The Centricator - A Co-Axial Indicator from Munich

[Anorak Bob]

This is an early version of the Centricator, it appears to be from 1962 if the printing date on the accompanying instruction booklet is anything to go by. They were first made in 1954.

Later versions incorporated a dial indicator behind a transparent enclosure which made the device longer. The version shown below was usually supplied with a 1 Morse taper and a 16mm cylindrical sleeve that fitted over the taper. This one has a 3 Morse arbor engraved THIEL. Thiel made some beautiful milling machines.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/german-precision-pair-thiels-134273/#post1306815

In use, body rotation is prevented by tethering it with the string and magnet supplied. A neat feature is the ability to use different indicators. With the attachments supplied, most setups can be checked. I will contact Michael Deckel GmbH, the current manufacturers of the Centricator, to find out if the 3 Morse arbor can be removed. Otherwise I'll have to buy a bigger mill.

The device is exquisite, its finish is more like something you would associate with a camera rather than a tool. Have a look at images of an Arriflex S16, another product of Munich.

Simply stunning stuff!

BT

[Stustoys]

Hi BT
As luck would have it, MT3 will fit in my mill nicely ;)
The string is a nice idea, I might steal that one.
Now you just have to do the "flip up side down" test.

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

I might have come unstuck Stu. In my futile attempt to unscrew the arbor I removed the three screws shown in the diagram below. The page title in the instruction booklet translates to calibrate the instrument. Should have used Goggle Translate before I picked up a screwdriver.:doh:

I am hoping that Joe can explain the method of recalibration described in the attached pages.

BT

[Greg Q]

I met with Bob last Friday in a Perth cafe for show n tell. He brought this centricator. I must have looked like Mr Potato Head with the "O" mouth stuck on. It is gobsmakingly delicious in person, and now I have tool envy. It makes my Blake look not quite German enough. Not that that's a bad thing, I hasten to add. But still...

Greg

[Greg Q]

Like this...

[harty69]

Hi Bob
welcome to the centricator club they are a beautiful device
I picked up this one a few months back but didnt post it on here as i thought it might upset greg seeing as it came from the suburb next to him and it only cost me 175 buck (sorry Greg)

220489
220490
220491

cheers
Harty

[Greg Q]

No no, I'm fine with that. No. Really.

:upset:

[Stustoys]

If its next to Greg its close to me!
:upset::upset:

How did that one get passed us Greg?


Will be interesting to see what you find out about the calibration screws Bob, cant really get my head arond what they would be for. I have a couple of ideas but they sound stupid even to me lol


Stuart

[Hunch]

Picked up a later version ages ago very cheap, < $100 if I recall - missing the extension tube and the levelling probe. Dollars required to buy those bits, make it less cheap:!.....and there's the small problem of a fixed 40 taper arbor and buttress thread.

One of these days might try to cut off the thread and find out if it's through hardened, to make it somewhat useful - electronics will have to suffice for now.

[Anorak Bob]

I might have come unstuck Stu. In my futile attempt to unscrew the arbor I removed the three screws shown in the diagram below. The page title in the instruction booklet translates to calibrate the instrument. Should have used Goggle Translate before I picked up a screwdriver.:doh:

I am hoping that Joe can explain the method of recalibration described in the attached pages.

BT

Joe very kindly translated those pages. Here are the instructions. Glen "Brian Lara 400" has the same Centricator and he also has the German instruction booklet. This may also be of benefit to Glen.

Adjusting the device


At delivery from the factory, the device may show a minute internal runout (≤2µm). This runout can be seen in both direction and magnitude on the gauge by rotating it in a spindle (without touching a test piece) as a small visible movement of the needle. While testing a work piece, this runout can be integrated in the test result in position and magnitude. For high precision measurements, this can result in extraordinary accurate test results.

Should the internal runout become greater than 3µm (by inexpert handling) the device must be readjusted.
This readjustment can be achieved by users themselves with a certain amount of care:

The device is mounted in a vertical spindle. A screw driver can be inserted through the bore for the locating (anti-rotation) plug and each of the adjustment screws can be corrected in turn. Firstly however, the screw location and numbers should be marked on the cover with a pencil (see Fig. 3). For adjustments, a comparator or dial gauge with 1µm divisions should be used, e.g. a small Millimess. The total internal runout can be checked by slowly turning the machine spindle in one direction only (let’s assume 3µm). At the position of greatest negative deflection the spindle is stopped and the adjustment screw at or closest to the anti-rotation socket should be lined up with this hole. By inserting a screw driver through this hole and turning this screw a minute amount clockwise, the runout will be reduced. The precise change can be monitored on the gauge and should not exceed half the value of the total runout. (In the assumed error case around 1µm). This sequence should be repeated until the runout is less than 2µm. If the adjusting screws have become too tight to turn, choose the position of the greatest positive runout value and adjust the nearest screw anti-clockwise a minute amount. The runout will be reduced in an equivalent way as the above negative deflection procedure.

Thank you Joe.:2tsup:

BT

[Greg Q]

You have a one micron indicator I'm sure. If not though, my Cary is yours for the asking.

GQ

[Anorak Bob]

You have a one micron indicator I'm sure. If not though, my Cary is yours for the asking.

GQ

Yes Gregory, I have the appropriate 1um Millimess. I should take you up on the little Cary. I could pretend I was watching a petite télévision.:U

I received a prompt response from Michael Deckel GmbH. Sadly the question I asked regarding arbor removal was not addressed.:no:

Dear Bob,

after a look at your photos, we must inform you that this is a CI-model. The production of this model has stopped in 1969 (!), so we don't have any spare parts or mounting shanks for this model any more.
If you want I can offer you a new CIII Centricator, but for your CI there is nothing we can do.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / with best regards
Susanne Balling
Sachbearbeiterin Vertrieb
Tel.: +49-881-688-521l Fax.: +49-881-688-59
Michael Deckel Vertriebs KG
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Am Öferl 17-19 ● 82362 Weilheim
Registergericht München HRA 44 993 ● Ust.-Ident.Nr.: DE131662972 ● Steuer Nr.:168/168/51908 ● FA Weilheim i.OB.
Persönlich haftender Gesellschafter und Geschäftsführer: Michael Deckel, Bad Heilbrunn
Allgemeine Geschäftsbedingungen / General Terms and Conditions: www.michael-deckel.de/index.php?page=AGB (http://www.michael-deckel.de/index.php?page=AGB)

To put the offer of a new Centricator C III into perspective, here is a link to one currently on offer from Franz Singer. It is used.
Centricator C III 0,002mm für Deckel Fräsmaschine | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Centricator-C-III-0-002mm-fur-Deckel-Frasmaschine-/120671298658?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item1c1891e462)

BT

ps. The Singer link is not for GQ's benefit as Gregory is fully aware of Franz's stratospheric pricing.

[Greg Q]

When I approached Dapra in the States about motor brushes for my older Biax they said " impossible", but offered me 10% off a $3000 newer model. Thankfully a dozen brushes (eight lifetimes) were available ex-China for $8.

Greg

[Greg Q]

BTW is there a patent number anywhere on that thing? Perhaps patent drawings may reveal the arbor attachment scheme.

Gregoire

[Anorak Bob]

Gregoire,

Une idée mérite d'être poursuivie.:2tsup:

Merci

Robert.

[steran50]

HI:),
WOW that Centricator is 100 Times more Nicer than My Shars Co- Axial Indicator, Now I have Tool Envy.

[Anorak Bob]

BTW is there a patent number anywhere on that thing? Perhaps patent drawings may reveal the arbor attachment scheme.

Gregoire

Close Gregory. I'll keep looking.

Espacenet - Original document (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=3914869&KC=&FT=E)

BT

[jhovel]

Now that you have a name at Deckel to write to, I'd just try again with the simple question of how to remove the protective cover surrounding the mount.
If you don't give up easily, I'm sure they will start to be helpful just to stop you pestering.....
Joe

[Greg Q]

Bob, I was able to determine that the Centricator trade mark was issued to an F. Eckert & Co. In Upper Bavaria in 1956, but a patent search under petitioners of that name yoelds zilch. It must have been filed by invemtor's name or perhaps protected only by Brevet. I seem to recall that the German patent office changed sometime around 1949 or 1950 so it should be there if a patent was filed.

I also searched "zentricator" without expecting to find it.
Greg

[BrianLara400*]

Hi BT,
Thanks for the PM - thats a particularly nice example you've found there;

I didn't realise the sliding bottom section could be left on for storage in the box, I had been disasembling mine as I didn't think it could fit - Your case appears to be a fractionally different layout to mine. My arbour is a No#1 MT from memory + the 16mm dia straight adaptor.
I'll try to find a publication date in the booklet, my copy is actually printed in French (though I'm no linguist and could be wrong on this, but yeah pretty sure it's French).

Any chance of some closeup's of the dial Indicator?, the original that would have belonged to my Centricator has been replaced at some point long ago with a little Mitutoyo.

And thanks very much Joe for the translation, I'll print a copy and keep it with the book - I'm certain it will come in handy at some point.

And for your reference Greg & Bob, I didn't end up getting that FP4m that I was looking at and talked to you two about a while back. It was a lot of money and it came on offer at a really inconvenient time when we had a massive log jam of work. But anyway, I'll keep looking

[Anorak Bob]

I will dust off the camera tomorrow for you Glen.

Does the domed cover at the base of the arbor on your Centricator unscrew?

Shame about the big Deckel.:no:

BT

[Machtool]

I will dust off the camera tomorrow for you GlenDo you want to borrow the Melbourne? We don't need it back until Saturday:D

Phil.

[Anorak Bob]

It is a temptation Phil given that Stu has no need for it on his rest run.:U

[BrianLara400*]

Does the domed cover at the base of the arbor on your Centricator unscrew?


If It does unscrew, not easily.
Perhaps it has "flight-rusted" in place?

Has the cover on yours come loose? I dont want to unduelly force it as I imagine that it would mark/dent easily, It does look logical that It should come-off somehow.

There is a "10/63" marking on the rear cover of the booklet.
Would that indicate October, 1963?

[Anorak Bob]

If It does unscrew, not easily.
Perhaps it has "flight-rusted" in place?

Has the cover on yours come loose? I dont want to unduelly force it as I imagine that it would mark/dent easily, It does look logical that It should come-off somehow.

There is a "10/63" marking on the rear cover of the booklet.
Would that indicate October, 1963?

There's no corrosion Glen, it's in near flawless condition. The protective cover is tight, too tight to move with fingers.

The booklet I have has Druckschrift-Nr. 1105d - 7.62 printed on the rear cover. Suggests maybe a change in the booklet's contents by the time your's was printed?

I followed Joe's advice and sent Susanne Balling at Michael Deckel GmbH another email. She replied less than half an hour later saying that a fellow who knew about these old instruments was returning from holidays next week and she would forward him my questions. Susanne said she would reply next week. German efficiency.:2tsup:

BT

[Anorak Bob]

Well, rather than wait for the Melbourne I dusted off the Nikon.

The dial is 40 mm in diameter.

BT

[BrianLara400*]

There's no corrosion Glen, it's in near flawless condition. The protective cover is tight, too tight to move with fingers.

The booklet I have has Druckschrift-Nr. 1105d - 7.62 printed on the rear cover. Suggests maybe a change in the booklet's contents by the time your's was printed?

BT

Thanks for the pictures BT, much appreciated.


I didn't mean that there was corrosion on mine, that "flight rust" comment was more for Gregs benefit, i.e give him a stir and check that he was still awake. :;
Largely mine is in very good condition, the black plasticised textured skin has flaked off in some small areas around corners/edges etc. I would like to know how that stuff is applied.

Your manual seemd to contain all the same diagrams as mine (as would be expected), by 1963 the front cover has the centicator text on a black background, as for the descriptions I can't say how closely the text matches (French).

[Anorak Bob]

Glen,

Looking at the paint, it looks like the standard wrinkle finish black paint applied to a whole host of machines, cameras, instruments etc from that era. In my mind I still reckon it's a great finish.

BT

[Anorak Bob]

Dear Bob,

my collegue just checked, it's not possible to remove the mounting shank from the Centricator (we have one old Centricator here where he tried). The mounting shank and a kind of ball bearing are in one piece, so it cannot be demounted.
We recommend to purchase a new Centricator, if you are interested I will send you a quotation.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / with best regards
Susanne Balling
Sachbearbeiterin Vertrieb
Tel.: +49-881-688-521l Fax.: +49-881-688-59
Michael Deckel Vertriebs KG
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Am Öferl 17-19 ● 82362 Weilheim
Registergericht München HRA 44 993 ● Ust.-Ident.Nr.: DE131662972 ● Steuer Nr.:168/168/51908 ● FA Weilheim i.OB.
Persönlich haftender Gesellschafter und Geschäftsführer: Michael Deckel, Bad Heilbrunn
Allgemeine Geschäftsbedingungen / General Terms and Conditions: www.michael-deckel.de/index.php?page=AGB (http://www.michael-deckel.de/index.php?page=AGB)

[Ueee]

It will fit my mill and little lathe.....:D Now thats an easy fix!

[Bryan]

Go on, get a quote, we all need a giggle. :)

[Stustoys]

Would likely be cheaper for Bob to buy my mill and ship it back as hand luggage :D