" deep cuts , or remove 1/2" , no problem , once I learnt the technique it was easy .

Mike

jack620
15th August 2012, 04:22 PM
I'll grant the build quality of Myfords is superb, but it's still a small, feeble flat bed lathe incapable of taking a decent cut.

Define 'decent cut'.

What a hobbyist calls decent would be entirely different to what a professional does. I can't speak for the Myford, but my Hercus when fitted with a crobalt bit or carbide insert can remove metal at an alarming (to me) rate.

simonl
15th August 2012, 04:33 PM
I disagree. I regard both the Hercus and Myford as minimal machines, the Myford in particular being vastly overpriced and feeble in construction. I would never bother owning either and I recommend others do the same, that is unless you like making lots of tiny cuts and living with bed deflection etc. For the life of me I cannot understand why people hold these machines up as any exemplar of good design because they're not. I'll grant the build quality of Myfords is superb, but it's still a small, feeble flat bed lathe incapable of taking a decent cut. The fact that people have built wonderful models using one is a tribute to the people not the machine.

As for spares, come on. Look at the threads concerning Colchester and spares prices. Sure they *might* be available if you want to spend the price of a brand new Chinese lathe to replace a feed screw & nut. Personally - no.

My advice, get an older industrial machine in reasonable condition. If you don't want to wait, look closely at the Chinese machines, read the threads here and decide if you can live with the lack of attention to detail. I'd much, much rather have a D1-4 camlock Chinese lathe with a 12" swing, 24" between centres than a Myford or Hercus.

PDW

Hi there,

I'm not going to make any suggestions regarding which lathe to buy, I'll let others do that. I was interested in your opinion of the Myford lathes. I have been buying MEW magazine for a couple of years now and anyone who reads this magazine would be forgiven for thinking that the Myford lathe is the best in the world! They seem to do numerous articles on this lathe and talk non stop about it. I just assumed it must have been to holy grail of lathes! I can only assume it's a British patriotic thing then? If you are correct then you have made my day! I could never afford or justify the price of one anyway!

Don't mean to hijack the thread!

Cheers

Simon

tongleh
15th August 2012, 05:41 PM
I've never owned a Myford or Hercus or any other of that ilk, but I have had 4 Chinese lathes and all have been excellent. A number of members have Myford or Hercus lathes and do truly excellent work on them. When brought back to life are a thing of beauty, if one can use that vernacular for a machine, Anorak Bob's lathe imediately springs to mind. I did have an AL300 for a few years and although Hafco hadn't distributed them for several years I had no problem in obtaining racks, lead screws, gears and the like (all broken due to user error I might add). All Chinese lathes are capable of producing excellent results with excellent accuracies straight out of the box, any tinkering afterwards can only make them even better. Perhaps parts may be a problem if their service life is to approach that of Hercus and the like, I guess that's the beauty of Chinese lathe prices. But, lets not forget when new, Hercus lathes cost more than a new car. Any lathe, regardless of country of origin is only as good as the distributors backup. If purchased from a reputable distributor, selling machines in reasonable numbers, they should provide good backup service. I would love a Hercus like Anorak Bob's, if only for aesthetics, but I couldn't justify the cost of the purchase or restoration.

Michael G
15th August 2012, 07:30 PM
I agree in part with what Simon and PDW have said, and one of the reasons that I was finding MEW less interesting was that continual focus on Myford lathes to the sometimes exclusion of other brands. With the closing of the Myford factory I suspect the focus will now shift to "Mini-lathes". Until I went to the UK I didn't understand this emphasis, but after seeing the size houses (and sheds) they have I can understand why they emphasise small equipment over reasonable sized stuff. (It's also a patriotism thing too)

One thing I want to toss into this discussion is the idea of importance of spares for a lathe. Why? Spares are nice to be able to get, but when you start looking at a lathe it is a self replicating machine. I have learnt a lot stripping mine down when it doesn't work and making up parts. While some people may not have the confidence initially to do this, it is a great way to learn. You can make new leadscrews and nuts on machines with buggered ones - it just takes some care and thinking. Yes, you might need to have a couple of goes, but it's practice if nothing else. Why else would you buy a lathe if not to turn parts? This forum is a great resource too - just have a look at any of the threads where someone has a problem and there are several people either offering advice or even physical help. It would be a rare problem on a machine that could not be solved with the collective wisdom of this forum.

I think if the most important reason for buying a lathe is that you can get spare parts for it then perhaps you haven't thought enough about what you can do with a lathe and what it is capable of. I am in favour of old machines. They are usually solidly made, can be repaired without too much trouble (unless you have a Monarch or Chipmaster speed control) and give you a wonderful sense of accomplishment when you have made them better than they were.

Michael

tongleh
15th August 2012, 07:39 PM
True enough, problems start however when you bugger a leadscrew, gear, halfnut, etc, when you have a buggered leadscrew, halfnut, gear, etc, how do you make a new one. The obvious answer to that is to make spares before they are needed, but which ones, where do you start?

Michael G
15th August 2012, 08:19 PM
That's where a forum like this helps - you can ask others to help. There have been a number of discussions on making up new half nuts; ACME thread can be bought from other sources; gears can be cut. Currently I have a couple of jobs on the go for others here. One day I hope that they will help out others.
You'd have to think too - if you buy a new lathe, are you really going to need to replace those parts in the next few years or should they last 5 or more, in which case the lathe may not be made any more. I have no faith that any stockist of cheap import lathes is still going to have spares in 10 years time.
My second lathe was a Taiwanese machine. I broke a part and had to buy a new one. The company who sold them wasn't even in business any more, so I had to go to a power transmission place to have a gear cut. These days I'd ask if anyone here could turn me blank and then I'd cut the teeth on the mill. Might cost me a favour but it would be returned one day.
Michael

PDW
15th August 2012, 08:42 PM
Define 'decent cut'.

What a hobbyist calls decent would be entirely different to what a professional does. I can't speak for the Myford, but my Hercus when fitted with a crobalt bit or carbide insert can remove metal at an alarming (to me) rate.

My Chipmaster, with its dodgy Kopp variator, has no problems at all with a 6mm depth of cut in 316 stainless or 4140, on 40mm dia, running at 600 rpm. TCT tooling naturally. Can't remember the feed rate but basically I jack both the speed & feed up until the chips come off blue and travel 4 feet before hitting the floor (my hair, my face, the wall and everything else around.....).

I'm not interested in engaging in a prolonged debate on this. My opinions have been formed by using the various machines discussed here. I don't give a damn about spares because I've rarely needed them and I've been able to make them when I did.

So, my advice to the OP is, hunt up a good heavy duty used lathe if you've time to do so, or if you want a bigger machine right now, go and buy a new one. If possible, get one you can see running under power and do some test cuts, make some measurements before paying over your money. Your budget is a little on the lean side, but you should still be able to get something reasonable new. Have fun & don't take any of it too seriously.

PDW

4-6-4
16th August 2012, 01:57 PM
Hang on chaps. The original post was what lathe with in a budget and this was stated was required to build a a 5 inch gauge locomotive. I suggested a 5 inch Sweet Pea which is a largish 0-4-0 narrow Gauge engine with a simple valve gear. The wheels are aboul 4 inch dia and could be made of steel. Gun metal cylinders could be purchased from the UK. The tread seems to have deteriorated into size of cuts and spare parts and Asian or local lathes. Please give the lad a go yours 4-6-4

Stustoys
16th August 2012, 02:58 PM
Hi 4-6-4

Sweet Pea which is a largish 0-4-0
Your first post that had me scratching my head, but I wasn't sure I knew what I was talking about. I'm thinking now it was a typo. 4-0-4?(that would be a carriage wouldn't it? :D)
Stuart

tongleh
16th August 2012, 03:14 PM
Well now, I am confused: Robert4wd asked which lathe would members of this forum suggest to build a 5" gauge loco. Everyone here has suggested a lathe, along with their pros and cons, I believe that is exactly what Robert4wd asked for. I can't find anywhere in his original post asking what gauge or type of loco to build, please feel free to tell me if I am wrong and a silly old fool to boot? :doh:

cba_melbourne
16th August 2012, 03:51 PM
I just assumed it must have been to holy grail of lathes! I can only assume it's a British patriotic thing then? If you are correct then you have made my day! I could never afford or justify the price of one anyway!


Myford, Wabeco, Emco, Prazimat, Ceriani.... these lathes were and are so popular in Europe because of their small size and LIGHT WEIGHT. If you lived in an apartment on the 5th floor, you could not haul up anything heavier than a 7" Myford or an 8" Emco. Also you could not run anything more powerful in your spare bedroom without risking being lynched by your neighbours below and above. In Europe most people rent, its not like here where most people own a house with Garage and a quarter acre. The Myford 7" is about the very largest lathe suitable for these conditions. And being a gap bed, it can handle flywheels of up to 10" diameter. Not bad for a lathe weighing some 80kg net. The Emco 8" weight is only about 45kg net, compared to the AL-50A from Hare&Forbes which is a clone of the Emco but made in China and twice as heavy and still less rigid....
Also consider this: for no other lathe than Myford has been that many articles written, that many accessories be designed and described how to build, and that many models were designed to be built on it.

To the OP: if you are not restricted by size and weight, go larger. A used 9 or 10" machine like a Hercus in good condition is a fine choice for what you want to do and for your budget. Remember the tools can quickly cost again as much as the lathe.

If you prefer a new Chinese lathe, I would recommend a 10" and bigger models. All Chinese lathes below 10" swing require far too much work to become really useful. If you plan on building a loco, you may not want to spnd the first 100 hours fixing a lathe.

But you already have a minilathe. Then there is no hurry. You can wait until your dream lathe pops up on eBay or elsewhere. Maybe a Myford, maybe an Emcomat, maybe a Hercus 260, maybe an 11" or 13" Chinese lathe, these would all make fine machines for you. Research the market and the prices, so you can spot a bargain when it pops up. Meantime many parts of your loco can be made on your existing minilathe. Chris

pipeclay
16th August 2012, 06:05 PM
Those numbers represent wheel configuration for locomotives,the 1st lot are leading wheels,the 2nd driven/driving wheels and the 3rd are the following/trailing wheels,in this case there are no front or rear wheels just the drivers/traction sets.

I wouldnt worry about someone talking about different classes of model loco in this thread,it may have nothing to do with the initial post but thats par for the course with this forum.

4-6-4
16th August 2012, 07:50 PM
Greetings Chaps. Roberts first post did mention a 5 Inch gauge loco. I suggested Sweat Pea because it is a manageable loco on a smaller lathe. Yes it was a Typo its an 0-4-0 with Hackworth valve gear. As steam locos go its at the simplest end of the range. They are a joy to drive and to play with. Yours 4-6-4

4-6-4
16th August 2012, 11:24 PM
Dear Robert, furhtur to the above Drawings and castings for Sweet pea are available from Wayne Roberts Model Engineering Supply .au He is a Member at the Tullamarine Club.The price of a full set of drawings is $100.00 I did not go through the castings but they all seem to be there. One drama is the tube for the boiler and firebox but they could be rolled and but strapped under the guidance of a club boiler inspector.
Hope this is of help 4-6-4

bollie7
17th August 2012, 11:45 AM
this is currently on ebay
McMillan V Bed Lathe 600mm centres, 140mm centre height, 25mm hollow spindle | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/McMillan-V-Bed-Lathe-600mm-centres-140mm-centre-height-25mm-hollow-spindle-/180950353314?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item2a217b45a2)

these are not a bad machine. I have almost the same as this.

this one might be worth a look but it appears to have a bit of "flight rust" on it. I think he's asking a bit much for it in the apparent condition its in though. Not that far from you.
Metal Lathe | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Metal-Lathe-/180952141664?pt=AU_Hardware&hash=item2a21968f60)


hercus 260 - its either been repainted or never been used
Hercus 260 Metal Lathe | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hercus-260-Metal-Lathe-/110936100630?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item19d44e8f16)


bollie7

welder
17th August 2012, 03:01 PM
I have a MC millan lathe I like it and its a very capable lathe but one thing I really hate about it is the duel imperial and metric hand wheels. If I was buying a new lathe I would look at one like this.


Lathe - Castle Hill - NSW - $ 1,700.00 (http://m.tradingpost.com.au/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/Telstra-TradingPost-Portable-Site/en_AU/-/AUD/ViewItemDetailPage-Start?ProductID=&ShortURLCategoryPath=&AdNumber=TP005138826&ItemIndex=1&intref=&OmnSearchType=Finder&QueryTerm=lathe)

19brendan81
17th August 2012, 05:08 PM
Despite the fact that I would happily defend a chinese lathe (I have one and it is superb) I think the best advice in this thread is to buy a second hand one of your preferred ethnicity. $2000 will get you an excellent second hand machine which probably will have all the features my machine has at a third of the price (mine is an AL340D).

I would be looking for something with...

1) quick change gearbox. I couldnt stand the thought of having to change gears every time I want a new feed rate
2) large spindle bore so you can feed decent stock straight down the cuts
3) mass - but not so much you need a forklift to move it around. Mine can be handled with an engine lift.

If you snare a bargain and get something that suits the ticket for $1500 I would be spending the remaining $500 on a DRO. I dont think I could ever go back to machining without one....i absolutely love mine.

robert4wd
21st August 2012, 09:03 PM
Thanks everyone for your advise.

I received the plans for my dream model today a C38 4-6-2 Streamlined. They are somewhat of a reality check. Its much more complicated than anything I have attempted and frankly beyond my present skill level. I am going to take the advise of 4-6-4 and join a club. I plan to visit several in the Sydney area. I hope they will mentor me to build something simplier such as the sweet pea or something similar. I am prepared to give back in any way I can.

On the lathe upgrade I am going to look second hand and see if I can get at least basic tooling included. I can see the point about Hercus, etc but I also feel that the chinese type will also do my job admittedly with tuning but probably wont have the same life span servicing multiple owners. I will be advertising my present lathe on the forum once I have a new one set-up. I'll make sure I send a PM to the guy that expressed an interest in its future.

Once again thanks the advise it is much appreciated

Regards
Robert