Another - help me select a mill question

[denncarm]

Unless I can find something better before October I intend to buy a Mill at the H&F sale.
My needs are not great, I am into building model engines and trains up to the 7.25 inch scale, what I need is something that does accurate small work rather than large pieces.
I was originally looking at the HM-46 but the HM-48 (at an extra $1,500) looks to have the same head has a number of useful options so I was going to buy that.
My son was at H&F last Friday and said the cosmetic finish of the HM-48 on display was very bad and wants to talk me into buying the HM-52G (he is not paying). The price is not a real problem since I had allowed 1 to 2 thousand for ‘options’ so if I buy the 52 then I will have to buy them slowly over the next few months.
Reading through the posts on this forum it looks like you can get problems regardless of which model you get but at least no-one has posted that they got a useless piece… and ended up just dumping it (exchanging it is different).
So my question is, if you own a HM-46, HM-48, HM-50 or HM-52 would you mind posting your experience and the usability of the machine, and what rework (if any) you did to get there.
I am watching the auction at Toowoomba but the only piece I could move would be the Bridgeport and I won’t get a chance to inspect it. I would love some of the others but at 2 to 3 ton I just couldn’t get them into the shed.

[eskimo]

the HM52 and clones have been the topic of many posts on the forum.

if I had my way again I would have won the BM30 in the raffle

I dont know about the smaller units as to their sturdiness and quality of machining

[pipeclay]

I can only comment on the 52G as my other mill is a 36 although I find the 36 quite serviceable for what I use it for.

With the 52 I havent struck much wrong with it apart from fasteners not being tight,but this is a common problem that I have encounted over many years with Chinese items.

The slined drive shaft does knock a bit in its housing depending on the RPM your running,I have found that depth of cut and feed rate can reduce or increase the noise emitted,apart from it not sounding good its no noisier than the 36.

I have found that the fine feed feels a bit light to use,there is no real resistance and that it sometimes moves off its setting with vibration.

I have found the slides on the 52 to be quite good,the micrometer scales to be pretty close,not exact but if the item your making doesnt need extremely close tollerances they are quite good.If you need accuracy then an indicator or readout would be your preffered choice.

Speed changes on the Vertical are not hard although room for your hands is limited,changes for the Horizontal are not difficult either although possably slow.

Ridgidity of the machine I have found to be good for what you get,once again you would quickly learn its capabilities,I find cuts of upto 3mm by 80mm with the Vertical head not a problem and the smaller the OD of the cutter even better.

With Slot or End milling I find it also quite capable.

I have only used the Horizontal a few times and only with a Face cutter,once again I find it performed quite well.

As a down side I would have to say apart from the limited space when doing Vertical speed changes the knee raise and lower handle can sometimes hit the cross slide handle depending on where its located,and the knee handle has a tendency to vibrate off if not removed after raising or lowering the table,not a big problem but it does hurt a bit.

They rear way protectors performs ok,but any swarf getting to it can be a pain to remove as it allows the swarf to stick to it,much better to replace this with a piece of rubber or similar.

They dont supply a Horizontal spindle nose protector so you would need to make one out of plastic or timber.

In general although I have only had this mill for a few months I find it quite capable.

[denncarm]

Thanks for that Pipeclay, that is exactly the information I am after

Eskimo what raffle has BM30's as a prize, I want some tickets

Anyone else?

[eskimo]

Eskimo what raffle has BM30's as a prize, I want some tickets



I reckon it might be the Timber & Working With Wood Show in Adelaide

I won my AL960 lathe at the last show there I think it was...timber wood metal steel she doesnt know the difference in machines...:U

(she thinks I won it in a raffle...its a way of keeping of trouble...errr I mean danger)

[denncarm]

Eskimo - you are male it is only the depth that varies

[mike rolly]

Good Evening denncarm,

Mate, I own a HM-46 Mill Drill from Hare and Forbes' last sale. Picked it up for under $1800.00 about 7-8 months ago.

Since then, I have added a DRO from eBay seller DROPROs, installation was fairly easy requiring a little planning and making up some backing brackets, I absolutely love the DRO now. Added a vise, collets, clamping kit, parallels, 123 blocks, end mills and a rotary table. Also picked up various measuring and inspection devices. I bought all the accessories except for the vise and r/t from overseas sellers and saved a fortune doing so.

The mill itself has been a steep learning curve for me, one that I have enjoyed, I know enough now to be dangerous :roll:

I have read about some problems regarding the fine feed on these machines, I must have got lucky as I have not encountered any issues as yet. I did drain the oil from the head and had a look inside, all good, no casting sand or foreign objects at all. One of my neighbours is a retired tradie and considered my mill a bit of a toy when I first brought it home. He has used it often since then and has changed his tune a little. reckons, 'not too bad mate, better that I thought it would be.'

I gave mine a strip down and assemble after reading some posts here, the difference in feel and smoothness was amazing. Get the cosmoline gunk off and replace with way oil, spend an hour or so adjusting the gibs, and read how to tram properly from the info on this site. I have now got it mounted on a slab and bolted down, very stable and vibration free.

The HM-46 has met my needs and then some, it cuts through any material I have used, just adjust your feeds and speeds to suit. Learning about the importance of feeds, speeds, coolant and correct cutters to use has helped me enormously.

In short, given the situation again I would still buy the HM-46 for my requirements.


Mike

[denncarm]

'mike rolly' thanks for the information, what are you using your hm-46 for.

Thanks
Dennis

[Ueee]

Hi Dennis,
If you havent, read my thread "hm50 can o worms" (sorry I can't give you a link I'm away and on my phone). I saw a new one the other day with ground ways so if you buy one make sure it is not just milled like mine. IMHO The spline knock problem is the hardest to live with, but easy to fix if you have a lathe. Davej has posted lots of good fixes for the 50 sized machines, but they really are crap compared to a good machine, but affordable for hobbyists like us. Having said that if I had my time again I would have bought a smaller machine and waited for a good second hand one.

[cba_melbourne]

....My son was at H&F last Friday and said the cosmetic finish of the HM-48 on display was very bad and wants to talk me into buying the HM-52G (he is not paying). The price is not a real problem since I had allowed 1 to 2 thousand for ‘options’ so if I buy the 52 then I will have to buy them slowly over the next few months.

Some years ago H&F had both the Taiwan built RF mill/drill and the China made clones on display, side by side to compare. I remember I was well and truly shocked at the huge difference in finish. In the meantime they dropped the Taiwanese RF - strange it was only 200$ dearer, by the build difference I would have guessed at least $600 difference.

If you can afford it, go for the HM-50 or even the 52. These are in my opinion much better built. For very little extra money you get a real turret mill with knee, not just a benchtop mill/drill with dovetail column. Also compare the weight, you get twice the weight = twice the rigidity. On a mill weight matters much more than it does on a lathe. Keep in mind though that the tooling will add up very quickly. Chris

[denncarm]

Thanks everyone for the info.

What are your comments on moving to a better type of machine, but would have to limit myself to a 46 size.

The one I am looking at just now is the MD46 from Applied, anyone got any comments on this machine or company. trouble is I live in Brisbane and they are in Melbourne.

Thanks
Dennis

[variant22]

The one I am looking at just now is the MD46 from Applied, anyone got any comments on this machine or company. trouble is I live in Brisbane and they are in Melbourne.


Dennis, I have an MD45 on order from Asset Plant (SM-MD45. Mill Drill. Steelmaster Geared Head Drive Mill Drill, Dovetail Guides, Digital Depth. - Asset Plant & Machinery (http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/11-0314)). After doing a bit of research I found this machine to meet my needs and have quite a few nice features that competing RF-45 clones tended to lack. The table size (800x240) was bigger than the H&F HM46 (730x210), as was the Y axis travel (230mm vs 195mm). These are both important things to consider. The machine also has depth DRO instead of the manual scale, adjustable depth stop and other nice things like the Halogen work light. They can also get you an R8 spindle version if you want it! The service from these guys has been good to date and I got a great deal on my machine. You end up paying basically the same as the H&F price for a much better equipped mill (in my opinion).

As a side note, I contacted Applied and never received a response. I never bothered evaluating their offering further.

[simonl]

Dennis, I have an MD45 on order from Asset Plant (SM-MD45. Mill Drill. Steelmaster Geared Head Drive Mill Drill, Dovetail Guides, Digital Depth. - Asset Plant & Machinery (http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/11-0314)). After doing a bit of research I found this machine to meet my needs and have quite a few nice features that competing RF-45 clones tended to lack. The table size (800x240) was bigger than the H&F HM46 (730x210), as was the Y axis travel (230mm vs 195mm). These are both important things to consider. The machine also has depth DRO instead of the manual scale, adjustable depth stop and other nice things like the Halogen work light. They can also get you an R8 spindle version if you want it! The service from these guys has been good to date and I got a great deal on my machine. You end up paying basically the same as the H&F price for a much better equipped mill (in my opinion).

As a side note, I contacted Applied and never received a response. I never bothered evaluating their offering further.

Hi Dennis,

As much as I don't have an MD45, I have been to asset plant and machinery and looked at their machines. I would have to concur with Variant22 on this. They seem to be a reasonable machine.

Simon

[cba_melbourne]

Thanks everyone for the info.

What are your comments on moving to a better type of machine, but would have to limit myself to a 46 size.

The one I am looking at just now is the MD46 from Applied, anyone got any comments on this machine or company. trouble is I live in Brisbane and they are in Melbourne.

Thanks
Dennis

Dennis, in the same price class with an HM-46 you will find the Sieg Super X3. It is in my opinion better finished than the Chinese RF clones, has variable speed and some nice extras, and is overall better suited for small and accurate work like making model engines, than the relatively crude HM46. The HM46 is essentially an industrial compound table drill press, that can also mill. The X3 or SuperX3 are model engineer mills that can also drill. The HM46 is however heavier, and better suited/faster at roughing things out. Whilst the X3's definitely have more "feeling" in the handwheels for delicate small jobs. It is not an easy choice, I went through the same some 8 years ago and choose the X3. Bust most that I do is small, and I came from 20 years of milling in the lathe.

Minitech in Brisbane have always some small mills on display, may be worth a visit. Chris

[denncarm]

Thanks everyone for helping

Still changing my mind every hour.

For those who have the HM50/52 machines is there any problem with pulling off the head, table and knee so that I can move it and give it the once over while it is apart.

Going cold on the MD46, it is about $4k for the basic machine and if I have to go down to have a look plus shipping it is going to cost over $5K.

Of course I reserve the right to change my mind more than my wife does.

Thanks
Dennis

edit: Hi CBA I like the X5015M from minitech but the gap between the table and spindle is only 280mm and I was concerned about running out of space, I was looking for a min of about 500mm

[variant22]

Going cold on the MD46, it is about $4k for the basic machine and if I have to go down to have a look plus shipping it is going to cost over $5K.


Did you even look at the Asset Plant MD45 (http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/11-0314) that I pointed you to?

These are a great machine that can be had for a scratch over 2k. Shipping is remarkably cheap and I expect it would be less than $250 to your door. The other thing to consider is the massive user community around the MD45/RF45/HM46/ZX45 etc. A quick search on Youtube will bring up tons of CNC conversions, belt drive conversions, DRO's, power drawbars and the list goes on and on. CNCZone has tons and tons of threads covering them in the Benchtop mills section (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop_machines/). There are literally step by step tutorials on every piece of this mill. CNCCookbook (http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCMillCNCConversionHome.html) and Graytech (http://www.graetech.com/) have a huge amount of information on them. In my opinion you would be almost crazy to not purchase one as the large active user community is more than worth its weight in gold. Everything you may want to do, every question you have has already been answered with these machines.

[AdosHouse]

Just found this thread while searching for info about available mills.

I'm Denncarm's son, and I keep pushing him to buy the BM-30 (I'm not paying) and I even seem to be making progress.

My argument? Looks more like a 'real' machine. LOL.

Also, probably better made.