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Legion
25th August 2012, 11:13 PM
I do light fab work and welding at home. My power metalworking tools pretty much consist of an inverter welder and a 4" grinder. I cut and fit square cuts, mitres and notches with the grinder in light SHS, RHS, angle and bar. It sucks. I don't have the space or money for a big machine but I'm curious what cool tools I should look into to make my life easier. Handheld would be good but I reckon it might have to be floor/pedestal mounted for accuracy and mitres and notching. The biggest project I can see doing is a couple of trailers over the next few years, otherwise similar mostly right angled frames out of light steel.

variant22
25th August 2012, 11:20 PM
I think the go is basically a Cold Saw (wet type), Cold Cut dry saw (such as the Makita LC1230) or Band Saw such as the type that H&F sell. From what I have read, Cold Saws are the way to go. They are however expensive. I have posted a thread to find out peoples experiences with Cold Saws. The Cold Cut saw gets good reviews but cannot do stainless, which is a bit of a problem for me. The vices are generally terrible on all abrasive and cold cut saws. The real decision I think is between a cold saw and a band saw. That said you should check out the LC1230 as it may suit a limited space environment and one when your only working with mild steel.

Stustoys
25th August 2012, 11:20 PM
Hi,
Have you thought about a Horizontal Bandsaw?

Stuart

Stustoys
25th August 2012, 11:29 PM
Cold cut saws, arent cold, arent quiet, aren't for cutting solid bar and the replacement blades arent cheap. But they are fast.

Stuart

MuellerNick
26th August 2012, 12:43 AM
Cold Cut dry saw (such as the Makita LC1230)

I don't know who initially abused the name "cold saw". It must have been a sales droid and an idi0t in one person!
These "cold saws" are loud, make the biggest burrs and throw sparks and hot chips all around.

A REAL cold saw is a terribly good and fast saw. Makes the best cuts, precise and little burrs. They do have a HSS-blade, have coolant and are running sloooow. Something like 40 RPM (depends on size). But they are not cheap!

The second best option is a horizontal band saw.

Stay away from the cheap crap where you have to swivel the vise for angular cuts. Imagine having a 6 m stock being cut at an angle. That's fun when you have to rotate the saw every second cut.


Nick

Michael G
26th August 2012, 08:34 AM
I agree with the swivel head bandsaw option. Cold saws are good for production work but for irregular or occasional home use I'd say it is overkill.
H&F sell one for a bit under $600 - B003 | BS-5S Swivel Head Metal Cutting Band Saw | machineryhouse.com.au (http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/B003)
I have a smaller one that I bought from Ozemetools which was the previous model to this - 4"x6" Industrial Portable Variable Speed Metal Cutting Bandsaw (Taiwan) | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4-x6-Industrial-Portable-Variable-Speed-Metal-Cutting-Bandsaw-Taiwan-/380462655690?pt=AU_Hardware&hash=item58955768ca)
It works very well and doesn't take up much space at all. (Mine was not variable speed - curses!)
Most recently I have cut 75x75 solid steel with mine and did not have a problem. As an added bonus both these saws can be used as vertical bandsaws too. Not as good as a dedicated unit but can get you out of trouble sometimes.

Michael

whitey56
26th August 2012, 09:50 AM
Hi Legion
My metal cutting department consist of a 9&1/4inch grinder ,a couple of 4 inch grinders and a 4x6 bandsaw [$25 from a garage sale] which i,ve had for 15yrs now.
I have owned trucks for about 20 years and this gear has done all the repairs including fitting 3 tailgate loaders and making gates, battrey boxes and brackets etc.
The 4x6 B/S is not accurate but nothing a weld won't fill up, you can buy all my gear for under $500 new , if your budget is not that good just buy the grinders and maybe the Trtion Supajaws for work holding. A warning about the 9&1/4 you have to think about the blade rotation all the time they will kick back at you using the 3mm cut disc.
Cheers

Bryan
26th August 2012, 10:53 AM
As far as hand-held stuff, a guy showed me one of those counter-rotating saws the other day. His was branded Rockwell and cost him a hundred bucks. The blades are carbide tipped. I saw him try it on plastic, plywood and square tube. The cut in steel looked very smooth, though there was a nasty burr. Minimal sparking, appeared very controllable. Loud but.

Edit: This might be the unit.

Rockwell 1050w Contra Saw Demonstration - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwNQor275o0)

Ben Dono
26th August 2012, 06:24 PM
I can add a bit about what I don't like! I was so looking forward to getting a makita tungsten tip cut off saw but changed my mind when I found out the manual stated a max 3mm wall thickness in pipe etc. I picked up a big makita abrasive cutoff saw instead. I hate the damn thing! No matter how I tweak it, clamp it or treat it, it never cuts true. The disks get a 'Clogged' feeling and choose not to cut and just sit there rubbing. I'm sure I'm not using it right.

At the moment I'm happy sticking with my little 125mm mak angle grinder. I get neater and more accurate cuts/mitres with it. I do like the abrasive cutoff saw for fish mouths in pipe though. It does a better job than I can do by hand in that department.

I have not used a horizontal bandsaw but I think that's where I'm going next big tool purchase.

tongleh
26th August 2012, 07:03 PM
I use a cheap drop saw I got from Bunnings a few years ago for around $150 and blades can be had for as little as $3.50. I use it for RHS, solids, angle, whatever. They are extremely noisy and dirty, spray sparks everywhere and are not very accurate, particularly when cutting at an angle. However, I have found if you set the angle using a protractor, cut very, very slowly and move the blade up and down quite a few times after completing the cut, the cut will invariably square itself up, if not you can always finish up with a file.:o I've used it for cutting RHS, tube, angle, flat etc, on a number of projects including boat, utility and camper trailers as well as cutting solids for use in the lathe. You have to pick the blades carefully though: Some flex more than others.

jack620
26th August 2012, 08:15 PM
I'm sure I'm not using it right.

You probably are. The blades flex like crazy, making accurate mitre cuts almost impossible. As tongleh said, they are noisy, messy and inaccurate. They are basically only good for cutting reo. Still it's all I've got. I wish I could afford a Brobo saw. :(

tongleh
26th August 2012, 08:16 PM
Here is another option, I made this over 10 years ago, it’s probably the most used tool in my shed. Simple construction: RHS framework and floor polisher motor driving a pulley mounted on a bearing block from a mower, a 3/4" bolt and nut and a couple of grinding wheel end washers to keep the blades straight. It uses either a 12” cut off blade, a 9” angle grinder disk or a 9” wood saw blade. It has a fence (for wood) and a guide for cutting longer pieces of steel. Excellent for cutting shorter pieces of steel, cutting wood using the fence, removing burrs or shaping wood/steel and squaring cuts made on the drop saw. There is a chute underneath which empties into a steel bucket keeping mess to a minimum (whenever I remember to use it). I've never had an accident on this machine, never even nicked myself; however, there are idiots out there! In the background is my cut of saw (with its 2nd $150 drop saw top in 10 years) with home made lower section and a better vice.

Ben Dono
26th August 2012, 08:57 PM
You probably are. The blades flex like crazy, making accurate mitre cuts almost impossible. As tongleh said, they are noisy, messy and inaccurate. They are basically only good for cutting reo. Still it's all I've got. I wish I could afford a Brobo saw. :(

Are there better disks for them? I'm still using the makita disks that came with the tool.
On a side note, I use heaps of the 1mm thick disks for my little 125mm angle grinder. I bought a lot of the makita branded disks as their half the price of flexovit. I'm thinking it's a false economy though as they wear out twice as fast! I'm actually a huge makita fan though. I keep threatening to get a makita tramp stamp tattoo!

BobL
26th August 2012, 09:00 PM
I have a basic small metal cutting bandsaw but before that only had an angle grinder an an ancient 8" 1440 rpm woodworking table saw into which I would put various metal cutting discs. When I got my bandsaw I almost tossed out the table saw but I am so glad I have kept hold of it because unlike the bandsaw it can cut hardened steel and if required I can run cooling water onto the disc.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/41542d1173178527-cooling-while-cutting-coolingsaw.jpg
It's slow, quiet and more precise than waving an angle grinder at a piece of metal. I also have no qualms about putting my fingers much closer to the blade than I would with any other metal cutting tool.

I also find it useful with a larger thicker disc to square up chainsaw bar rails.

Ben Dono
26th August 2012, 09:03 PM
[QUOTE=tongleh;1542355]Here is another option, I made this over 10 years ago, it’s probably the most used tool in my shed.

Hahah that looks like my first table saw when I was a kid. I bought a cheap powersaw and screwed it to the underside of a table. Turned it on and cut through the top! I ended up with a zero clearance hillbilly table saw! Loved that thing. I did put abrasive disks in that as well.

Oldneweng
26th August 2012, 09:57 PM
May as well add my 2 cents worth. First regarding angle grinder cutoff disks 1mm thick. I bought them from EBay shop Smith and Arrow for about $1.00 each for 50. They wear faster if there is vibration in the cut. When cutting sheet such as corrugated they vibrate like crazy.

Have to agree with most comments about cut off saws. Horrible things. I have a GMC which has had about 30 wheels thru it. A mate of mine had a Makita and had a problem with binding of the cutting edge with Flexovit wheels. I bought my GMC and it had a pivoting base where the base pivotted a small distance in line with the cut which changes the cutting angle and helps to prevent binding. I have never had binding issues with this saw.

I now have a horizontal band saw which can be seen in my thread on bandsaw updates. http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/bandsaw-update-139691/


Stay away from the cheap crap where you have to swivel the vise for angular cuts. Imagine having a 6 m stock being cut at an angle. That's fun when you have to rotate the saw every second cut.

I have to admit this is good advice although I have one of these saws. I try to cut in the same direction if I need to cut on an angle but it is a problem.

When I was much younger I worked for a place that had an automatic bandsaw and cold saw. The cold saw had a slow rotation speed. Are modern ones running faster now?

One advantage with a band saw is you can clamp lots of steel in them and just leave them to cut away while you do something else. Use coolant.

Dean

Grahame Collins
27th August 2012, 12:13 AM
Like Oldneweng I have GMC friction saw.
It does not flex unless pushed too hard on a worn blade.These beasts run on peripheral blade speed.

Let the motor keep up the revs and all is well.

Mine cuts dead square and to the millimetre as its fitted with a back stop.


I go through about 3 blades per year.I feel people are pushing them too hard if they are getting blade flex.

I agree they are noisy but are dam site faster than a bandsaw.

Grahame

Legion
27th August 2012, 12:15 AM
Thanks all for the help. It looks like the horizontal band saw is the best option. The only one I'm familiar with is the one at the steel shop, where they don't cut mitres and only cut all the way through. Great saw though.

How fine is the control on these? Say I want to cut S/RHS accurately through three sides along scribe lines in order to bend it and reweld, e.g. for barwork on my car. Doing this with a grinder is messy and inaccurate, although the welder hides a multitude of sins. Can I do it with a hbs? Can I stop the cut halfway through without damaging the blade?

A 9" grinder scares me a bit and I don't do enough sheet work to justify it. Besides the steel shop cuts sheet pretty accurately and can fold it etc and don't really charge anything.

Ueee
27th August 2012, 01:05 AM
Like Oldneweng I have GMC friction saw.
It does not flex unless pushed too hard on a worn blade.These beasts run on peripheral blade speed.

Let the motor keep up the revs and all is well.

Mine cuts dead square and to the millimetre as its fitted with a back stop.


I go through about 3 blades per year.I feel people are pushing them too hard if they are getting blade flex.

I agree they are noisy but are dam site faster than a bandsaw.

Grahame

Grahame,
That looks suspiciously like a shopping trolly handle on your saw stand.....does that mean that the stand never goes where you want it too?
I stuffed the armature on my hitachi abrasive saw a few months back trying to cut through 3" square solid...OK, my fault really not the machines. I hated the thing though, noisy, slow, and real good at setting fire to things. The blades bind as the steel you are cutting heats up and expands back into the cut. I did find a huge difference in cut speed depending on the blades i used. I bought some Pferd? ones once that just sat there making noise, and barely any sparks.
I was spoilt where i used to work, we had a thomas cold cut, great saw, i cut up to 3" dia solid on it no worries. You could either swivel the head or the vice or both, which made miters a breeze to cut. Was slow in solid though, great on pipe...actually it cut more chrome hanging rail than anything else, not really much of a demanding job.

MuellerNick
27th August 2012, 03:06 AM
Say I want to cut S/RHS accurately through three sides along scribe lines in order to bend it and reweld,

That won't work that much. The arm of a band saw swings down, it doesn't move down parallel. Also, you can't tilt the blade. So that won't work at all.
There do exist bands saws where the blade moves down parallel. But these are certainly out of the size envelope you thought of.

If I'd have to make cuts like these (I'd avoid them), I'd use a jig saw.

Why not completely cut through? What you do is for bed frames. :D


Nick

PDW
27th August 2012, 09:18 AM
That won't work that much. The arm of a band saw swings down, it doesn't move down parallel. Also, you can't tilt the blade. So that won't work at all.
There do exist bands saws where the blade moves down parallel. But these are certainly out of the size envelope you thought of.

If I'd have to make cuts like these (I'd avoid them), I'd use a jig saw.

Why not completely cut through? What you do is for bed frames. :D


Nick

It looks better with a bent 4th side.

Having said that I never do it myself, I just cut the mitre and weld it back together.

My cheap POS Chinese swivelling head bandsaw is one of the most used tools in my shop. If it died today I'd be off to the shop for a new one tomorrow, or sooner. But do NOT get the straight cut units - as Nick said earlier, they're a right PITA when cutting tube etc on an angle.

PDW

Oldneweng
27th August 2012, 09:03 PM
Stopping the cut half way thru is no problem but you would be talking about doing this with a double mitre. If the angle of cut on the saw was changed this would cut the wrong sides. The only way to do this would be to change the angle of the metal in the vice so it was not sitting flat but up on an angle.

Dean

Grahame Collins
27th August 2012, 11:41 PM
Grahame,
That looks suspiciously like a shopping trolly handle on your saw stand.....does that mean that the stand never goes where you want it too?
I stuffed the armature on my hitachi abrasive saw a few months back trying to cut through 3" square solid...OK, my fault really not the machines. I hated the thing though, noisy, slow, and real good at setting fire to things. The blades bind as the steel you are cutting heats up and expands back into the cut. I did find a huge difference in cut speed depending on the blades i used. I bought some Pferd? ones once that just sat there making noise, and barely any sparks.
I was spoilt where i used to work, we had a thomas cold cut, great saw, i cut up to 3" dia solid on it no worries. You could either swivel the head or the vice or both, which made miters a breeze to cut. Was slow in solid though, great on pipe...actually it cut more chrome hanging rail than anything else, not really much of a demanding job.


Trolley was a feral that someone had already snavelled the castors(bugger).
It was hobbled and could not be pushed back to its herd.

It was kinder not to let it suffer so put it out of its misery and cut out the flat panels for her indoors fernery / flowers etc. The handle hung around for a while until it dawned on me to use it.I am re furbing it as you see.

I have watched the school kids glaze the periphery of the cut off wheel by using excess down force on it.I had to use a bit of used a/grinder disc against the cutoff wheel edge to de-glaze it. Same kids deflected the wheel to such an extent it cut a notch out of the friction saw deck. Some are just too bloody dumb to understand repeated simple instruction and I had to kick them off the machine before they hurt themselves.

Another thing to remember is to always use the blotter gasket that comes with the wheels.The flanges must have a blotter under them.


I suppose friction saws are better suited towards tubular work than solids.

Grahame

Ueee
27th August 2012, 11:50 PM
Another thing to remember is to always use the blotter gasket that comes with the wheels.The flanges must have a blotter under them.

Grahame

I have read that about grinding wheels for the bench grinder too. I know its a bit off topic but can you explain why for me?

MuellerNick
28th August 2012, 01:04 AM
I have read that about grinding wheels for the bench grinder too. I know its a bit off topic but can you explain why for me?


If "blotter" is a thick paper:
This distributes the force over an area. Wheels are made out of grit and that sticks out. You have small points of huge stress. This is avoided with the paper.
It is different with the cuttoff disks. They are reinforced with a lot of glass fibers, they don't need the paper (but it doesn't hurt). Also, there is one included already while pressing them.
Grinding disks are divided into ones for freehand work and machine work. NEVER use one in an angle grinder that is supposed for machine work, they lack the reinforcement fibers.


Nick

Oldneweng
28th August 2012, 06:29 PM
Trolley was a feral that someone had already snavelled the castors(bugger).
It was hobbled and could not be pushed back to its herd.

It was kinder not to let it suffer so put it out of its misery and cut out the flat panels for her indoors fernery / flowers etc. The handle hung around for a while until it dawned on me to use it.I am re furbing it as you see.

I have watched the school kids glaze the periphery of the cut off wheel by using excess down force on it.I had to use a bit of used a/grinder disc against the cutoff wheel edge to de-glaze it. Same kids deflected the wheel to such an extent it cut a notch out of the friction saw deck. Some are just too bloody dumb to understand repeated simple instruction and I had to kick them off the machine before they hurt themselves.

Another thing to remember is to always use the blotter gasket that comes with the wheels.The flanges must have a blotter under them.


I suppose friction saws are better suited towards tubular work than solids.

Grahame

What Blotter that comes with the wheels. The next wheel I buy that comes with a blotter will be the first one. Someone should tell the people in the stores about this. I asked about blotters once and was told they are in a box over there, help yourself. I always use them tho.

Dean

Grahame Collins
14th September 2012, 05:35 PM
The boxes of blades we purchased (when I was a teacher) with the friction saw blades always came with blotters.I was unaware of the change until I asked this week for a blotter for the friction wheels I purchased (as singles) for home and got the same answer as the rest of you. I looked up the Norton abrasives site and found that it is as Nick indicated, in that they are not needed.

I have no idea as to why the situation changed.

Grahame