Gouge Balance Point

[jay h]

Hi Team, Question - Is there a recommended balance point for gouges, most tools have a balance point. The reason I ask is My large hands need? a large diameter handle that plus a desire for long handles puts a fair lump of timber behind the gouge. In the past I have used KD Vic ash to Red Gum, needless to say the balance points vary considerably. Hence my question Looking forward to our replies, and thanks. JayH

[Mobyturns]

Hi Team, Question - Is there a recommended balance point for gouges, most tools have a balance point. The reason I ask is My large hands need? a large diameter handle that plus a desire for long handles puts a fair lump of timber behind the gouge. In the past I have used KD Vic ash to Red Gum, needless to say the balance points vary considerably. Hence my question Looking forward to our replies, and thanks. JayH


Its more a personal preference thing & as I started with Hamlets naturally I have become accustomed to their handle shape. Having some heft to a tool like a heavy skew, scraper or a bowl gouge does offer vibration dampening benefits - hence the addition of lead shot to hollow turning handles. I much prefer using the weight of the various timbers and the natural feel of timber handles with a few coats of shellac or a light coat of Minwax wipe-on poly. Use high density timber for scrapers and lighter for small delicate tools to match the weight of the tool steel i.e. balance. One man made handle system that I do like is the Woodcut colett handle system, very pragmatic for travelling turners.

[tea lady]

Its the balance of the tool under load that matters I think. (thinking out loud here. ) I had a detail gouge that I put a fairly heavy handle on, but I ended up re turning smaller cos it was too heavy for the job it was doing, which was details, of course. It always felt like I had to hold the handle up while I was working. But with roughing gouges and bowl gouges, which can have fair lumps of wood thrown at them a heavy handle is good. And also if the tool is being use a fair way out from the tool rest heavy is also good cos of the leverage. Things like parting tools like heavy.

[jay h]

Hi Team, thanks for your thoughts. most of my brand gouges scrapers and skews balance on the ferrule within 20mm onto the handle; I also have a self handled 5/8" P+N with a 141/2" Red Gum Handle that balances 70mm behind the ferrule, It feels OK to me but there are times I would like a bit more length. I have a 5/8" Thompson "V" that needs? an 18" Handle and am a bit worried that it may be Tail Heavy. So is there a known tipping point or is it down to personal preference only. I am pretty much a novice so a sharpened screwdriver would probably do, but what's the fun in sharpening screwdrivers. JayH

[brendan stemp]

I too like heavy handles on my bowl gouges in particular because it tends to provide a counter to the forces being applied at the other end especially when there is a bit of tool overhanging the tool rest. I prefer buloke but beyond that I would agree with previous comments that it is a matter of personal preference and experimentation.

[chuck1]

I like at least 300 mm long handles and the back end of the handle 30 to 35 mm diameter, that suits me! I use all different hardwood for tool identification

[tea lady]

I like certain tools to be long enough for the back hand holding it to be resting on my hip. Bowl gouges and roughing gouges need that. And maybe the bigger spindle gouges. WHat mucks thing up is as the tool getts worn down they change. (of course.)

[robo hippy]

Well, a few years down the road, and lots of sharpenings later, the balance point will change. I do like straight wood handles with no tapers or bumps, and bigger in diameter to fit my over sized paws. They just feel better. I hold my tools more level, and my right hand is around the balance point, and the end of my handle is under my forearm. I do not like the lead shot filled handles. Too much weight to hang onto for a long day's worth of turning.

robo hippy

[jay h]

Hi Team, thanks for your reply's, you all raise valid points. Seems to come to personal preference? no definitive answer. Guess I bite the bullet and play with a big lump of red or blue gum and maybe do what Tea Lady did and turn it down if necessary. JayH

[rsser]

Not sure I like the term 'balance point'. Balance depends on all sorts of variables.

'Pivot' point works better for me.

Bottom line: get the cutting edge as close to the wood as you can. Reduces chatter, improves control, needs less of expensive HSS.

For bowls curved rests are best to minimise overhang. Something else to spend your money on :rolleyes:

[tea lady]

Hi Team, thanks for your reply's, you all raise valid points. Seems to come to personal preference? no definitive answer. Guess I bite the bullet and play with a big lump of red or blue gum and maybe do what Tea Lady did and turn it down if necessary. JayHEasy to turn down the handle if the chisel fits down the Morse taper. Which me detail gouge did. Fat chisels I guess you'll just have to knock the handle off again to turn between centers.

[tea lady]

Not sure I like the term 'balance point'. Balance depends on all sorts of variables.

'Pivot' point works better for me.

Bottom line: get the cutting edge?.... funny way of saying it I think. :hmm: Do you mean the tool rest so that sopport is close to the cutting edge? as close to the wood as you can. Reduces chatter, improves control, needs less of expensive HSS.

For bowls curved rests are best to minimise overhang. Something else to spend your money on :rolleyes:I don't like the tool rest too close. If the tool is chattering get a bigger tool so there is more steel supporting. Also not a big fan of curved tool rests. they will only match you bowl curve if you turn a shape that fits them. And like a stopped clock, only be right twice a day. :P

Swings and round abouts. Spend money on tools or tool rests.

[NeilS]

I have a 5/8" Thompson "V" that needs? an 18" Handle and am a bit worried that it may be Tail Heavy.

My preference is for length rather than weight in a handle. I let the leverage do the work; handles at least 20" for 5/8" bowl gouges and 22"+ for anything above that, but I do mostly turn outboard so no issue with a long handle getting in the way of anything.

I remove the lead shot from any aluminium handles that I've purchased.

I prefer a straight handle, but occasionally turn a profile... just for skew practice... and for that a nice piece of buloke goes well.

[rsser]

Haven't found curved rests to predispose cutting to a given shape. But I have several diff. radiuses in them. Can vary the fulcrum point easily enough.

They have their limitations. All mine are bent rods. The longer ones are thicker, necessarily. That means they have to be well dropped down from the 'equator' and that's starting to defeat the point.

Agree that thick shafts is the way to go in general; thin shafts also have a role and all things equal they're my choice; they need the curved rests.

[rsser]

To add: thick shafts are good for bulk removal and some grinds are good for finishing cuts and don't need close support. But do need good jigs and grind wheels to maintain the edge.

[NeilS]

I prefer curved rests and follow the bowl profile that I have in my mind's eye, not the rest.

I find the best area to monitor the evolving profile is on the side opposite the tool rest.

[powderpost]

Some interesting comments here. I find a lot of these ideas of balance, pivot point, handle shapes and lengths, grind styles etc a fairly new phenomenon. Woodturning has been around a long time without all this. Before you jump on the computer, yes I have and use a Tormek, some Thompson and other manufacturers current tools, 12 scroll chucks and a lot of the "new" ideas that have been promoted by manufacturers. Only recently a "new" grinding aid featured on this board.
A lot of this stuff is will not make you a "good" turner. Certainly buy it if it makes you feel better.
None of my tools have matching handles. The handles are made from different timbers only because that is what was around at the time. The point is that if the tool is bouncing around on the tool rest, it is likely blunt. There should be minimum stress on the tool if it is working well, if it is not working well, then find the problem and fix the problem, it is probably blunt. Make the bevel rub and if it is still not working well, it is probably blunt. The handle shouldn't need weights, better to sharpen the tool again.
The message here is buy some help to improve technique and tool maintenance, instead of some of the useless stuff on the market now. There is plenty of books, dvd's on the market and then there is always U-Tube.
Jim

[Mobyturns]

Some interesting comments here.
A lot of this stuff is will not make you a "good" turner. Certainly buy it if it makes you feel better.

The point is that if the tool is bouncing around on the tool rest, it is likely blunt. There should be minimum stress on the tool if it is working well, if it is not working well, then find the problem and fix the problem, it is probably blunt. Make the bevel rub and if it is still not working well, it is probably blunt. The handle shouldn't need weights, better to sharpen the tool again.

The message here is buy some help to improve technique and tool maintenance, instead of some of the useless stuff on the market now. There is plenty of books, dvd's on the market and then there is always U-Tube.
Jim

I support Jim's comments 110%. Learn to sharpen tools. Time at the lathe under a watchful eye and guiding hand is far better value than the next new thing. Your best asset is "the six inches between your ears" take the time to figure out what is actually going on as Julius Sumner-Miller always said "why is it so?" If something is not working step through the process to eliminate the obvious errors/problems then get help from a more experienced turner with the less obvious stuff, or projects that require a big step up in your skill level.

One thing I do differ slightly with Jim about is - be selective about who you choose to listen to or watch on YouTube etc and use your grey matter to assess them. If they have not taken the time to adhere to or are ignoring typical well accepted safety proceedures then sit back & think about just how safe is what this guy is telling me to do and not just accepting that "he is doing it so it must be OK".

On the balance issue, a tool either feels "right" or "wrong" in the hand. What is right or wrong is a very subjective thing and is clouded by personal preferences but often a tool will feel "wrong" to every one. If the tool feels "wrong" to you then you will not feel comfortable using it, so most likely you will not get the best from it or you either. So do something about it to make it feel "right." Be mindfull though that there are some basic "rules" that should be adhered to. They were learned from hard experience and is the reason why tools in high stress applications should have robust ferrules and handles with decent tang lengths embeded into the handle - so they don't kill you if you do make a gross mistake or get the mother of all catches when a tool or tool handle fails.