How to do very fine beads on pens and chess pieces

[steamingbill]

Hello,

First try at a chess piece attached - trying to copy the red one for my brother in law.

Pine from a crate.

Was interesting to work out the order of cuts. Usually I just doodle on the spindle, had a real job this time.

It was very messy, nearly tossed it away - decided to keep it to try superglue finish - it was astonishing how much the sandpaper tidied it up.

I suspect the original piece was either

a) made in a factory with a gigantic form tool that did the whole thing at once ?

b) Or maybe a person on a lathe of some sort making 100 of these a day and paid $2 per week ?

c) Other ?

How would you go about doing the very fine beads ? Most of them I left as flat wheels and then they rounded off nicely with a bit of sandpaper.

Should I do that that with the two that are very close together - either make a form tool or just get a lot better with a skew chisel or a parting tool (bedan ?)

Scale : Red piece 105mm x 35 at fattest , the 2 beads occupy a space of 4mm

Will keep trying with the superglue finish - but I reckon that thick red paint would be handy at hiding a few defects.

(and yes I missed some beads out - will put them in on 2nd try)

Bill

[chuck1]

I use a quarter by quarter inch skew for small turning! those small double beads look tricky!

[dai sensei]

I have a 6x3mm skew, 4mm spindle gouge and 3mm detail gouge for that sort of work in my mini kit, not that I have done much :-

[tea lady]

Tiny spindle gouge. Tiny parting tool. Tiny skew. Pine is a hard (as in difficult) timber to get detail in.

[brendan stemp]

Scrape them with a 3mm parting tool. This is what I did with the fine detail on the recorders, see pic. It is like using a small Bedan. By far the easiest way to do small beads but you do need to sharp tools and it works best with hard timbers. And there's nothing wrong with using a bit of sandpaper to refine the shape. Its all about the end result not how you get there.

[Mobyturns]

The answer will be in comparing the originals. So it would be interesting to see the original pieces side by side to see how much variation is in them. Some sets would have been made using a profile cutter/s on fine grained timbers, others completely hand cut by very skilled and practiced production turners working on piece rates.

Looks like you are well on your way to replicating the original. Nice work!

[dai sensei]

Scrape them with a 3mm parting tool....

Beads should be cut not scraped. Scraping may be ok with some of the fine grained hardwoods, but not with softwoods, it will fray/tear the beads.

[smiife]

Hi bill,
Try using a harder timber, just finished
a small finial, after 6 attempts using pine
most of them snapped at the last minute
used a hard timber and the skew and hey presto
it worked well, hope this helps
cheers smiife:2tsup:

[steamingbill]

Thanks for all the tips.

Today I made a tool to give me identical bobbles on top of all the pawns.

Works beatifully.

Was quite surprised - spent a while wondering about building some sort of ball jig then remembered reading about this tool.

See attached. Made by drilling a hole in the end of a bit of steel.

I put a great big handle on it to control it.


Bill

[brendan stemp]

Beads should be cut not scraped. Scraping may be ok with some of the fine grained hardwoods, but not with softwoods, it will fray/tear the beads.
Neal, I have proved that scraping in a very good technique (not just "ok") to use to create small beads. I have done it hundreds of times and only started sanding them with 240 grit, suggesting no tear out.

As I said originally, it is better to use harder timbers and sharp tools.

To try to do a bead that measures 1mm across with a skew would be ridiculous and to try to repeat it over and over would be even more so. Even for the more experienced turner.

For the average turner who is not at it day after day, repeating the same action over and over, rolling regular shaped beads with a skew is a hard task. Many can roll a bead with a skew but getting them to look the same is another matter. Most turners don't want to spend hours and hours practising a technique just so they can, for example, make a few chess pieces. This is why I often encourage the scraping technique. It is so much easier to duplicate shapes. This is why pattern makers used to use it all the time.

I agree that scraping will leave torn grain on some timbers (especially when the scraper ain't sharp) but this is more a matter of poor timber selection than anything else. To say "beads should be cut not scraped" is like suggesting a bowl should be cut and not scraped. Horses for courses, certain techniques for certain timbers and tasks, surely.

[rsser]

I recall one occasion when I pitted my Henry Taylor beading tool against with his spindle gouge. We were doing comparos on NIP which when really dry is hard to cut cleanly. The HT did the cleaner job despite working in 'scraping' mode.

In fact with a burr it's working in cutting mode.

Downsides of the HT: it's another tool in the kit and that's more cost; it takes a bit of skill to sharpen and needs regular touch-ups to restore the burr; it has a short shank and std grinder platforms need a temporary mod to work. Upside: it does regular shaped beads easily and quickly. It beats shaping beads with tools designed for other purposes by a country mile. I've tried 'em: big beads are doable; small ones take a deal of skill. More here: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/using-henry-taylor-beading-tools-106862/

Note this is not a 'beading and parting' tool and doesn't look like a Dale Nish beader (and if not there's something else to explore). It's rectangular in x-section with a flute milled on the top face. At the cutting edge the flute section is square to the shaft in plan view. The sides at the tip are ground at maybe 45 degrees to the shaft in plan view. Scraper angles apply. Looks like HT may have stopped making them anyway. Can't find them on their website. Wasted my breath :rolleyes:

[steamingbill]

This is interesting

Beading Tool (http://www.davidreedsmith.com/articles/beadingtool/beading_tool.htm)

and the cheapest version I found was

"Cheap and easiest ... large cheap flat bladed screwdriver can be had for £1, mount a 4.5" angle grinder disc on a 'jam mandrel' on the lathe, grind the profile you fancy in a minute or two, job done. At that price I can afford to make a few variations and treat them almost as consumables."

Captive ring home made tool : Wood Turning - Lathes - UKworkshop.co.uk (http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/captive-ring-home-made-tool-t67550.html)

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/download/file.php?id=9459&t=1

and some mentions of using a dremel tool to grind a hole in a screwdriver or chisel

nothing really took my fancy - anybody out there done anything different ?

Bill

[RETIRED]

Gooday Bill. Henry Taylor make a fluted parting tool. Parting & Beading Tools (http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Turning_Tools/Parting_Beading/parting_beading.html)

Ken Wraight uses one for that pupose. The Sorby equivalent is not sharp enough on the edges to leave a good cut.

When I can find my camera I will show you a cheat that I use for doing fine beads.

[powderpost]

Robert Sorby make a similar tool as well.

A little ? while back I had a job replicating small beads. I ground a 6mm spindle gouge at about 45 degrees but square, like a parting tool, this was then turned upside down with the flute underneath on the tool rest. It worked very well making exactly the same size beads nicely semicircular in shape.

Jim

[rsser]

Bill, your first link shows something that's close to the HT that was.

The tool that basically has a hole seen in plan on the bar I can't recommend. There's too much scraping going on with it to produce a clean result and keep in control.

Jim's spindle gouge mod sounds like a good option and should be scaleable.

[RETIRED]

Bill, I hope this helps and gives you some ideas.

Beads - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1kAWfQQg-o&feature=youtu.be)

[steamingbill]

Thanks ,

Thats a handy tip about coming in below centre with the hacksaw blade tool.

Was trying a few things this morning and making a right mess.

Will have another crack this evening.

Bill

[brendan stemp]

Bill, I hope this helps and gives you some ideas.

Beads - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1kAWfQQg-o&feature=youtu.be)

Good one

[Evanism]

a) made in a factory with a gigantic form tool that did the whole thing at once ?

b) Or maybe a person on a lathe of some sort making 100 of these a day and paid $2 per week ?

c) Other ?



I saw both A and C in YouTube videos. Do you think I can find them now!

With A, they had form cutters almost exactly the same as used on a spindle moulder. An arm held a block of wood, spun it up and in went another arm with the rotating moulder. Both seed to be oposing spinning at 20k rpm so the forces must have been amazing. Anyway, a millionth of a second and it was spat out and another one on.

Some dude just bands awed off the ends and used a belt like sander to tidy it up. Toss it into a box. They didn't show this dudes face though....it probably looked miserable.

With B, they had a pantoarm(?) that read off a blank with a bit on the end. Did 99% and a guy touched it up with sandpaper and sprayed it while on the lathe. Must have been NC, for about 3 seconds later he pulled it off and put it on a pile

[Tim the Timber Turner]

Robert Sorby make a similar tool as well.

A little ? while back I had a job replicating small beads. I ground a 6mm spindle gouge at about 45 degrees but square, like a parting tool, this was then turned upside down with the flute underneath on the tool rest. It worked very well making exactly the same size beads nicely semicircular in shape.

Jim

I have a number of these tools from 3mm to 10mm.

I found a 8mm P&N spindle gouge, ground like Jim described, is ideal for scraping a ring foot on a bowl or platter.

My method to do this is gentle pressure while raising and lowering the handle,
This is done a number of times, right on the centre line of the diameter.
This gentle action is sort of like going over centre and back again.
Doing it this way seems to put less pressure on the wood, resulting in less tear out.
There is very little pressure on the tool, in fact none of my bead cutters has a handle on them.
If you are going to try this the tool rest should be as close as possible to the work.
Keep in mind that this is being used on bottom of the foot, which is usually side grain.
I usually turn a number beads on the base, and with a parting tool, recess any areas between the beads.
The outside or largest bead should be proud of the rest of the foot so that the piece sits on this bead to prevent rocking.

Of course as Jim said they also work well on between centre work. better in harder wood of course.

With my typing speed it would have been quicker to go and take some photos.

If I catch up with Brendan maybe he could video the process?

Cheers

Tim:)

[steamingbill]

Started considering the knights today

found this thread - good idea make some sort of mushroom and cut away most of the cap.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/turned-chess-knight-rough-25927/

and this page

http://www.chessspy.com/articles/Lathe-Carved%20Knights.pdf - bottom of 2nd page

and have seen some great photos of carved knights but cannot find the best one again, have trawled through my history, no luck.

Bill

[Oldgreybeard]

Gooday Bill. Henry Taylor make a fluted parting tool. Parting & Beading Tools (http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Turning_Tools/Parting_Beading/parting_beading.html)

Ken Wraight uses one for that pupose. The Sorby equivalent is not sharp enough on the edges to leave a good cut.

When I can find my camera I will show you a cheat that I use for doing fine beads.

Bet it's in one of those new kitchen cabinets - all you have to do is remember which one. :U:U

[rsser]

Good vid .

FWIW with a formed beading tool in scraping presentation I've found that where possible a little side to side swing on the end of the handle as you go in leaves a cleaner finish. Will leave it up to the theorists to explain why that might be.

[rsser]

Just out of interest I got out the Sorby fluted parting tool in the kit.

IMO there's not enough curve in the 'flute' to make a decent bead. Such flute as there is, is not centred. That means there's a shoulder on one side. That could be dealt with by lapping; in fact the milling marks on both sides are gross and need work in order to cut cleanly as is claimed for this design in parting mode.

Mostly I've found Sorbys to be well finished.

[RETIRED]

I was being tactful about the Sorby. :wink:

[dr4g0nfly]

I made my own 3mm fluted parting tool with a bit of 3mm HSS and a diamond needle file. I've never tried it on very large turnings, but for small things like lace bobbing it works very well.