Scraping Aluminium ?

[Anorak Bob]

I’m thinking of making up an adapter plate that will enable the lowering of the universal table on my mill. Not long after acquiring the mill, a fellow forum member forwarded me some images of an adapter a bloke had made for his Alexander mill, an English copy of the Deckel FP1. Basically it was a rectangular aluminium plate bolted to the vertical face of the longitudinal slide with relocated mounting holes positioned lower for the table.

I rang Capral Aluminium yesterday to enquire about the cost of plate and was pleasantly surprised to find that a piece of 200 x 450 x 20mm thick plate would cost me about 48 dollars. I thought the cost would be considerably higher.

Schaublin use 14mm* fixings to fasten the table mount to the vertical face of the slide. I have not checked but I imagine that they have a 2mm pitch. I discussed tapping the aluminium with one of the directors at work, a 3 times ANDRA title holder, who knows a bit about this stuff. He reckons that the tapped aluminum would be fine as long as the fixings are not frequently loosened and retightened. He suggested the installation of Helicoil type inserts if frequent use was intended.

Then he said there would be a fair chance that the aluminium would not be flat. He suggested fly cutting (too big for me) or taking it to a head reconditioner to have it “sanded” flat. Then he suggested scraping the plate flat. He knows I have a surface plate.

Has anyone had a go at scraping aluminium? If so, are there any special tricks and how do you deal with the raised burr at the end of each stroke?

Who knows, the plate could be flat enough as is. The table is adjustable in the three axes should some fine tweeking be required to re- tram.


The photo below shows the method of table mounting. There are locating keys in the table that need to be accommodated in the adapter.

* I think. The across the flat size of the nut is 22mm but looking at the photos, the thread looks maybe 12mm.

BT

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
You can adjust for your Aluminium not being parallel, you cant adjust for not flat. Besides, you know you want both anyway.

As far as burrs, I'd guess a honed file or maybe a burnishing rod?

Which way does the Aluminium go and how much height do you get?

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Hello Stu,

Here is a link to a PM thread which in turn links to some Flickr photos.
FP1 Table Dropper (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/deckel-maho-aciera-abene-mills/fp1-table-dropper-148339/)

The limitations I have on the clearance gain will be access to the longitudinal stops and the position of the power feed joystick when it's in the table up position. So maybe 40mm if I'm real lucky ( I could replace the cap screws in the stops with hex head screws ). If I'm not so lucky I guess 30mm.

You blokes will be thinking that's a lot of fooling around for not much gain. Every millimeter counts when you have a bitty machine and I want to use that Centricator !

BT

[Stustoys]

Thanks for the link Bob,
Did someone flip their picture or did it come from the factory with the Z handle on different sides?
You need to think of 40mm as a pecentage, that will make you feel better :)

I assume 450mm is more than you need as it looks like if you "only" come down 30mm problems with the mounting holes and wont be able to have them in an nice vertical line like his.

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Deckels are right handed Stu, Schaublins, well the 13, left.

The 13's bottom fixings are 350mm apart with the centre upper fixing 120mm above. I will see it I can come up with something neater than just a square cornered rectangular plate. I'll have to pop the table off for a proper survey. I could be dreaming.

BT

[Neil317]

Bob have you priced ATP-5 plate? I generally use 5083 (which is sometimes badly "unflat"), but for flatness and stability cast plate is great.
www.calm-aluminium.com.au (http://www.calm-aluminium.com.au)

[shedhappens]

Hi BT, is there a need to use aluminum, and why not do it with a steel plate ?

john

[Anorak Bob]

Bob have you priced ATP-5 plate? I generally use 5083 (which is sometimes badly "unflat"), but for flatness and stability cast plate is great.
www.calm-aluminium.com.au (http://www.calm-aluminium.com.au)


Hello Neil,

Thanks for your suggestion. I have just sent Calm an email. We'll see.

BT

[Anorak Bob]

Hi BT, is there a need to use aluminum, and why not do it with a steel plate ?

john

I struggled removing a thou and a half from a piddly bit of cast iron John.:no: The idea of scraping a slice of mild steel 450 x 200 both sides is daunting, maybe just a bit too daunting.

The aluminium seemed like an easier option.

BT

[shedhappens]

OK, good answer BT :C

[Machtool]

G’day Bob.

Aluminium scrapes easy enough, as you would expect, being so soft. It has a habit of tearing or scratching. So some times hard to make pretty.

I’d drop back to a HSS blade aiming for really sharp, and probably a positive edge @ 5 – 10 degrees, Positive being opposite the way we sharpen carbide. You lose an edge, but you don’t have to sharpen nearly as often.

Burrs are best taken off with Hard wood. Red gum works for me, on end grain, just fly cut or ground. Use it just like a stone. Its what we do with white metal or bronze bearings so you are not loading it up with abrasives.

Neil’s suggestion of cast plate is a great one. Less stress in it. But just keep in mind, it will move around more with temperature. (That’s Aluminium in general, over cast iron or steel). Just don’t make luv to it when you're handling it.

Regards Phil.

[Greg Q]

If only...

I have an extra Deckel fixed table, but its from an FP2, and its the optional large size at that. I reckon it is too big because it has two extra tee slots. Probably weighs 60 kg. let me know if you want it.

Greg

[Cueball]

Greg,
My apologies for jumping into this thread on your offer of the Deckel FP2 Fixed Table to Bob. Should Bob not wish to avail himself of your offer, are you interested in selling it.
I have an old FP2 that I bought from Holland a couple of years ago, and it only came with the Adjustable Table.
I have not seen any for sale here in Australia - but I am from the West and so out of circulation so to speak when it comes to machinery for sale - especially Deckels.
My asking here is not to prejudice Bob's response to your offer, only to make known my interest should Bob not decide to accept and if you are considering selling it.
Thanks for the great discussion concerning the 13 - I have not had the pleasure of seeing one in the metal let alone operating one and thus enjoy learning about them and seeing them through this forum.
Regards
Quentin

[Greg Q]

Sure, if Bob doesn't want it, I will be selling it. I bought it in the UK, then a week later (!) found the correct one for my FP1 for sale 20 minutes from my house.

I am only selling it to guarantee that I'll find an FP2 for sale next door (without a fixed table)

Greg

BTW check ebay...there's a dividing head just listed

[jhovel]

Bob,
I would have thought that cast iron would be a better choice of material - especially since you would want it as thin as feasible.
You can get cast iron in around that size from tractor or grader ballast weights. They are thicker and you would have to either get someone with a big bandsaw cut it to the sze you need and then - if you are lucky enough to find a really big one - have it sliced in thickness to the size you need. Then you would need someone to machine the cast side of the slice (or both sides if you can't get it sliced). Engine reconditioners usually have very large multi-tooth face cutters in a vertical spindle, rather than abrasives, and do a very good job in cast iron in a very short time.
See if you can find someone who reconditions truck or mining machinery, shouldn't be too difficult in the West?
Then you have a very accurate flat surface to start with and scraping won't be so onerous.
The last option is of course something like surface ground steel plate - no scraping. You would get away with 1/2 plate I would think. Pity you are no closer - I bought a $20 piece of used 1/2" ground plate with a pile of drilled and tapped holes in it for a similar purpose sometime down the track, but it is about 24" x 18" and I'd be happy to let you have half of it.... Maybe I should weigh it to see if half could be posted?

Cheers,
Joe

[Anorak Bob]

Bob,
I would have thought that cast iron would be a better choice of material - especially since you would want it as thin as feasible.
You can get cast iron in around that size from tractor or grader ballast weights. They are thicker and you would have to either get someone with a big bandsaw cut it to the sze you need and then - if you are lucky enough to find a really big one - have it sliced in thickness to the size you need. Then you would need someone to machine the cast side of the slice (or both sides if you can't get it sliced). Engine reconditioners usually have very large multi-tooth face cutters in a vertical spindle, rather than abrasives, and do a very good job in cast iron in a very short time.
See if you can find someone who reconditions truck or mining machinery, shouldn't be too difficult in the West?
Then you have a very accurate flat surface to start with and scraping won't be so onerous.
The last option is of course something like surface ground steel plate - no scraping. You would get away with 1/2 plate I would think. Pity you are no closer - I bought a $20 piece of used 1/2" ground plate with a pile of drilled and tapped holes in it for a similar purpose sometime down the track, but it is about 24" x 18" and I'd be happy to let you have half of it.... Maybe I should weigh it to see if half could be posted?

Cheers,
Joe

Hey Joe,

Let me see if I hear from Calm about their cast aluminium before you reach for the hacksaw. I need to remove the table for a feasibility study before I venture too far with my dreaming. Thank you for your preparedness to offer me some of your rainy day hoard. :U

BT

[Anorak Bob]

G’day Bob.

Aluminium scrapes easy enough, as you would expect, being so soft. It has a habit of tearing or scratching. So some times hard to make pretty.

I’d drop back to a HSS blade aiming for really sharp, and probably a positive edge @ 5 – 10 degrees, Positive being opposite the way we sharpen carbide. You lose an edge, but you don’t have to sharpen nearly as often.

Burrs are best taken off with Hard wood. Red gum works for me, on end grain, just fly cut or ground. Use it just like a stone. Its what we do with white metal or bronze bearings so you are not loading it up with abrasives.

Neil’s suggestion of cast plate is a great one. Less stress in it. But just keep in mind, it will move around more with temperature. (That’s Aluminium in general, over cast iron or steel). Just don’t make luv to it when you're handling it.

Regards Phil.

Hello Phil,

Was walking home and talking to Bruce "Abratool" before his bedtime and naturally he was reading the latest forum posts while he was talking.( Multi tasking, a skill to be admired :D.) He said you had posted a response to my query. It is exactly what I was hoping for. Thank you.

Bob.


If only...

I have an extra Deckel fixed table, but its from an FP2, and its the optional large size at that. I reckon it is too big because it has two extra tee slots. Probably weighs 60 kg. let me know if you want it.


Greg

Hello Gregory,

Another generous offer that I feel I must decline.

A perusal of my literature reveals a difference in the longitudinal slide's vertical table tee slot spacing. The 13's slots are on 120 centres. The FP2 slots are on 45mm centres. Not the security in numbers fixing wise if there was a Swiss - German alliance.

Quentin can now uncross his fingers.:U

BT

[Anorak Bob]

Bob have you priced ATP-5 plate? I generally use 5083 (which is sometimes badly "unflat"), but for flatness and stability cast plate is great.
www.calm-aluminium.com.au (http://www.calm-aluminium.com.au)


Hello Neil,

I was not really expecting a reply to my query about a bitty piece of aluminium ....

Hello Bob,

ATP-5 (5083) precision cast tooling plate
19.05mm x 200mm x 450mm at $87.50 each plus GST
Price is ex our store
Additional freight charge applies

Regards,

Laurie Sutton
Managing Director

Not too stiff. I've asked Laurie about the freight. I was set to abandon this little project when I chanced upon a J head Bridgeport this morning. After being underwhelmed by the BP this is back on the boil.

Thanks again.
Bob.