Group Buys

[Big Shed]

There have been at least 2 attempts by members to get a Group Buy going on the forum.

Could I direct members to this post

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f12/group-buys-information-137571/

by the Administrator and owner of this forum, Ubeaut, which states his position quite clearly and ask that members respect the conditions stipulated there.

[simonl]

So, how does one go about seeking permission to post a group buy regarding surface plates, as per the forum guidelines?

Cheers,

Simon

[Acco]

The link in Big Shed's post has the info.

[eskimo]

I thought the PM ability on the forum was a private and confidential matter between the sender and recipient.....but it appears that the messages may be able to read by the mods. Is this correct Niel?

[PDW]

I thought the PM ability on the forum was a private and confidential matter between the sender and recipient.....but it appears that the messages may be able to read by the mods. Is this correct Niel?

This board uses vBulletin software. The system administrators certainly have the ability to read PM's. Whether this ability is available to individual forum moderators, I don't know, but nothing posted here is private, I assure you. I always post accordingly and I suggest others do the same.

PDW

[Big Shed]

PMs between members are not accessible to Mods.

If this question was prompted by the first post in this thread, the 2 attempted Group Buys, both for the same item, were posted as a thread in the Metalwork Forum, subsequently deleted and the posters referred to Ubeauts' thread on Group Buys.

No conspiracy here Eskimo:no:

[Big Shed]

So, how does one go about seeking permission to post a group buy regarding surface plates, as per the forum guidelines?

Cheers,

Simon

As Acco already pointed out, but I'll amplify. Just a simple PM to Ubeaut will do the trick Simon.

[simonl]

As Acco already pointed out, but I'll amplify. Just a simple PM to Ubeaut will do the trick Simon.

Cheers,

Simon

[eskimo]

PMs between members are not accessible to Mods.

If this question was prompted by the first post in this thread, the 2 attempted Group Buys, both for the same item, were posted as a thread in the Metalwork Forum, subsequently deleted and the posters referred to Ubeauts' thread on Group Buys.

No conspiracy here Eskimo:no:

what prompted me to ask was because of what is written in Big Shed's link above which states:

"The forum PM system can not be used for any group buy"

if the mods dont have access how would they know if the PM was used to negotiate a group buy?

or put another way...does anyone other than the recipient and sender have access at any time to eavesdrop/spy on any messages sent via the PM system?
( other than the server holding messages for legal issues/reasons etc)

[PDW]

or put another way...does anyone other than the recipient and sender have access at any time to eavesdrop/spy on any messages sent via the PM system?
( other than the server holding messages for legal issues/reasons etc)

I already answered that.

Yes.

Whether this capacity is used or not is a different question. Its existence is a fact, inherent in the vBulletin software that runs this board.

PDW

[Groggy]

I can tell you for certain that the moderators/super moderators do not have such permissions. In my six years moderating I have not heard it discussed in private or in moderating messages.

Note:
I have not included admins in the statement above because I am not an admin and cannot speak from first hand experience. I can say I have never heard or seen it discussed by them. A super admin might be able to browse the database table directly, or use a third party plug-in, but I have seen absolutely no evidence of this in my time (even when it would have saved a lot of grief for the owner and mods to do so).

Everyone should note that at times people use the normal "Forward PM or Report PM" to send a PM to moderators, especially when someone spams their PM inbox - but this is the only way we see them, if the user sends it to us.

[eskimo]

PDW..you did say that the program allows for it to happen...I knew that
but is/was it monitored was what I wanted to know.

It appears that it may not be monitored....but????

[Big Shed]

PDW..you did say that the program allows for it to happen...I knew that
but is/was it monitored was what I wanted to know.

It appears that it may not be monitored....but????

Well eskimo, ultimately the choice is yours, if you don't trust the mods don't use the PMs, simple, there is no compulsion, you can always use a new fangled invention, it's called email.

And if you really value your privacy, you could even stop posting on a public forum.

I take exception to my integrity being questioned as I'm sure do the other mods.

Just remember without the mods donating their time you would not have a forum to bitch about them.:(

[PDW]

PDW..you did say that the program allows for it to happen...I knew that
but is/was it monitored was what I wanted to know.

It appears that it may not be monitored....but????

If a capability exists, it can be used. For the security of the forum owners, this capability has to be there. I, personally, have no problems with it.

Kind of a pointless thread hijack, discussing if this can be done. Were I the owner or one of the sysadmins, I'd certainly have the ability and I'd expect to rarely use it, probably only as a precursor to banning someone. I'd keep it as tight as possible so I'm not surprised the moderators don't have access.

The point remains. If you send something in a PM, it *can* be read by a person other than the intended recipient. So what? Any email you send via any ISP to anyone else can also be read, unless you use PGP to encode it.

One of my software designs logs every query against its database. We almost never look at the log, but we *can*.

PDW

[PDW]

Well eskimo, ultimately the choice is yours, if you don't trust the mods don't use the PMs, simple, there is no compulsion, you can always use a new fangled invention, it's called email.

And if you really value your privacy, you could even stop posting on a public forum.

I take exception to my integrity being questioned as I'm sure do the other mods.

Just remember without the mods donating their time you would not have a forum to bitch about them.:(

I think saying he's bitching is an overreaction. He's asking, sure, but so far he hasn't made any comments about what he thinks of it, right, wrong or otherwise, so he's seeking knowledge, perhaps as a precursor to 'bitching' perhaps not.

He certainly didn't question your integrity and claiming that he did is plain wrong. Now, like it or not, you are coming across as defensive and over the top.

I'd suggest that everyone just DROP IT.

PDW

[eskimo]

I think saying he's bitching is an overreaction. He's asking, sure, but so far he hasn't made any comments about what he thinks of it, right, wrong or otherwise, so he's seeking knowledge, perhaps as a precursor to 'bitching' perhaps not.

He certainly didn't question your integrity and claiming that he did is plain wrong. Now, like it or not, you are coming across as defensive and over the top.

I'd suggest that everyone just DROP IT.

PDW

thanks PDW.

I only wanted to express my view that PM's should be private - between the sender and recipient- and not about perusing them looking for someone who has broken a forum rule...unless of course for LEGAL reasons.

[ubeaut]

We have a strict privacy policy on WWF and are very protective of members privacy. Unethical behaviour like reading Private Messages of others is not allowed and would result in instant dismissal of anyone found to be doing so. However.......

There are to my knowledge, seven ways Private Messages can be read.


Be the recipient of the pm - Only the recipient can read it :)


Be the sender - Yep you sent it so you can also read it if you saved a copy :)
Be the recipient of a Carbon Copy or Blind Carbon Copy or have a message forwarded to you - That's pretty obvious. :)
Install a hack (unsupported program) in the Administration area - Don't have it and won't have it on these forums! :((
Change a members password and log in as that member - Would be pretty obvious that this had happened and has never happened on these forums. Any admin or mod who did this would be immediately dismissed. :((
If you change your email address without updating email information in User CP This will bounce the notification email back to the admin In Box as an non deliverable email. This inbox is only accessible by me may include the contents of a pm. I get hundreds of bounced emails notifications per day and they are automatically delete before they can be read. :((
Not allowing emails from WWF through to to your In Box (security settings too high, spam filter settings wrong or too high, etc).This will also bounce the notification email back to admin which are automatically deleted. :((

The top three marked with :) are the only way anyone can read a pm on these forums.

Everything marked with :(( is either not available on these forums or deleted as part of our privacy policy.

It is possible that an Admin or Mod may be liable for a law suit if they were to be found reading Private Messages or in possession of knowledge that could only have come from the unethical reading of a pm. So........ For that reason alone it is not something that is done on these forums.

Neil Ellis
FORUM OWNER
HEAD ADMINISTRATOR

[eskimo]

so although its says in the rules that one cannot use PM's to arrange a group buy, it is in fact possible to do so...thats all I wanted to know....

I was concerned that as it said in the rules that one cant use PM's to arrange a group buy then PM's might/could be monitored for that and other issues.

And thanks for clearing that up Niel.

(psst....we can do it behind their backs guys):D

[ubeaut]

The main reason for not using the pm system is because I do not want the forums to be directly or indirectly involved in a group buy. The reasons for this are outlined in the link put on by Big Shed in the first post of this thread http://www.woodworkforums.com/f12/gr...mation-137571/ (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f12/group-buys-information-137571/).

But in short: Woodwork Forums, the owner (me), Administrators and moderators take no responsibility either directly or indirectly for any Group Buy the members may be engaged in. For this reason I have said that the pm system can not be used, besides that most don't have enough space in their pm folder to take the number of pm's that may be generated so the recipient may need to clear out their inbox a number of times a day.

The easiest way is to use the forum email system which is also private and secure (if your email address is up to date on here and you don't have emails blocked) or have participants email you directly via regular email.

Bottom Line: The forums should not be involved in Group Buys other than the initial announcement and anything else that may be approved by admin.

We have come close to law suits in the past via association and have negotiated a number of members out of very hot water and no longer need those sorts costly, time consuming, frustration and down-right annoying problems.

Cheers - Neil :U

PS Sorry for the delayed responses to this thread. Only just got back from Canberra Timber & Working With Wood Show late last night.