First try at scraper on end grain - difficult

[steamingbill]

Hello,

First try at end grain today. Took ages to dig a little hole 3cm wide x 2cm deep

Radiata Pine. Little goblet. approx 3cm diameter cup. Took ages. Decided to dig it out with round nose scraper in order to practice using it, took ages. Will try bowl gouge next time.

After being able to get Gouges, Skews and Parting Tool working on spindle turning it was quite strange to literally hit a brick wall with first try at using a scraper on end grain.

Spindle Turning : Very pleased and astonished with bulk removal of material with spindle gouge and then the smooth smooth surface left by the skew chisel.

Is it normal for newbies to have more trouble with scrapers on end grain than with spindle turning ?

Off to read the book and watch the video a few more times.


Bill

[ian thorn]

I would sujest you join a club or find someone to show you how yo hollow end grain but for a start you need a bowl Gauge .DON'T use the spindle gauge in side a bowl or hollow form :no: unless you want a trip to A&E .Happy turning but stay safe others will give you some good advice like books and videos to see.

[chuck1]

I use my 3/8 detail gouge on end grain, basically it scrapes. to setup adjust tool rest so the cutting edge is at centre of timber.
move gouge away and turn lathe on then place gouge on tool rest and in centre of timber and push it into timber ( no more than a centimetre into job) controlling the gouge roll to the the side and drag out to edge in an arc and continue till you are at required depth.
it took me about 40 egg cups to master the technique. set up is the same for scrapers cutting edge needs to be at centre height! hope this helps
the tool needs to be parallel to bed at centre height!

[TTIT]

See if you can find some video of Richard Raffan hollowing boxes with the spindle gouge. I don't use his exact technique but the principles are the same so that hollowing something like a goblet only takes a minute or two and is quite safe. The end grain is no harder than the face - it's all the same bit of wood after all - bit of a mind-set thing I reckon - you just have to find a technique that works for you :shrug:

[tea lady]

I would sujest you join a club or find someone to show you how yo hollow end grain but for a start you need a bowl Gauge .DON'T use the spindle gauge in side a bowl or hollow form :no: unless you want a trip to A&E .Happy turning but stay safe others will give you some good advice like books and videos to see.Bowl gouges don't work so well with end grain hollowing. Tis something a little hard to explain in words. Really need to be shown. Using a spindle gouge or a detail gouge with a lady finger grind. You have to start in the middle and work outwards. Opposite to hollowing bowls.

Paradoxically scrapers aren't so good on end grain till you are in a bit. And smaller scrapers work better to get material out. Work from the center outwards again though. Drill a hole nearly to the depth you want to go. This will give you somewhere to start from. You can also get away with a parting tool but they are not terribly happy.

Would be heaps better if you could find someone to show you.

[steamingbill]

Many Thanks for responses,

Am picking up Raffan video from library tomorrow along with the book "Turning Wood with Richard Raffan" - if there is still no progress then I will ask advice at Mens Shed next time I go to town.

Whilst the Rowley book and video were great to get me started on spindles I am not finding them easy to follow on this end grain issue.

From what I've read and the posts above, there seems to be some different opinions amongst various experienced turners regarding whether or not its safe or appropriate to use a spindle gouge on end grain -

Rowley, page 80 "Woodturning a foundation course" 1999 - definitely recommends a spindle gouge

Raffan, various pages "Turning Boxes" 1998 - doesn't define the type of gouge, simply says to use a gouge but does specify "shallow rather than deep fluted"

Meanwhile - after searching the forum I found reference to a video on youtube, where a chap called robo hippy, does a complete decent sized bowl with scrapers in less time than it took me to do a little tiny egg cup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKdqiAc0jx4

For me this was amazing - something to aspire to in a few years time perhaps.

And finally, after reading the the posts above I dont understand whether or not a spindle gouge and a detail gouge are the same thing. Both are referred to in the posts above. Are they one and the same ?

Bill

[Colin62]

Meanwhile - after searching the forum I found reference to a video on youtube, where a chap called robo hippy, does a complete decent sized bowl with scrapers in less time than it took me to do a little tiny egg cup.

Now that name rings a bell...

[chuck1]

detail gouge and spindle gouges would be the same! I use a ladies finger grind with a bevel ground to 25 to 30 degrees usually closer to 30.

[rsser]

End-grain hollowing with a scraper is perfectly feasible: easy and fast with the right edge treatment and presentation.

Put a big burr on the scraper, either with a coarse wheel or with a diamond hone driven up the bevel or using the Veritas burnisher or a drill rod to 'raise a hook'.

Just cut a few mm of 'bite' at a time.

Refresh the burr often. That will mean first lapping the top with raised hook methods.

If you plan to do a lot of it, look at using TCT cutters.

[rsser]

Also with that small a piece of Pine, try an acute bevel angle. Have a go at say 45 degrees. Provides a better (but shorter lasting) edge with more clearance.

[mick61]

Gday goo to club or watch all the videos you can.
Ditch the pine and try some hard wood.
Take ttit advice.
Welcome to the beginning of the journey.
Mick

[NeilS]

Sometime ago Hughie posted a video clip of Richard Raffan using a spindle gouge to hollow endgrain, see here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/raffan-technique-73148/#post743642).

Think of it as spindle turning, from the inside => out.

If you are proficient with the spindle gouge you might like to give it a go, otherwise stick with a narrow scraper, roll it well over into a shear position, and work from the inside => out, towards you (opposite side to where Raffan is working).

[Paul39]

The admonition to never use a spindle gouge on end grain comes from trying to use a big spindle ROUGHING gouge. Too much metal in contact with the turning and thin connection to the handle. The tang breaks at that point and throws the gouge into your face.

With lots of experience and strong tools the above rule can be broken. But not by me.

A 10 - 12mm spindle gouge on its side, top facing right, inserted just left of center, will bore right in. Twist a bit counterclockwise for more bite. A same size bowl gouge with a fingernail grind will work the same.

The top Bedan looking tool in the photos below started just to the left of center with the top at the center will also go right in. It is about 12mm square.

I grind it upside down to make a nice big burr, then undercut a bit on the front and sides. It is made from some scrap mystery metal.

The lower one was a chisel a blacksmith made from a file. I reground it and put a handle on it. I use it as a heavy scraper and grind it the same as the above. It is about 18mm square. Before I had a bowl gouge I used these tools for roughing and hollowing.

If you have enough horsepower and strong scrapers you can hog out a lot of timber in a short time, a la Robo Hippy.

[NeilS]

The admonition to never use a spindle gouge on end grain comes from trying to use a big spindle ROUGHING gouge. Too much metal in contact with the turning and thin connection to the handle. The tang breaks at that point and throws the gouge into your face.

With lots of experience and strong tools the above rule can be broken. But not by me.


Nor me.

Even with lots of experience, I would never consider an SRG to be a suitable tool for hollowing out anything.

As already mentioned, the best way to approach end-grain hollowing is to think of it as inside-out spindle turning. Yes, the result may look like a bowl, but the approach is exactly the opposite of turning side-grain bowls and forms where you hollow out by turning towards the centre.

Tip: pre drill your hollow to the required depth. That prevents you from hollowing too deep and also gets you started working from the inside => out.

[elderly]

has put up a YouTube vidio that shows why even experienced turners should not use a spindle roughing gauge for bowl turning.
Cheers Frank

[steamingbill]

Hello,

Had another go at the scraper on the end grain tonight.

A couple of times I must have done it exactly right because I had a small river of shavings erupting from the egg cup - quite pleasing. Just need to identify exactly what it was I was doing when it all came good.

Following all the comments above will have a go with a small spindle gouge next (not a big roughing gouge)

Thanks for all the tips.

And my weirdest experience tonight was holding a stationary drill bit up to a spinning piece of wood for the very first time - the timber simply melted away in front of the drill bit -quite an odd feeling.

Bill

[chuck1]

great to hear! with pratice it's easy, but I had trouble putting it into words it's easier to show than tell

[tea lady]

has put up a YouTube vidio that shows why even experienced turners should not use a spindle roughing gauge for bowl turning.
Cheers FrankYes. We are talking end grain hollowing here, but ya still can't use a spindle roughing gouge for hollowing any which way.

Good you have accidently got it working Steamingbill. I think there are a number of clubs within cooee of you in Gippsland. And also in Tooradin is quite within reach for a lesson or two that will put you well on the way. :cool:

[elderly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY Link to 's video

[tea lady]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY Link to 's videoYes, that is what NOT to do. :)

[tea lady]

Here is a list of clubs.

Clubs - Victoria (http://www.vwa.org.au/resources/clubs/victoria/)

[rsser]

Looking again at your original post (novel idea): the max width of your scraper should be 15mm.

I've never seen a round-nose scraper like that but am open to learning new things. Maybe you're using a left-radiused scraper.

It should be shaped so that no more than a half or a third of the edge is in contact with the wood.

[steamingbill]

Looking again at your original post (novel idea): the max width of your scraper should be 15mm.

I've never seen a round-nose scraper like that but am open to learning new things. Maybe you're using a left-radiused scraper.

It should be shaped so that no more than a half or a third of the edge is in contact with the wood.


Thanks rsser.

Will keep the 1/2 - 1/3 rule in mind next time I have a go.

Scraper is 5/8 a tad more than 15mm, so I will make a wider cup next time as well.

Its just a simple ordinairy round nose - am aware that some people take the grind right around the corner and down the side but I wanted to "walk before I try running".

Object is to learn how to use it. Have books and videos from library Raffan & Rowley

Bill