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jay h
20th December 2013, 03:08 PM
Hi team, firstly thanks for the many enjoyable hours I have spent on this forum in particular, where else is there so much knowledge so freely dispensed. Secondly a very merry holiday season to you all.
Now the "Punch-line"I have just returned from my Husqvarna agent leaving behind my departed 560XP ($1300) 3hours use. The cause according to the husky man, poor fuel ( a cocktail of fuels from who knows). The saw ran on his fuel but not on mine. Plug fouled with mineral? deposit not oil! Engine knocking badly. End result not worth fixing. Sooo folks watch the fuel you put in your chainsaws. JayH

rwbuild
20th December 2013, 03:20 PM
That leaves the question, where did you get your petrol and oil for it?
May help others who buy from the same source

HOOKED.UP
20th December 2013, 03:24 PM
New fuels and oil mixes are creating an ever increasing problem with small motors. I get heaps of chaps with small engines, chainsaws/mowers/brush cutters etc, who have trouble with fuel. Always use fresh fuel and always drain the fuel tank. All this environmental crap is costing us more than it is worth. :doh: PAUL.

WOODbTURNER
20th December 2013, 03:24 PM
Always mix your own. I have 4 Stihls from MS 025 to MS 660 using only Stihl 2 stroke oil mixed with fresh petrol. Never had any trouble with fuel over a period of 30 years from owning a mango farm to cutting woodturning slabs. Oh, like they say, you should never loan your wife so never loan your chainsaw.

BobL
20th December 2013, 03:44 PM
Yep always fresh and anything older than 4 weeks gets consigned to the mower or whipper snipper. I also generally use one level higher octane than regular petrol. The moment after petrol is made it starts losing octane rating. The longer it sits around in petrol station tanks and then mostly empty containers where it can interact with air the lower it's octane rating becomes.

QUOTE from the still manual

Fuel with a lower octane rating mayincrease engine temperatures. This, inturn, increases the risk of piston seizureand damage to the engine.

brendan stemp
20th December 2013, 04:08 PM
Same thing happened to me, except mine was a Sthil. I ended up (after no sympathy from my Stihl agent) complaining bitterly to Stihl who eventually decided to sell me a new one at cost price. I was happy with the outcome. Can I suggest you do the same. It shouldn't happen after 3 hours use. I reckon you should contact Consumer Affairs at least and see what they say.

Big Shed
20th December 2013, 04:20 PM
My Stihl dealer advised me to run double the oil mix for the first few fuel fills, I have done that on all 2 stroke tools, eg chainsaw and brushcutter.

jay h
20th December 2013, 05:24 PM
Hi Team, I used up the fuel that came with the saw; walked up the street,to the local (nearest Independent) servo. Filled up 1Ltr in a proper fuel mixing container topped it up with slightly more oil than recommended and stared he machine which ran fine for nearly an hour, stopping and starting several times. No such luck the next day. JayH

BobL
20th December 2013, 05:57 PM
My Stihl dealer advised me to run double the oil mix for the first few fuel fills, I have done that on all 2 stroke tools, eg chainsaw and brushcutter.

Unless a saw is specifically tuned for this increase in oil content in the mix, this is potentially very poor advice.

What happens is increasing the amount of oil in the mix REDUCES the petrol/air ratio, so the saw will run LEAN and is in danger of overheating and seizing the engine.

What the dealer should have said is "leave the oil/petrol as recommended by the manufacturer" and richen up the Mix/Air ratio. Although this reduces overall power it runs the saw a little cooler (a substantial amount of heat is carried away by unburnt fuel) and reduces the chance of cooking the saw. This is what chainsaw millers (should) do routinely to look after their saws to prevent them from overheating during the long hot hard runs involved with chain saw milling.

Modern chainsaw will run from new on 100:1 mix if fully synthetic two stroke oil is used. The reason that manufacturers don't recommend it is because at this ratio mixing up a tankful of mix is difficult to do accurately and getting it slightly wrong can cause big probs.

BobL
20th December 2013, 06:18 PM
Hi Team, I used up the fuel that came with the saw; walked up the street,to the local (nearest Independent) servo. Filled up 1Ltr in a proper fuel mixing container topped it up with slightly more oil than recommended and stared he machine which ran fine for nearly an hour, stopping and starting several times. No such luck the next day. JayH

What do you mean by SLIGHTLY MORE oil.
A one litre container of petrol needs only 20 mL of two stroke lube to be at 50:1 - the usual manufacturers warranty stated ratio.
If you put in 40 mL of lube that would make it 25:1 - this would make t borderline
If you put in 60 mL that would 17:1 - which would overheat the saw up and permanently damage it.

The average two stroke user thinks that if some oil is good then adding a little (or a lot more) should be better whereas it can be disastrous (see my previous post).
My advice to chainsaw users is to use exactly what the manufacturers manual says and then there can be no argument about it.
There is another good reason to use the recommended amount of lube and that is because it contains a lot more than plain oil. e.g. smoke suppressors which does not combust and hangs around as invisible dust and is not good to breathe in either.

Since your fuel was fresh the excess lube in your mix is a more likely explanation for the fouling of the the plug and serious preignition, leading to the ultimate demise of the saw.

jay h
20th December 2013, 07:45 PM
Hi Bob, thanks for your reply, and all the others. In my first post I said the plug was fouled with a mineral deposit not "Oil" that is quoting the Husky man. Slightly more oil was just that about 5% roughly 1 mm on the neck of the container. I could quote far more of what was said by several people who had a lot to say about service stations in general. Apparently this is an increasing occurrence. I won't be buying fuel from this independent again. JayH

BobL
20th December 2013, 08:07 PM
It would be interesting to see a picture of the plug.
If you mean a crusty creamy orange or brown deposit that still unlikely to be the petrol and more likely the non-combustible additives like the smoke suppressants in the lube.

jay h
20th December 2013, 08:25 PM
Hi Bob, I don't have the plug but It was dark grey with several small, 1/2 mm or less, deposits and one larger 1mm. here was no burnt oil residue on the plug. JayH

Colin62
20th December 2013, 08:27 PM
I would think that the oil used would be more variable than the petrol. I know that locally (in South Africa) Stihl quote 50:1 for their own oil and 25:1 for other brands, which points to them having very little confidence in other oils.

BobL
20th December 2013, 08:37 PM
I would think that the oil used would be more variable than the petrol. I know that locally (in South Africa) Stihl quote 50:1 for their own oil and 25:1 for other brands, which points to them having very little confidence in other oils.

It's the same here but I'm much more conspiratorial than that. I reckon Stihl want's you to buy their oil as you will use less of it. :)

Colin62
20th December 2013, 08:48 PM
It's the same here but I'm much more conspiratorial than that. I reckon Stihl want's you to buy their oil as you will use less of it. :)

The local (Stihl franchised) chain saw shop doesn't even stock it :) It's a fair bit more expensive and everyone just uses branded stuff from the fuel suppliers.

There are a lot of heavy chainsaw users around here - the area has a lot of forestry and the commercial guys buy their two stroke oil in bulk, so the local shop has quite a few chainsaws going through their workshop.

I'm glad I read this thread though, because I've been a little hit and miss on my mixing, and I've realised that I need to be a little more careful. I ran the thing without oil for part of a tank (after I swapped my lawnmower from two to four stroke).

chuck1
20th December 2013, 10:13 PM
all my fuel containers are clearly marked pulp, ulp and 2 stroke, I run my old 7-10 A Mcculloch on pulp 95, it's been hard to get places to fix it but its a ripper of a saw!

twosheds
20th December 2013, 10:26 PM
Did your fuel contain ethanol ie E10?

I don't let E10 fuels anywhere near my mower, whipper snipper, blower vac, chainsaw, generator or boat as it can cause a terminal illness.

Regards
Twosheds

Old Croc
20th December 2013, 11:04 PM
Hi all,
there was a heap of good info on this subject on the Treeworld forum but sadly it has been closed down. The key points were,
Only run pure ULP no Ethanol,
Use fuel stabiliser,
Use Stihl or Husqvarna synthetic oil at the correct ratio.
Run it a bit fat if you can.
I make up 20 litres at a time, and run my 034, my 3120, my Eager Beaver and my husky brush cutter on the same mix with no problems. According to one of the forums, the yanks get different model Stihls to us and they are all complaining about them. There is heaps of info to read on Arborist.com, if you have the time.
Rgds,
Crocy.

Drillit
21st December 2013, 09:49 AM
I generally agree wih everything that has been said, with one exception. My
guy (40+ years in the business)says dont use E10 in any of your equipment - blowers, mowers, whipper snipper or chainsaws.
Hesays that they are not designed for unleaded as per cars. Hope that helps. Drillit.

Cliff Rogers
21st December 2013, 10:16 AM
....The average two stroke user thinks that if some oil is good then adding a little (or a lot more) should be better.....

Yup, I have struck this too.

BIL is a yard maintenance man & he runs all his 2 stroke stuff so oily that it smokes.
He did this to my Mum's whipper snipper & it blocked the muffler mesh with greasy black soot.

I use the synthetic oil at slightly lower ratio (more oil) but never to the point that it smokes.

If you can see & smell blue smoke, you are blocking up you motor exhaust & your lungs.

BobL
21st December 2013, 11:42 AM
I generally agree wih everything that has been said, with one exception. My
guy (40+ years in the business)says dont use E10 in any of your equipment - blowers, mowers, whipper snipper or chainsaws.
Hesays that they are not designed for unleaded as per cars. Hope that helps. Drillit.

This hoary chestnut has been discussed ad nauseum on the Chainsaw forum on the Arboristsite. The response by Stihl engineers is that their saws (even their older ones) are designed to cope with high alcohol content gasoline. Don't forget that some countries have been using fuel containing alcohol for decades, many use only petrol containing some alcohol, and some with a much higher content of alcohol than E10. In these countries there has not been the complete death of two stroke motors because they ono about the following.

The problem with petrol that contains alcohol is that it can absorb more water than no-alcohol fuels. The worst case scenarios are when small amounts of petrol sit around in non-air tight metal cans for many months especially in cold weather. Some photo's posted on the Arboristsite show fuel stored under these conditions transferred to a clear container with a cm+ layer of water at the bottom of the fuel. The same applies to the fuel tanks on small motors.. If the fuel is stored in plastic with a good seal and the container is a full as possible the problem goes away.

So another reason to use fresh petrol and store it properly.

Big Shed
21st December 2013, 12:24 PM
Stihl recommend a maximum of 10% ethanol in the fuel, or E10.

Gasoline Guidelines for STIHL Outdoor Power Equipment | STIHL USA Mobile (http://www.stihlusa.com/information/articles/gasoline-guidelines-outdoor-power-equipment/)

BobL
21st December 2013, 12:53 PM
Stihl recommend a maximum of 10% ethanol in the fuel, or E10.

Gasoline Guidelines for STIHL Outdoor Power Equipment | STIHL USA Mobile (http://www.stihlusa.com/information/articles/gasoline-guidelines-outdoor-power-equipment/)

Thats most likely a general coverage for outdoor power gear for North American conditions i.e. it gets much colder there than it does here.

As far as chainsaws go, countries like Brazil have a mandated E20 - E25. Big forest industries there too. They even have their own Stihl factory producing some older model Stihls no longer available in the US or Europe or here. Maybe they modify the saws to cope with the higher ethanol contents but somehow I doubt it.

NeilS
21st December 2013, 07:00 PM
I only buy my chainsaw fuel from petrol stations with high volume sales; to avoid getting old fuel to start with.

And, as recommended by Bob, I always buy the next octane level up.

And, always use Husky or Stihl 2-s oil.

Disposal of old fuel is a prob.

Anyone putting it in their 'older model' car? As in 20 yrs old ... and adding just a few litres to a nearly full tank.

BobL
21st December 2013, 07:16 PM
.
.
Disposal of old fuel is a prob.
Anyone putting it in their 'older model' car? As in 20 yrs old ... and adding just a few litres to a nearly full tank.

I used to do that in our old Mitsubishi 1986 van but now we have two diesels it's not so easy.
I even used to do it to a late model Subaru but one time I there was not much in the tank and it made bit of a mess of the injectors.

If it's not too old it goes in the mover/whippersnipper otherwise I evporate what I can and add the residue to the waste oil container.

NeilS
22nd December 2013, 09:48 AM
Thanks, Bob.

robo hippy
24th December 2013, 05:36 AM
I bought my first chainsaw from a Husky Dealer, not the big box store. The guys there said to run only high octane fuel in it. If you run it all day, every day, regular octane will be okay, but still, not the best. Only problem I had was when I didn't use it for a few months in the summer. The fuel can, a plastic one was on a bench that got an hour or so of sun every day. Well, it 'distilled' the mix down, and I ran one tank full through. Ate lunch, and tried to start it up again. I couldn't even turn it over. The cylinder and piston were coated in a reddish heavy film. Won't make that mistake ever again.

robo hippy

Old Croc
24th December 2013, 02:07 PM
And another thing robo hippys post just reminded me of, in one of the posts in Treeworld, someone said that the newer enviro friendly synthetic 2 stroke oils have a habit of settling out of the fuel mix. So now I try and leave only enough fuel in my machines to keep the diaphragms wet, and shake the hell out of the containers before refueling. Also from one of the previous posts, some one mentioned that all the european saws are made to run on ethanol blended fuel. That maybe OK for newer machines designed for it, but all our older gear does not have ethanol resistant piping or diaphragms in them.
rgds,
Crocy.

BobL
24th December 2013, 03:13 PM
According to one of the forums, the yanks get different model Stihls to us and they are all complaining about them. There is heaps of info to read on Arborist.com, if you have the time.

As far as major brands go we we have been getting the same basic model as US and Canada for some time - if you check the specifications on the US and AU Stihls you will see they are the same models. There are some small differences like a slightly bigger B&C oil pump on saws like the Stihls 660 for the Aussie model, but to meet similar EPA requirements we get the same fuel delivery systems and strangled mufflers etc. The countries that get the different models are places like Mexico and South America which have factories that still make some non-OHS saws that for example may not have a chain brake. or non-EPA compliancy on Mufflers etc.


And another thing robo hippys post just reminded me of, in one of the posts in Treeworld, someone said that the newer enviro friendly synthetic 2 stroke oils have a habit of settling out of the fuel mix.
I've not heard of this but I have heard of old school lubes doing this. The first thing I do when I pick up any saw is shake it, a habit I picked up from my old many who used chainsaws in the 50's and 60's.


So now I try and leave only enough fuel in my machines to keep the diaphragms wet, and shake the hell out of the containers before refueling. Also from one of the previous posts, some one mentioned that all the european saws are made to run on ethanol blended fuel. That maybe OK for newer machines designed for it, but all our older gear does not have ethanol resistant piping or diaphragms in them.


This may be relevant to 30+ year old saws. In Brazil where they have used 20 to 25% ethanol fuel blends for many years, Stihl still make some older models saws (some models that go as far back as 40 years) and they have to survive with these high concentrations of ethanol.