New (Old) Sheraton CUB Lathe

[Nozzle]

HI all


I have put the cart before the horse and came across a Sheraton CUB lathe that runs on three phaseI only have single phase at my house in central Geelong Victoria - the current specs I have is that it is a 2hp power motor that runs at 1425 rpm and requires 415 volts it also notes
"THE ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT
incorporates separate controls for the
main motor and coolant pump with
magnetic contactors, thermal overloads
and no volt release. An
emergency off switch is mounted
on an attractive plastic panel and
enclosed in a waterproof box, the
independent isolating switch is mounted
at the rear of the machine." any help with powering it would be appreciated. RegardsWayne

[PDW]

HI all


I have put the cart before the horse and came across a Sheraton CUB lathe that runs on three phaseI only have single phase at my house in central Geelong Victoria - the current specs I have is that it is a 2hp power motor that runs at 1425 rpm and requires 415 volts it also notes
"THE ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT
incorporates separate controls for the
main motor and coolant pump with
magnetic contactors, thermal overloads
and no volt release. An
emergency off switch is mounted
on an attractive plastic panel and
enclosed in a waterproof box, the
independent isolating switch is mounted
at the rear of the machine." any help with powering it would be appreciated. RegardsWayne

Looks like a nice chunky machine with taper attachment, if in good condition I'd grab it & worry about sorting the power later.

Short form, all the existing electrical controls will have to go (at least be disabled) if you use a 240V single phase to 240V 3 phase VFD. If you can get the electrical people to give you 415V 3 phase, life is a lot better/simpler. I've done it 3 times so it's not impossible, merely some money.

If you do go the 240V route with VFD, second issue is swapping over the motor leads for 240V. You might be lucky & do it with jumpers inside the control box, or not. All depends on how the motor was made in the first place. There are ways around it if the motor manufacturer wasn't that thoughtful...

Best advice is to re-read the threads on installing & configuring VFD's to do this. Many have gone before and can offer good advice. For that lathe, it's probably worth the aggravation if you really can't/won't get 415V power hooked up.

PDW

[Ropetangler]

G'day Wayne, I will try to get you started, but there are other more knowledgeable members here who will hopefully chime in with some of the finer points.
We really need a bit more info from you for a start.
Your motor is 415V 3 phase, but it may also be able to be connected in Delta mode to run on 240V 3 phase. This info is usually on the specification plate, so a photo of that, and also a photo of the cable connection terminals, in the connection box on the motor will usually tell us if this is possible.
Also if you are able to ascertain if the contactors and solenoids have 240 volt coils, you will know if anything needs replacing to convert to 240 volt supply. Finally check your coolant pump to see what voltage it runs on.
You will have a bit to do, but your lathe looks pretty solid, and doesn't appear to be used and abused, so it could be well worth it.
When you get back with the info, we will be better able to suggest a plan of attack. Good luck,
Rob
PS. Due to my slow typing PDW, Peter has beaten me to it with an answer for you Wayne, and I would agree with all he has advised you in his post. In some areas the power authorities will connect you to 3 phase for minimal cost if you say you plan to put in a 3 phase heat pump. I understand that there is no check to see if the heat pump is installed. Obviously YMMV.
Rob

[toolman49]

Hi Wayne,
Looks a good solid beast, I particularly like the chuck/centre rack at the end of the bed, that's an idea that is worth stealing.
Regards,
Martin

[Nozzle]

Thanks for your replies and guidance –

PDW and Rob took your suggestions - So rang around today to see about options –

The first option

VFD and motor rewind

Spoke to an excellent bloke at Geelong Rewinds (good doing business face to face) - talked about options and said he could change the motor from delta to star for about $100 (I thinks that how it went I was like an excited kid in a lolly shop listening to every second word and not concentrating as I found someone interested in my problem – just like you blokes) and to me he knew what he was talking about – he suggested with the coolant pump he could put a capacitor in as the motor only has to turn a pump at one speed and it is not the significant (again I was excited and only got every second word) – but did show him a pic of the switchboard and said there was a lot going on there - he was very helpful and said to ring anytime for advice – there are still champion blokes in the world.

The second one

A transformer convertor and they came back with this statement

Suggest you will need a full converter. (Not just a transformer)

WHY? : You have other items running off the 3 ph 415v supply. (Pumps + contactors etc.).

It is not possible to run your motor off 240v 3 phase you need 415v 3 phase.

So you cannot use a cheaper “S” module.

This means you need a transformer plus a ME electronic module plus idler motor enclosed in a housing..

Or we could supply it as loose components you house them.

The enclosed price is:Budget price: $1650+GST+Freight

Thank god it was their Budget Price LOL!!!

The third option

So thought I would ring Powercor as suggested to get 3 phase on in house - tried to fill out the forms to get another budget quote but am lost in the amperage estimates - still will go down this path to find out pricing - after filling out forms still have to wait 20 days for them to come and have a look - you would think with all these smart meters and technology that they would just be able to punch it to their system and up she would come - but I must say that the lady on customer service was excellent in guiding me through some of the stuff!!!

The fourth option

So being a pensioned off soldier (after being shot at and blown up you seem to get more determined LOL!!!) – I though bugger this I will look at a generator – well 1200 bucks and up for the smallest I could get – silenced so neighbours couldn’t hear it – sounded great until I found out it was over a meter in length and about 750 high and consumed 65 litres of diesel in an eight hour period and that equates to $97.50 @ 1.50 a litre and that’s without fudging ongoing maintenance costs– and Murphy’s Law will tell you just as you need it the things will run out of juice (even the best prepared battle goes astray once Murphy enlists or usually volunteers his help) or will bugger up – also I reckon the noise would be a problem as our new neighbours have a newborn and would hate to find the wrath of a new tired mother!!!



So as this all plays out I have to move the girl to the garage weighing approx... 820 odd kilos – Have to find a crane truck to get it done – one good win is that I have a small street running down the back of the house where the garage is located and he should be able to lift straight into place where I want it.

Well I have attached some more pics as suggested read all the VFD and 3 phase links and think I have overload (more confused than the day I was born) – but I have not forgotten my determination and what my Grandfather taught me the 6 ‘P’s – Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance.

So some may ask why I was not prepared!!! – I had been researching lathes for over 6 months and well you should never look a gift horse in the mouth for $1200 and close to home at the local TAFE and within my DVA and wife allowed pension budget – I know I can make it work – Sorry it is going to work!!!!!


So I will keep you informed

Regards

Wayne


PS - Martin thanks for that description on the chuck holder - I thought it was a Stubby Holder LOL!!!

[morrisman]

Spoke to an excellent bloke at Geelong Rewinds (good doing business face to face) - talked about options and said he could change the motor from delta to star for about $100 !!!

Hi Nozzle

That's a nice solid lathe, and it was made in Melbourne as well :2tsup:

I think you meant to say : change the motor from star to delta , not the other way around. You want Delta mode , its already in star , going by the label on it .

The VFD fitting process isn't that complicated . The actual programming of the VFD is the hardest part eg, learning the commands :B

Mike

[nadroj]

A transformer convertor and they came back with this statement

Suggest you will need a full converter. (Not just a transformer)

WHY? : You have other items running off the 3 ph 415v supply. (Pumps + contactors etc.).

It is not possible to run your motor off 240v 3 phase you need 415v 3 phase.

So you cannot use a cheaper “S” module.

This means you need a transformer plus a ME electronic module plus idler motor enclosed in a housing..

Or we could supply it as loose components you house them.

The enclosed price is:Budget price: $1650+GST+Freight

Thank god it was their Budget Price LOL!!!



Is that for a rotary phase converter? Real 3 phase would cost over 10 grand for me, as it'd mean a power pole transformer upgrade. I bought a Phasechanger RPC for about $2000, but haven't used it yet, just tested on a 3ph motor - it works.
I went that way because of installation simplicity. No need to change anything on the machines you want to drive - just plug in the RPC to a 15A power point, plug lathe into the RPC and away you go. I don't have the drawbacks of VFD, don't need variable speed anyway (hey, the lathe's got mechanical speed control!) or the wiring changes and possible cooling issues. Eventually I'll know if it was a smart choice to go RPC, but I sorta trust the old school solutions.

If interested, there's a project in Silicon Chip magazine, on making your own single to 3ph drive, up to 2HP.
Silicon Chip Online - 1.5kW Induction Motor Speed Controller, Pt.1 (http://siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_112812/article.html)

Jordan

[toolman49]

G'Day Wayne,
The flat tray on the top of the headstock is for your esky.
Regards,
Martin

[Greg Q]

The often overlooked huge advantage of a VFD is that you get to bypass ALL of the lathe's electrical control panel. You'll need a disconnect switch for the VFD, it will handle all the other switching required for the spindle motor. You can wire the stop switches into the VFD directly, but you don't want anything between the VFD and the motor.

The capacitor on the pump motor strikes me as OK...but you may find that a suds pump is more trouble than its worth on a home lathe. I don't have an opinion either way on that score.

Greg

Oh...a friend in Melbourne got three phase hooked up for $1300 a few years ago. At the same time I built an RPC for a couple of hundred, but it made 240v three phase. You'd need a step-up transformer to produce 415 three phase if you wanted to persist with the lathe's existing control wiring. Such transformers can be found from time to time, but they are heavy and expensive unless you find one in an industrial junkyard.

[nadroj]

I guess VFD would be a good option for when a machine's original switchgear is broken or missing.
$1300 for real 3phase! Probably ten times as much for me. :(

Jordan

[Ueee]

Nice score Nozzle:2tsup:
I'm not much help on the VFD thing as i have 3 phase. Just to really annoy the other's, at the time actew(local electricity company) were doing the cabling and meterbox upgrades free....all i had to pay for was the electrician to run it into the shed!

Martin, Where do the chippies go:?

[Greg Q]

My own 1965 lathe's control wiring had perished and its unique variable speed system also unrestorable. A VFD would have been a no-brainer for me but for other complications.

Greg

[Ropetangler]

G'Day again Wayne, you certainly sound enthusiastic to get things happening. If possible can you photograph the inside of the connection box on your motor -( the little box on top of the motor as shown in your last picture). We need to see the arrangement of the connection terminals in that box, so you will have to unscrew the cover and photograph the terminals and most likely the links between them. As Mike has already said, your motor is already connected in Star mode, that little upside down 'Y' alongside the figures 3.4 indicates 'Y' or aka star mode, - the alternative would have been delta mode which is indicated by the Greek letter delta, an equilateral triangle ∆. If the motor is 415V in star mode, it will be 240V when changed to delta mode. Usually but not always all the connections to all the windings are bought outside the motor to this terminal box, and little brass links are set between the individual terminals to wire it in star, or just by rearranging them it can be changed to delta. If this is the case with yours, there will be no rewiring of the motor needed to use a vfd, but there will need to be changes made to the motor controls on the lathe. This is because VFDs don't like their outputs being switched between the VFD and the motor, so you must tell the VFD what you want it to make the motor do, and let it do the job. So the emergency stop button, does not switch the power off between the VFD and the motor, instead it tells the VFD to stop turning the motor, and often it provides power for dynamic braking to make a really rapid stop. The forward and reverse switching works in a similar manner, and the VFD is controlled so that it makes the motor do what you want. Usually the old control switching is reused, but it is rewired to control the VFD.
If you are unlucky, all the wires won't have been bought out from the motor to the terminal box, in which case you will have to fish out the wires which comprise the star point. Whilst plenty of people without formal qualification have successfully done this, I would suggest that unless you have suitable guidance from an experienced person, that you see your motor rewind bloke. Electrickery is a wonderful slave, but a very nasty master, and unless you are competent to work with it, you are much better off with someone else who is. And the word is competent, NOT confident.
The Motor Rewinders suggestion that a capacitor is all that is needed for the coolant pump motor sounds reasonable, but check its voltage, it may be only 240V in which case it won't need anything except some minor wiring changes perhaps.

The second option of a Rotary Phase Converter, can be a good call, especially if you have, or plan to get a multitude of 3 phase machines. You only need one of them to run a heap of other machines. The $1600 is probably fair for all new parts, but people have built them for way less than that, - it all depends on how good you are at scrounging the bits. 3 phase motors from scrap yards, often the switched and plugs too, and transformers which started out as welders which could be run on single or 3 phase will be much cheaper than new parts, if obtained as scrap parts, and have been used in the past for projects like yours. There is an old thread in these forums about one such build, I will try to find the link for you. There will be more work for you with this option, particularly if you build on the cheap, whereas a VFD is a more out of the box solution. However with the VFD, you will have to modify the switching on your lathe, and also every other machine you set up with a VFD, and each machine will need its own VFD, whereas the RPC just gives you a synthetic 3 phase supply, and each machine can be plugged in without further modification.

Before you say too much to PowerCor, I would be making some discreet enquiries as to what their policies are. Around here I understand that if I say I want to install a 3 phase heatpump, and if no extra transformers are needed, and if the 3 phase is already going past my place, the cost is minimal. Not sure just how much, but <$1000 I think. However if they have to put in a 3 phase transformer, they want me to pay for it, so cost is way higher. It is probably quite different where you are, but it pays to know the lie of the land before you ask for a quote. If I just wanted 3 phase for my shed, and even if it was running past my door, (it isn't) it would cost way more, probably >$10,000. Ask a linesman in your area if you know any, or just ask the blokes with the PowerCor truck next time you see them, they should be able to tell you what the go is, so you know what to ask for when you get your quote, - it may make a big difference. Real 3 phase though is the best in the long run, but if it is way over the top, the first 2 options both have their pros and cons. Even the genset may be o.k. if you don't have hours and hours of running, and you manage to pick one up at the right price. There is a bloke down here with a big old genset which he got from IIRC a hospital which was being demolished. He is in the local Historic Machinery Club, and his genset would be between 30 and 45 kW, and it only had around eleven hours on it when he rescued it from being scrapped, and he paid scrap metal price for it. It all depends on your circumstances, but as PDW said, 3 phase coming in on the poles is the best and simplest, if it is affordable. Cheers for now,
Rob

[Ueee]

To add to what Rob said about the 3 phase supply, my electrician put the paper work in saying we were putting in a big reverse cycle unit wink wink nudge nudge. The surprise was when the actew man came to look at the site he said "I see so your putting in a Daikin 34702 pvr" (or something)...i paused for a moment before it twigged what was going on....and said, yes yes, thats the model....

[toolman49]

In the chip tray of course.
See yuz.

[shedhappens]

5 or 6 yrs ago, 1200 bucks for me to the front of the block, that was including boring under the road to get it there.

Then it cost another 1200 to get it to the builders pole and the shed, about 25mtr run, and he didn't have to dig the trenches.
I already had the cable to go to the shed, about another 30mtrs,

Then the house plans were changed and I had to get meter box moved about 4 mtrs, $2600 !!:o

In the meantime my nephew became a sparkie and wired my shed, I had the cable and the switches and we drunk lots of beer.

When I organized the 3 phase nobody asked me what I wanted it for ? I just said I wanted it and it was done.

80 amps at the fuse box and 60 amps at the shed :U

[Ueee]

In the chip tray of course.
See yuz.

:doh: How did i not see that one coming:doh:

[Bryan]

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/215448d1342094508-machining-text-books-tafe2.jpg

[Ropetangler]

The second option of a Rotary Phase Converter, can be a good call, especially if you have, or plan to get a multitude of 3 phase machines. You only need one of them to run a heap of other machines. The $1600 is probably fair for all new parts, but people have built them for way less than that, - it all depends on how good you are at scrounging the bits. 3 phase motors from scrap yards, often the switched and plugs too, and transformers which started out as welders which could be run on single or 3 phase will be much cheaper than new parts, if obtained as scrap parts, and have been used in the past for projects like yours. There is an old thread in these forums about one such build, I will try to find the link for you.
Wayne I haven't been able to find the thread I was looking for which described the authors build of an RPC with a 415V 3 phase output. In it he used a transformer out of an old welder, -I think it was from a TransArc Tradesman, but am not certain of that. However Greg has done something similar, and I'm sure that he would assist you with some advice on how he built his, if you decide that you might go that way. Regards,
Rob.

[PDW]

If you're in suburbia, there's a good chance 3 phase is already on the street anyway so no expensive transformer (unlike Rob & myself). Your meter box may need upgrading though, but it probably needs it anyway so not a bad thing regardless. That's what I did for my Sydney house.

90A per phase is plenty, 60A is quite adequate.

As I said and Greg also said, if you go the VFD route *none* of the existing lathe wiring is going to be useable. Power cord to VFD, VFD to motor, remote speed control pot to somewhere convenient, on/off buttons on VFD, that's about it. The VFD lets the magic smoke out if you start/stop the motor or plug-reverse it by means other than its controls. Or so people say, I've done it by accident and the unit survived but it was a GEC Ranger 5kW VFD running a pathetic 370 watt motor. The VFD was free, you see...

Initially it'll probably be cheaper to go the VFD path. If you get a serious tool habit, the equation changes. With 415V 3 phase, there's a *lot* more stuff you can buy and just plug in.

PDW

[Stustoys]

, if you go the VFD route *none* of the existing lathe wiring is going to be useable
Now that all depends what you mean by "wiring". All of the control wiring of my mill is still there and in use. The contactors now just run the VSD instead of switching the 3 phase. Now a simple machine(like my shaper) the contactor was 415V so in that case it goes. So it depends whats inside that control box.

Stuart

[PDW]

Now that all depends what you mean by "wiring". All of the control wiring of my mill is still there and in use. The contactors now just run the VSD instead of switching the 3 phase. Now a simple machine(like my shaper) the contactor was 415V so in that case it goes. So it depends whats inside that control box.

Stuart

Yeah, true, but IMO it's going to be a lot easier to ignore what's there, put the VFD somewhere close to hand, run the cable from the wall outlet to VFD, VFD to motor and just ignore everything that exists. That's what we did when we put a VFD on the lathe at work some years ago. Dead simple to swap back if the machine gets sold or relocated to a place with 415V available.

KISS......

PDW

[Steamwhisperer]

Bryan,
must be a good lathe if it features on the cover of the first year bible.
Kinda makes it a 'cover lathe'. Did you check if it is also a centrefold:D

Phil

[toolman49]

G'Day Wayne,
Just an old fart thinking aloud, depending on the work you are planning to do and the tooling you intend to use, could you get by with a single phase 240 volt motor ?, I saw a new 4HP motor on Ebay recently for about $150, there would be a fair bit of work rewiring the control gear but it could be a simpler solution (yes I know that single phase motors are not as smooth as 3 phase).
Regards,
Martin