Newbie; Are crown tools any good?

[OG]

I am finally starting to do something that I have been hoping to do for years, get into woodworking. I have not got many tools yet, so I am looking to buy right the first time. I believe in the "you get what you pay for" policy. What I have seen in most Hardware stores has left me cold so far, but today I visited MIK here in adelaide and was very impressed.
I am certainly not in a position to pay for the more beautiful "Rolls Royce" tools they have on display (would be a different matter if I was thinking of making a living with them), but they did have a selection of Crown tools (Sheffield England) Saw and marking out tools on offer.
My woodworking asperations are unlikely to go beyond serious hobbiest level. The Crown tools are more in my price range for this purpose.
I was just wondering what other peoples experiences have been like with Crown tools, specifically the marking out and hand saws.
I guess I am asking are they "Look nice, but did'nt last", "Quality is a hit and miss affair", "Buy only their items X and not Y's", "Had them for years, and no regrets"(??) comments.
Or should I be looking at something else at the same price level but different manufacture?
Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[AlexS]

I have a Crown dovetail saw (actually a gentleman's saw) that I think has been reasonable value for money. It's not top of the range, but it's noticeably better than some that are a little bit cheaper.

[Vonrek]

I haven't had much experience with crown tools but consider the fact that one drop and the square will be useless, the marking gauge will need to be tuned to keep it from wandering all over the place and be useful across the grain, and more than likely any saw out of the UK will be average quality at best unless you pay top dollar. Look at what has happened to other tool manufacturers like Record.
The guys at MIK are some of the friendliest and most helpful around and certainly wont fill your ears with BS, most of my workshop came from MIK.
Consider the Veritas wheel marking gauge and read David Charlesworth book on modifying other kinds of gauges (in fact just read David Charlesworth's book anyway). Also consider what kind of work you are doing and what size square you will need. A small Colin Clenton square may well do the job and be very affordable (it will also look very nice in your shop and remain 100% accurate as you can adjust it very finely). Also consider all steel "machinist's squares". Not quite as pretty as a square with rosewood infill but accuarte and ultilitatrian for things like setting up machines. Finally on squares, diagonal sticks are much better for checking the squareness of any box (ie drawer, carcass or other four sided construction) and can be very easily made in your own shop.
On saws you CAN'T GO PAST japanese pull saws. Not the nasty fakes at Bunnings and other Tool depts. but the real thing from MIK. You will NOT regret the purchase of one of these fine tools and your frustrations levels will decrease while the quality of your work sky rockets. With one of these babies of the right size and shape you can do almost anything with a bit of practice.

Good luck

[OG]

Thankyou for the feedback ALexS and Vonrek.

So after looking around, comparing prices and quality, the crown tools looked like a worthwhile risk in the end, especially at the price MIK where offering them at (discontinued due to MIK not being able to retain the control they wanted, so all marked down by %30, they claimed at below cost, and from the research I was able to do, I found nothing to indicate that they where spinning me a line).

I think I did the right thing; the crowns definitely seem a grade above everything else at that same (or even next higher) price level than anywhere else I looked at. Time will tell however, I expected a learning curve when I started this.

Unfortunately Vonrek, I didn’t receive your post until after I purchased the saws. The Japanese saws were an unknown element to this newbie, so I thought I would play it safe. But based on your comments I have decided I am going to find a book on Japanese tools and do some further research. But in the meantime I figure these crowns will at least get me to the crawling/walking level.

Vonrek, I understand what you mean about the squares, I had instinctively held off on those. I get the impression that you are in SA like me, can you recommend a good place where to buy machinist squares? I looked at MIK but I didn’t see any, but then my eyes tend to get a bit glazed over whenever I visit their showroom.

[Vonrek]

I know what you mean about the glazed effect in the Mik showroom, i also tend to suffer from jawdropitis.

A great book on Japanese tools is Toshio Odate's "Japanese woodworking tools, their tradition, spirit and use."

When you do get a chance to purchase a japanese saw, i'd recommend a dozuki to start with. Its a stiff backed saw similar to a western tenon/dovetail saw but with a much finer cut and greater control.

Having said that however, I've just seen an interesting dovetail jig in a special edition of Popular Woodworking. It looks quite easy to make and uses a japanese Ryoba (two sided "panel saw") to hand cut dovetail pins and tails. Because Ryoba's have rip and crosscut teeth they are very vesatile and the rip teeth are perfect for cutting dovetails as it is basically a ripping cut. However i have found it a little difficult to perfect the accuracy with the ryoba as it is not stiffened.

To finally answer your question, try "The Tool Man" at the paddy's market complex on Main North Road, Pooraka. I've seen them there but not purchased one. Still be sure to check its accuracy before you buy (if you're not sure how to do this just post a reply again).

Other books I'd recommend as being essential are David Charlesworth's furniture making techniques, by David Charlesworth, The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking, by James Krenov and Making and Mastering Wood Planes by David Finck. These books provide inspiration as well as instruction.

Cheers, Tim


[This message has been edited by Vonrek (edited 10 March 2002).]