Scraping a plane sole

[snafuspyramid]

Hi guys, I've been investigating an alternative method for flattening the soles of handplanes. The most common method is abrasive sheet lapping, but I haven't found this gives reliable results; and is completely useless when the sole is convex.

I want to try scraping instead. I purchased a small granite surface plate from Carbatec and am working on acquiring some Prussian blue.

I don't know what sort of scraper to use. I can use a small, Bahco scraper from eBay with a carbide blade. However, this would be expensive and the small size of the scraper handle would, I imagine, provide less control. I would also need diamond sharpening equipment, which would be further expense.

Alternatively, I can use a hardened steel scraper, like this: FAITHFULL Engineers Hand Scraper 100mm (4in) Flat on eBay! (http://compare.ebay.com.au/like/170900211935?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes). This is my preference. Although I'd have to sharpen it much more often, I've no issue with doing that; I've got all the gear that I'd need, and the experience to sharpen most things effectively. It's also cheap as chips. Given the relatively small amount of scraping I have to do, this seems to make better sense.

My real confusion is about which shape of scraper I need. The Faithfull brand scrapers come in triangular, flat and half-round shapes. Which do I need for this job? Do I need different scrapers for different types of work (rough work versus fine work)?

I'd be happy to use a different brand, incidentally, I simply can't find any.

[pipeclay]

The shapes more to do with what your scraping.
For what you are doing you would just use the flat type.
Have you considered just using an old file or if capable welding or brazeing a piece of HSS to a suitable length of bar.

[Greg Q]

You may find that using an HSS blade will be an excercise in constant honing.

Ebay has cheap diamond wheels, but you can also buy a carbide scraper already formed on a 90mm radius (which is a good all-purpose curve)

One the curve is formed it only will require lapping every hour or so. If you can get or make a cast iron or aluminium wheel about 100 to 150mm dia you can charge it with cheap diamond paste (ebay) of 5 to 10 micron size.

If you spend a bit you'll be able to do all your soles then sell the kit to the next woodworker after posting how great your results were!

Greg

[eskimo]

Eddie search this forum for scraping...some good info are in them

[Stustoys]

Hi Eddie,
Where about in Melbourne are you?

Stuart

[snafuspyramid]

Stustoys, I live in the Eastern suburbs near Oakleigh. I'd be delighted if I could beg borrow or steal (or of course buy) a scraper from you, if that's what you have in mind. Please pm me. Or if you have a recommendation for sourcing parts in Melbourne, please fire away - I don't mind a drive.

Greg, when you say constant honing, do you mean more than once every fifteen minutes, say?

[Greg Q]

Stustoys, I live in the Eastern suburbs near Oakleigh. I'd be delighted if I could beg borrow or steal (or of course buy) a scraper from you, if that's what you have in mind. Please pm me. Or if you have a recommendation for sourcing parts in Melbourne, please fire away - I don't mind a drive.

Greg, when you say constant honing, do you mean more than once every fifteen minutes, say?

Yes. i read that ansteel acrapwr blade needs touching up every couple of minutes. I have only ever used carbide though so I can't speak with aurhority.

Greg

[Abratool]

Eddie
Here are some photos I took when scraping & restoring a No 3 Stanley plane.
The Scraper alongside the Plane was made out of a metal file by me about 55 yrs ago.
Its done a lot of scraping.
The file teeth, were ground off, the end of the file heated to orange & hand forged, to thin & widen the cutting end, & allowed to cool slowly.
The cutting tip was then heated to cherry red, quenched in oil,& ground honed to the correct profile.
The cutting edge remained glass hard, not tempered.
Being carbon steel, it is easily honed on a conventional oil stone, to maintain sharpness.
The other photo shows a Carbide Insert Scraper I made before the last Scraping course in Melb back in April this year.
The Carbide is superior, however I am offering the Carbon Steel ( File) alternative as something that is simple low cost & it works.
regards
Bruce

[Anorak Bob]

I'm impressed Bruce. That No.3 is older than you.:U If my memory serves me well, Stanley introduced the high knob in 1919.

BT

[Abratool]

I'm impressed Bruce. That No.3 is older than you.:U If my memory serves me well, Stanley introduced the high knob in 1919.

BT
Spot on Bob.
This was an item I purchased on EBay. The only purchase on E Bay that I have not been satisfied with.
When I received it, I was very dissapointed, as it was not as described.
The rear handle in Beech was all twisted & warped.The rest of the plane including the brass adjuster needed work
So it was one of those moments, & I thought "Stuff It" dont complain just fix it.
I made a new handle out of American Walnut coated it with shellac, then steel wool & wax. Replaced the Blade (Iron) with a new Lie Nielsen A2 steel.
Tuned the metal adjusters & matched the back iron to the Blade (Iron) & rescraped the base.
Now its one of my favourite planes.
Works well, & as you say, has a history about it.
regards
Bruce

[Stustoys]

Hi Eddie,
I've been thinking, but the problem is I dont have any HSS scrapers and you cant sharpen carbide. I guess if I make up a scraper and send you off with 8 sharp edges you should be able to get a plane done.

Though I did grind up an old file I haven't tried it again since I got a "real" scraper. I can only assume that if carbon steel or HSS had anything going for them Phil and Marko would be using them.

Stuart

p.s. It might take me a while to get my together. I need another job! lol

[JTonks]

Hi Eddie

I second the old file route. I have scraped probably 5 or 6 planes soles using an old mill file.

If you are not fussy, there is no need to do any heat treating to the file, just carefully grind the teeth completely off on the tip of the file (don't let it blue or you will have to re-harden) in the cutting area and just enough on the rest of the file to make it comfortable to hold.

I found that the the quickest way to sharpen was just a quick touch on the disc on my cheapo belt sander. It seemed to me that the slight burr left by the sander gave the scraper a more agressive bite. One sharpen would generally be good for one bluing so 30 seconds on the belt sander and I was right to go again

For a flat surface, I just use a piece of thick glass. It may not be a s flat as a granite slab, but it was more than adequate for a plane sole.

Regards

John

[pjt]

I also have done the old file thing, a 10 or 12" long flat, just ground the teeth off 1/2" up the file and a radius on the end, shaped on the bench grinder AL oxide wheel 40# does leave it a bit rough but it did what I wanted a hone on a stone would have given a better finish


Pete

[Michael G]

Stuart, the main difference between a converted file and a carbide scraper in use is that the steel scraper needs sharpening often - like every few cycles.People like Phil and Marko would not use one if they could help it because their productivity would decline massively.

For a job the size of a plane, a steel scraper should be alright. It will just take a little longer.

Michael

[Stustoys]

Hi Micheal,
I didnt mean to imply anything against converted files, just that carbide must do as good a job(so the lasting longer between sharpenings is a bonus). In fact I've decided as I planned on scraping my plane, I'll dig out the old file and give it a side by side with the carbide.

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Now I know you blokes are going to think I'm not only a Luddite but also a ham fisted Philistine when I ask why would you bother? Metal soled and bodied planes have been around for hundreds of years and I dare say many of those planes have never been scraped to flat perfection. Yet, the work achieved by the users of those non perfect planes still holds its own today. I've seen a fair bit of stunning woodwork in my travels that would have been created using just a humble wooden soled plane.

Is this pursuit of sole perfection a modern day, fine woodworking thing? Has anyone seen an old plane with a scraped sole. I haven't.

A ducking for cover BT

[Stustoys]

Is there room for two Bob? As I agree with you, certainly for any work I am likely to do with my plane. Though some people say its like night and day. Maybe it has something to do with just how bad the plane is to begin with? I'm yet to spot mine on the base.

Nasty stuff wood :D

Stuart

[Ueee]

Before I even new what scraping was I was taught to lap my planes soles on sticky backed sandpaper stuck to a cast iron machine table. I have never had my Clifton cutting better though than since I scraped it. Leaping just doesn't get the sole flat enough IMHO. I have just put a mic over some shavings I was making yesterday. They range from 1 to 2 thou. So if the planes sole was only 1 thou hollow I would get a cut at the start and finish of a stroke but nothing in the middle. 1 thou might be big in scraping terms, but to most woodies its nothing, and there is no way lapping would provide a better than a thou result.

[Greg Q]

I'll venture this: Prior to Lie-Nielsen and the other modern makers the 80's woodworker had to resort to used tools if he wanted somwthing useable. A few articles appeared in the early woodworking mags about tuning up planes. I will say that a fettled plane is a joy to use compared to one as found (or as bought).

Once you have lapped a plane flat it becomes a short bow to draw to scrape instead, especially as it yields faster, better results. Having said that, a plane really only needs contact at the toe, the rear of the sole and around the mouth. Scraping would allow you to relieve the non-critical areas if so desired.

I used to own 70 odd handplanes. Now I'm down to about 12. What I really want now is a wide belt sander

[pjt]

I have only scraped one plane so far, a No.4 and the effort was well worth it, I have a 41/2 that I did the sandpaper thing with and it's not flat and a pain to use, in fact I don't use it, it will be scraped one day and the comparison will be interesting.


Pete

[snafuspyramid]

I accept that any improvements to the function of the plane will almost certainly be too slight for me to notice (except maybe the smoother); and that much better work than I am ever likely to produce has been done by those with much worse tools than I already own.

But with that said, it sounds like a worthwhile skill to acquire, so why not?

I've decided to use a steel scraper, not a carbide one, for the reasons already discussed here. But I'll not use an old file, simply because I don't have one suitable, and because steel scrapers are so cheap to buy.

What I AM still unsure of, however, is which shape of scraper to purchase. One forum member has suggested an edge with a radius, another a straight edge; and I've also seen sources suggesting that a triangular profile is best. All three are available online for around $8 each; so I can always buy all three.

For the time being, I've settled upon the flat profile, which I will grind into a progressively tighter radius as the work becomes finer. Does that sound sensible?

[Stustoys]

Well I scraped in my plane from 0.07mm high in the middle using both an old file and a carbide scraper.
If you have a quick way of sharpening* the file I dont think there is anything wrong with it. I'd say its sharper to begin with but it doesnt last long, a past would be it, half a past if you get stuck in. Its also a little on the short side.

Stuart

*I was just using my carbide sharpening setup

[Anorak Bob]

Well I scraped in my plane from 0.07mm high in the middle using both an old file and a carbide scraper.
If you have a quick way of sharpening* the file I dont think there is anything wrong with it. I'd say its sharper to begin with but it doesnt last long, a past would be it, half a past if you get stuck in. Its also a little on the short side.

Stuart

*I was just using my carbide sharpening setup

I'm a bit surprised by that first photo Stu. Surprised that you blokes have wood over there that could scratch iron. Maybe it was a bit of Jarrah that strayed from home.

Ha Ha
BT

[Ueee]

I'm a bit surprised by that first photo Stu. Surprised that you blokes have wood over there that could scratch iron. Maybe it was a bit of Jarrah that strayed from home.

Ha Ha
BT

He he, we all know Stu's not into wood, just look at all his optical toys......

Just for the sake of it, a nice fine shaving produced off my scraped clifton. And the blade isn't even really sharp yet.....

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0965.jpg

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
I think what you are looking at is from planing a stone before going on the granite.:D


He he, we all know Stu's not into wood, just look at all his optical toys......

Don't remind me.............. I missed out on one tonight :(( the only good thing is I wasnt the second highest bidder. Was an interesting piece of kit to...... just not $700 interesting.

Stuart

[JTonks]

What I AM still unsure of, however, is which shape of scraper to purchase. One forum member has suggested an edge with a radius, another a straight edge; and I've also seen sources suggesting that a triangular profile is best. All three are available online for around $8 each; so I can always buy all three.



Hi Eddie

I would be wary of an $8 dollar scraper in regards to the quality of the tool steel and its hardness. I have a no name flat scraper that I picked up at a garage sale and whilst it appears to have a decent hardness it bluntens far quicker than my converted file. A good file will have a hardness of about 70 Rockwell C which is pretty hard.

In regards to profile, the cutting edge needs to be slightly convex so that the cutting force is concentrated at defined point on the edge. If it was dead flat across the edge, the scraper would be unusable.

Triangular scrapers are typically used for deburring holes or easing out bearing journals so that is not what you need for doing flat surfaces

Regards

John

[Abratool]

He he, we all know Stu's not into wood, just look at all his optical toys......

Just for the sake of it, a nice fine shaving produced off my scraped clifton. And the blade isn't even really sharp yet.....

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0965.jpg
Well done, Ewan.
Coupled with a sensible measurement, that is "half a thou"
I hope Steamwhisperer Phil views this, as he will agree with the meaningful measurement :U
regards
Bruce

[Bryan]

Try a 90mm radius and 5 deg negative rake.

[eskimo]

I think Eddie is getting confused..or is it me?

but if I am correct he seems to be confusing the bahco paint scraper types and triangular bearing scraper with a flat blade scraper such as that shown above in Abratool's pics

[Machtool]

I would be wary of an $8 dollar scraper in regards to the quality of the tool steel and its hardness.
I’d concur with that, My local Industrial supplier carries the Eclipse range of scrapers. Mate of mine bought one. Not so much as a scraper, but just a handy tool for cleaning up gaskets, or paint on joint faces.

It was as soft as butter. Wouldn’t hold an edge. And that would have been around the $40 mark. Eclipse used to be a famous English manufacturer. I would have thought there would have been a bit of Sheffield heritage in the steel.

Mind you, you might get lucky with an $8 one. Paying more for a name brand was useless.

Eddie.

You definitely want the flat version. The one you linked at 4 inches, too short. You wont be able to see the work. They have an 8 inch version.

Try a 90mm radius and 5 deg negative rake. On a H.S.S or carbon blade. I normally just grind / hone at 90 degrees. You still have two edges. Technically you can get a sharper edge on steel over carbide. You want to exploit that by not making it negative.

Regards Phil.

[snafuspyramid]

I also purchased a 2" wide 90mm radius tungsten carbide paint scraper from Masters today, for $14. Each blade can be reversed, and replacements are $7 each.

It certainly scrapes steel without complaint, but the slight radius makes
accuracy a bit difficult. Should certainly see me through the rough work though...