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View Full Version : blade guards fences and other safety matters



soundman
28th April 2002, 07:48 PM
I notice some mentions in other posts about various safety and guard issues.
Whoss for a discussion about saw bench safety.
Ive noticed various approcahes from various parts of the world.
The europeans seem to be realy keen on riving knives.
others seem to like fixed overhead guards
lets hear your opinions.
help me out fellas im looking for a flaming folder here.

How about government regulations in different parts.

Vonrek
28th April 2002, 11:18 PM
I'm certainly no expert on TS's and related safety but James Krenov in his wonderful book "The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking" suggests that many guards and safety devices become a nuisance and are therefore apt to get swung out of the way or not used. Certainly true for many other power tools. He suggests that the best guards are the simplest because then they are actually left in place and used! He also suggests that a careful respect, but not fear, of big power tools is the best way to avoid accidents, and he still has all ten fingers and is working wood at over 80 years of age (For a shivery experience though, have a look at the photos in his book as he hand feeds small parts and tenons on his TS). I feel that there is a lot in his advice though, and people out there involved in the R&D, legislative process and also use of the fancier TS guards might well keep this in mind.

Cheers, Tim

[This message has been edited by Vonrek (edited 28 April 2002).]

Eastie
29th April 2002, 12:58 PM
Tim has hit the nail on the head. For safety measures to be effective they must be simple in operation, must not get in the way and must allow the machine and operator to work in the same fashion as if the guard were not there (within the correct use and limitations of the machine).

The first line of safety relates to the overall setup & maintenance of the gear. This includes ensuring appropriate room to safely work, bench stability, corect blade type, blade sharpness, ease of performing normal functions etc.

The second line of safety relates to the blade area.
As you've highlighted there are many types of guards, overhead, riving knives, etc.
All have their benefits in relation to safety.

The third line of safety relates to machine power and shutdown time, i.e. emergency shutoff switches and quickstop/braked motors.
These are great for 'slow moving accidents' and are often used after the incident to allow the operator time to contemplate what just happened, how to stop the bleeding or what is better to store fingers in, milk or ice ?
Emergency shutoffs should be located at ALL normal operator positions (i.e. on combo machines)

A lot of other aspects come into play.
I suggest you have a look at the following site and see what you think. I personally like the recommendation not to clean gum/residue off running saw blades http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/eek.gif

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

As for legislation, retailers can sell anything, however they run the risk of criminal/civil recourse should their product fail to meet certain requirements.

Criminally, if they sell plant to an industry/employer and an employee is injured, if the plant did not meet the OH&S Plant requirements (all states and the commonwealth have these) then the importer/retailer are both guilty and would more than likely face the local magistrate.

This is a general rule across Australia.

Backyarders have a harder time as they would have to persue civil action should the equipment prove to be dangerous.

[This message has been edited by Eastie (edited 29 April 2002).]

Rod Smith
29th April 2002, 01:27 PM
G'day
I leave the riving knife and guard on as much as possible. When a board pinches the blade as pine often does, (I do work that requires cutting 90 x 90)a riving knife and a firm grip whilst the stop switch pressed is essential. Though my worst accident on the table saw was due to working on repetitious work, for long ours, whilst very tired. Doh! I should have known better.
Cheers
Rod

soundman
29th April 2002, 05:45 PM
I thougth this subject would get some quick response.
You will find in any workplace heath and safety text or course the main problem encountered is compliance. Getting the bliters to use the safety equipment supplied.
Ine interesting technique I heard of was a foreman in a large workshop was called to an accident with a saw bench involving seqerated body parts after calling for "the esky" sternly said "you can all stand here and look at this lot intil I get back and god help anyone who cleans this blood up until then"
Pretty wild. but probably effective. someone had removed a guard without permission.

I have to say some of the guards on the modern stuff seems quite good.

lets hear about some good, bad & ugly.


[This message has been edited by soundman (edited 01 May 2002).]

PEN
17th May 2002, 10:38 PM
Hi,
For many years I was a consultant to Workcover in NSW on the issue of machine safety, especially panel saws, combination machines and genaral woodworking machinery. At the same time I had my own joinery, and the expertise in the inspection process by Workcover was very questionable.I saw some absolute horror situations.One that comes quickly to mind is that I got a call at about 2.00pm on a Thursday afternoon, I remember because I was doing the pays for my staff. I was requested to meet the Workcover inspector at a joinery in Sydney's west ASAP.
On arrival the ambulance had left with the injured worker for hospital. Major loss of blood and missing four fingers. Reason- panel saw located immediately adjacent to the thicknesseor. Operator to meet a job deadline had fed somework through the thicknessor,which required cutting to length for an urgent job in the City. In trying to do both things at once he had material in the thicknessor whilst also carrying a piece to the panel saw. The material in the thicknessor jammed.He went to check and stood on a piece that had already been through the machine, fell back against the fence of the panel saw, onto the table and his hand hit the overhead guard and guess where then- the saw blade. He lost four fingers. The joinery was closed immediately with the assistance of the Police with 28 breaches of the OHS Act. The SCM thichnessor had sawdust to a height of 750mm high for a radius of 1.2m for the full perimeter of the thicknessor. All riving knives and guards had been removed from all saws in the joinery, no dust extraction to any of the three sanders, the hinge inserter retraction feed line had been crimped to minimise uplift. The O/head router had had the power switch by-passed because it was faulty, Three metres to the main wall switch. But the daddy of them all was that two of the three panel saws in the shop had the cut-off switches by-passed so the could only be turned off outside the boss's office. He had a production line approach, time based and the workers had to keep up to the output. Hang the safety make the quota.
The point to be made is about attitude, work safe/ stay safe. No deadline is worth someones fingers or hand.
As to the home workshop, why should it be any different. We are all more careful!! Rubbish. There is not one amongst us who hasn't had a close call for some stupid reason. Think back! We've all done it and most of us have avoided the consequences, but by more good luck than good management, and we don't want to admit it!
Those who say I don't need the guards, the riving knives etc are only kidding themselves, because in the long run that mistake may be bigger than just a couple of fingers. The "It won't happen to me line!" is pathed in red, the blood of the idiots who believed it.
Happy to hear any contary views.
Paul

PEN
17th May 2002, 10:45 PM
Hi,
For many years I was a consultant to Workcover in NSW on the issue of machine safety, especially panel saws, combination machines and genaral woodworking machinery. At the same time I had my own joinery, and the expertise in the inspection process by Workcover was very questionable.I saw some absolute horror situations.One that comes quickly to mind is that I got a call at about 2.00pm on a Thursday afternoon, I remember because I was doing the pays for my staff. I was requested to meet the Workcover inspector at a joinery in Sydney's west ASAP.
On arrival the ambulance had left with the injured worker for hospital. Major loss of blood and missing four fingers. Reason- panel saw located immediately adjacent to the thicknesseor. Operator to meet a job deadline had fed somework through the thicknessor,which required cutting to length for an urgent job in the City. In trying to do both things at once he had material in the thicknessor whilst also carrying a piece to the panel saw. The material in the thicknessor jammed.He went to check and stood on a piece that had already been through the machine, fell back against the fence of the panel saw, onto the table and his hand hit the overhead guard and guess where then- the saw blade. He lost four fingers. The joinery was closed immediately with the assistance of the Police with 28 breaches of the OHS Act. The SCM thichnessor had sawdust to a height of 750mm high for a radius of 1.2m for the full perimeter of the thicknessor. All riving knives and guards had been removed from all saws in the joinery, no dust extraction to any of the three sanders, the hinge inserter retraction feed line had been crimped to minimise uplift. The O/head router had had the power switch by-passed because it was faulty, Three metres to the main wall switch. But the daddy of them all was that two of the three panel saws in the shop had the cut-off switches by-passed so the could only be turned off outside the boss's office. He had a production line approach, time based and the workers had to keep up to the output. Hang the safety make the quota.
The point to be made is about attitude, work safe/ stay safe. No deadline is worth someones fingers or hand.
As to the home workshop, why should it be any different. We are all more careful!! Rubbish. There is not one amongst us who hasn't had a close call for some stupid reason. Think back! We've all done it and most of us have avoided the consequences, but by more good luck than good management, and we don't want to admit it!
Those who say I don't need the guards, the riving knives etc are only kidding themselves, because in the long run that mistake may be bigger than just a couple of fingers. The "It won't happen to me line!" is pathed in red, the blood of the idiots who believed it.
Happy to hear any contrary views.
Paul

Iain
18th May 2002, 11:02 AM
I recall many years ago when I was an apprentice electronics tech we had a foreman who used to delight in sneaking up behind us when we were performing a delicate soldering job and flick us behind the ear. The result was generally ramming a hot soldering iron into your finger resulting in a minor burn and a bit of bad language.
This, we hope, is no longer permitted or tolerated.
On a present home safety issue, I was scroll sawing one day and my daughter came up behind me, unbeknown to me, she sniffed loudly and I shoved my left index finger into the blade as a result.
No major damage but it does show how easily a 'silly' accident can happen.
If this had been a router or Table Saw it could have been a lot worse.
Kids are now forbidden in in the workshop when I am using a machine.

------------------
: http://community.webshots.com/user/iain49

John Saxton
18th May 2002, 12:01 PM
Only a dickhead would ignore the safety features built into machinery by the manufacturers for their protection.

Anyone that shortcuts by removing riving knives/blade guards is just asking for a lot of grief.Many a story has been told of horrific abdominal injuries as well as hand injuries with those that tell it having regrets about their actions no doubt.
An URL that may interest folk on this topic.
http://www.safetyline.wa.gov.au/pagebin/pg005958.htm[/URL]
Unfortunately the above url is not opening the link but my previous post of Machinery Safety Tips on 13 th December 2000 in the Hints & Tips Forum gave a link to some interesting guidelines for safe employment of woodworking machinery.Cheers http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by John Saxton (edited 18 May 2002).]

[This message has been edited by John Saxton (edited 18 May 2002).]

[This message has been edited by John Saxton (edited 18 May 2002).]

Richard Casey
18th May 2002, 06:39 PM
My 2 bob's worth, I remember a few years ago a bloke was sawing on a ripsaw bench, the timber was closing on the blade so he pulled it back towards him and he pulled the riving knife back into the blade and it came out and then into his chest. The investigation revealed that the slot for the securing bolts in the riving knife had been modified into an open end. This allowed the blade to pull it out of the machine. There was a law so this could not happen again, so maybee you should all check your riving knives to see if they are captive.
Keep the discussion going it is a good topic with so many hobbiests doing it.

soundman
20th May 2002, 10:09 PM
You can get hurt around machinery if you are not careful, but with some of the stupid things some people are doing, I'm just totaly amazed whats is wrong with a walking death wish who takes gards off every thing in site, disconnects safety cut outs and such ( insert suitable word I cant think of one).
People like the story above should be charged with attempted murder. http://www.ubeaut.biz/jawdrop.gif http://www.ubeaut.biz/scared2.gif http://www.ubeaut.biz/bash.gif http://www.ubeaut.biz/2gunsfiring.gif http://www.ubeaut.biz/machinegun.gif

Iain
21st May 2002, 08:31 AM
Thanks, will check my knife today, I'm almost certain it is not captive http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/mad.gif