Help wanted but not sure where to ask exactly!

[Bradsboxes]

Hi Guys

Dont know if this is the right section of the site to post this but I'm looking for some help with something. Over the last few months I have been considering the possibility of starting a small (micro) business during a period of unemployment between two jobs. My basic idea is to make some small things (jewelry boxes and the alike) and basically try and make enough money to keep myself busy, keep my hobby alive and allow me to experiment with different projects. I guess my biggest question is with regards to copyright and copying others ideas and whether this would be an infringement? To put it in perspective, if anyone is familiar with "the new yankee workshop", I'd like to try my hand at making similar things but would this be acceptable? Obviously I'm not going to market them like that, but the videos have inspired me.

thanks in advance
Brad

[bassmansimon]

I'm no legal expert but I would imagine that with timbercrafts and small turned items, they a not complex enough to have any design patents on them. All turning of small things has been done before, and people do their own take on other existing designs. My (amateur and untrained) opinion is to go for it but acknowledge and respect the sources of your inspirations.
Simon.

[Paul39]

I have never heard the concern about copying come up.

If you were to exactly copy (same size, same pattern of inlay, same wood, same everything) some famous wood workers object exactly, there might be a squalk, but any turned thing is almost certainly to be unique.

Go have a look at some crafts shops that sell what you propose to make and see what the owner says.

There is also the quote, "to copy from one is plagiarism, to copy from many is research".

Keep in mind the way to make a $million doing hand crafts is to start with $2 Million.

I'm a retired geezer who makes enough from turnings to buy better lathes and more turning toys.

[Bradsboxes]

Thanks Paul and Simon.

What you have both said is along the lines of what I was thinking. I'm not setting out to copy someone, merely going to attempt similar styled projects, but with different wood, different features etc.

And Paul, I realise that this is not something that's going to make me rich, but if it allows me to amass a collection of machines I'd be pretty happy with that :)

Thanks for your help

Brad

[chuck1]

I have had my designs copied, I had mixed emotions at first but in the end my happy ones over ruled that someone liked it enough to give it a go!
I read a famous wood turners book, and came to my own conclusion as said before me it's all beads and hollows so it's hard to arrange them in a ground breaking design
With my paid work I'm copying someone else's designs with balusters and posts on the rare occasion I get to make a new stock item for a customer!
my main issue is people under selling themselves and not valuing their time!
hope I have not offended anyone!

[Bradsboxes]

Thanks Chuck1!

This post was a little more general (not specifically turning) but I still think that its much the same for most other things. Theres only so many ways one can make a small box or a bowl or a cupboard so it does make sense that there shouldnt be any problems. I'm still pretty new to the hobby but the idea of filling my shed with all the amazing tools that they have at places like CARBA-TEC and the alike excites me! All i asked for for Christmas was gift vouchers for there ;) haha.

Thanks for every ones help

Cheers
Brad

[MAPLEMAN]

my main issue is people under selling themselves and not valuing their time!
With the flood of cheap wood crafts from China and India,this becomes inevitable,unfortunately :(...MM:2tsup:

[doug3030]

With the flood of cheap wood crafts from China and India,this becomes inevitable,unfortunately :(...MM:2tsup:


I disagree that it is inevitable.

If you have s quality product and you distance yourself from that mass produced market, you can get a fair price for your goods. The people with the money to pay your fair price are usually discerning enough to know the difference between mass-imports and a craftsman-made unique item.

You might not sell as many as you would like and it may be difficult to make a living just through your woodwork, but there are many people out there with a more comfortable lifestyle than they would otherwise had or even just having the hobby fund itself.

Cheers

Doug

[Nanigai]

I disagree that it is inevitable.

If you have s quality product and you distance yourself from that mass produced market, you can get a fair price for your goods. The people with the money to pay your fair price are usually discerning enough to know the difference between mass-imports and a craftsman-made unique item.

You might not sell as many as you would like and it may be difficult to make a living just through your woodwork, but there are many people out there with a more comfortable lifestyle than they would otherwise had or even just having the hobby fund itself.

Cheers Doug

And be aware that the people with the money rarely frequent weekend markets, this is where to find bargain hunters with a $2 per item budget.
Just saying:U
Cheers, Ian

[tea lady]

And be aware that the people with the money rarely frequent weekend markets, this is where to find bargain hunters with a $2 per item budget.
Just saying:U
Cheers, IanYes. Find a shop to sell through. Don't sweat the mark up. They are selling the thing. And it ain't worth nuthin' if its not sold. Go up to Harndorf or some other tourist place. :think: The Barossa perhaps? Make a line of foody things. And use native timbers. China can't copy that. :cool:

[MAPLEMAN]

I disagree that it is inevitable.

If you have s quality product and you distance yourself from that mass produced market, you can get a fair price for your goods. The people with the money to pay your fair price are usually discerning enough to know the difference between mass-imports and a craftsman-made unique item.

You might not sell as many as you would like and it may be difficult to make a living just through your woodwork, but there are many people out there with a more comfortable lifestyle than they would otherwise had or even just having the hobby fund itself.

Cheers

DougMaybe not inevitable for everyone Doug,but as you say,'difficult to make a living through your woodwork'.There are furniture makers all over the sunshine coast closing up shop at an alarming rate,and alot of them produce 'quality 'work..actually spoke to a local luthier yesterday (his guitars start at 4-5k),and he expressed his concerns regarding 'cheap' guitars entering the country,which in turn affect his level of sales.Yes,there will always be folk out there willing to sacrifice their dollars for quality made items,but they are becoming scarcer by the day...MM:2tsup:

[MAPLEMAN]

China can't copy that. :cool:Yes they can Tea Lady,because we sell them our logs :doh:..MM:2tsup:

[Ed..]

I wouldn't be too concerned about the patent/copyright issues, those would have to be valid and current in your country of manufacture/sale and it costs a small fortune to patent something so I doubt that custom built wooden things would have any issues. Where you might have an issue is if for example, someone patented a " XYZ You-Beaut rocking chair" and you copied it identically and labled it as such, the patent holder would then have an issue with yours, but probably wouldn't if you had a similar rocking chair without their brand name on it. Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers

Ed

[tea lady]

Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced all this is something you just do in between jobs. You need a bit of focus and concerted effort. :C

[Oldgreybeard]

I remember watching that series on cable TV. At the end of each program there was an advertisement offering detailed (and in most cases full size) drawings ,cutting lists and suppliers of hardware etc. So I doubt that there would be any problem.
Not exactly the same, but some time back I wanted to use excerpts from a TV photography show in a newsletter I was producing. A email to the presenter not only got permission but a pdf files of the information I was interested in. Google "New yankee workshop" and see if you can make contact - could resolve the problem very quickly. Make sure that you offer to acknowledge the show as the inspiration for your work - only needs to be a small line in ads or notice in your workshop - might also add credibility in the eyes of prospective purchasers of your work.

Bob

[Bradsboxes]

Thanks everyone for you input! Its greatly appreciated by me as a newbie!

I think its pretty sad that people will sacrifice quality over quantity when buying from China but it is something that is inevitable in my opinion, particularly for Australia as a small island nation of only 23 million. We cant compete with the sheer numbers of the workforce that India and China can maintain, but like it was said earlier, we can compete on quality. You just need to position yourself properly in the market and be different enough from the mass produced numbers. Being so close to the Asian nations is a curse and a blessing at the same time. Although many believe that the resource boom is over, China wont just stop work overnight - even if they wanted too - that sheer number of people means that they will continue to need Iron and other metals. They will still want to produce the cheap products that the world wants and so they will still need to continue importing. And if and when they become serious about nuclear tec, they will want our uranium. But on the other hand, being so close to them makes these cheap products significantly easier to access for Australian companies (I work for a large retailer, id dare say that 85% of the tools and hardware we sell is from China!), and because they buy in such large quantities the costs go down and the mark up percentage gets bigger! Kinda makes you feel a bit sick when you start finding out the 'cost' price of something that's made in China.

Anyhow, my intention is not to take these guys on and start a multi-million dollar empire, just want to make some things with my tools while I have a few months off between jobs and see if I can move what I make. I've got some ideas that come into my head late at night when Im trying to sleep and seeing them in real life is one of my goals for next year!

Thanks
Brad

[Bradsboxes]

Bob, just had a look on their site. For a cold hard 3 grand i can get the complete series on DVD and all the scaled plans to the 210 different projects. And by the looks of things they are re running the eps on the webpage! Happy days!

Cheers
Brad

[Oldgreybeard]

Bob, just had a look on their site. For a cold hard 3 grand i can get the complete series on DVD and all the scaled plans to the 210 different projects. And by the looks of things they are re running the eps on the webpage! Happy days!

Cheers
Brad

I probably should have looked before I posted. But if they are actively selling thier plans and expecting top dollar for them, that may be a clue that they would not appreciate someone using thier plans commercially without prior payment/ approval.
Good luck with the new venture - I hope it pays off for you.
Bob

[MAPLEMAN]

Bob, just had a look on their site. For a cold hard 3 grand i can get the complete series on DVD and all the scaled plans to the 210 different projects. And by the looks of things they are re running the eps on the webpage! Happy days!

Cheers
Brad'Intellectual Property' doesn't always come cheap :no:..MM:2tsup:

[tea lady]

If you really need someone elses plans to work out how to make boxes you might be pushing the proverbial up a rather steep incline turning this into a money making thing.

[Mobyturns]

I'm no legal expert but I would imagine that with timbercrafts and small turned items, they a not complex enough to have any design patents on them. All turning of small things has been done before, and people do their own take on other existing designs. My (amateur and untrained) opinion is to go for it but acknowledge and respect the sources of your inspirations.
Simon.


Some do and some have had registered designs on them for a very long time.

[Bradsboxes]

I will state this again, just to clarify.

I'm not looking to COPY someone's design exactly (I'm not particularly artistic but I'm good with thinking designs through), rather they will be inspired by someones work. One particular example of this is a jewelry box that had a secret draw that consisted of the base of the box sliding out which wasn't visible in any way from just looking at it. I thought that this was a pretty cool little idea which I would like to use/try out, but wasn't sure if I started making similar things if there would be a conflict. I'm not looking to buy his whole collection of works so I can start a business selling replicas, just wanted to know what the communities feelings were on making similar designs to someone else. Like I've said before, I'm not looking to make a million dollars from this, just want to see if I can make the hobby pay for itself over a short period, maybe make some money to reinvest into more/better tools and experiment with better woods (only gone as far as to use those which are available from Bunnings). I wont be working so the value of my time will be negligible when you consider it as time spent doing a hobby, so at the very least if I can get back the money for the timber and maybe a bit extra for sundry items I'll feel I'm on a winner.

Thanks
Brad

[Mobyturns]

Brad, my comment is not directed at you personally.

Many turners see some designs as public domain or as another well known turner's creation when in fact if you do a little research the design even predates them. Some are or were actually registered designs and were produced in the thousands or tens of thousands. Now that turning is no longer a full time occupation except for the few the general hobbyist sees everything as fair game. That respect for others interlectual rights has diminished. In some cases it was hotly protected. Tunbridge Ware is a fine example of that, and is now almost lost as there is little documented about how it was created.

I would be wary of purchasing plans then selling product created from those plans for a number of reasons. Probably the best advice on this post has been "steal from many." Do your research, be influenced by others designs and add your personal touch. You will sleep better at night then.

For those interested in this topic Jerry Bennett has a very good article on plaigarism & copying in the AAW's journal (28.2:35–41).

[mrjhodges]

I think the design is not the thing that is an issue, it is an issue if you try to reproduce a name or symbol. You can make copy Prada handbags all day long, the issue only comes when you write Prada (or the logo) on it.