Grinding wheel "bounce"

[philly]

Hi all....

Have been turning for a couple of years nearly and have never been happy with my tool sharpening. My wheels seem to run "out of true" when not very old and am wondering whether its the grinder (it is a ryobi after all!...) thats not running straight. When i present a tool to the wheel (ive gone through about 4) the tool tends to bounce off the wheel rather than sit on it. Not only does this not grind the tool but its bloody dangerous!

Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers

Phil

[DanP]

Get a wheel dresser and dress it true.

[philly]

Hi Dan...

Nah... I dress it whenever I use it and it still goes off. Sorry I should have mentioned that in the original post. I think its something altogether more sinister!

[Ashore]

I dress it whenever I use it and it still goes off. Sorry I should have mentioned that in the original post. I think its something altogether more sinister!You can get a bounce effect if the material you are grinding is too thin ie 2mm plate on a coarse wheel and the edge digs into the wheel
This can also happen if the angle of the material to the wheel is incorrect the material is pressed too hard onto the wheel and the tool digs in to the wheel
or if the material vibrates and flexes then digs in.

As you are sharpening lathe tools that don't flex and I take it these are wood working tools ,then perhaps your angle of approach to the grinding wheel is too sharp and you may find there are better methods of sharpening the tools.

The trouble with life is there's no background music.

[rodm]

Quote : the tool tends to bounce off the wheel rather than sit on it

Phil,
Are you using a tool rest on the grinder?

[Studley 2436]

Phil I would have a look at the wheel you are using. Wheels are graded by the grit (coarseness) speed they run at the hardness of the abrasive and the hardness of the bonding agent. Because you said you are on your fourth wheel I am guessing that you have a coarse silicon carbide wheel that you can get off the shelf from any hardware store. These wheels are best for grinding back mild steel that has been cut with a saw. That is cleaning up the dags. If you cut something with an oxy torch they aren't too bad but usually not hard enough. For tool steel as in a Woodwork chisel you need a finer wheel. This could be the reason it bites and "bounces" back at you. The coarse wheel is suddenly grabs at the chisel then chucks it out. I am not sure what hardness they make turning chisels to. Normal woodworking chisels sharpen very nicely on the various handstones. I would recomend these hand stones to finish the blade off once you have done the rough grinding on a grinder. You may not need to use the bench grinder all the time although they are often useful depending how much of you need to grind it down to bring the edge back.

As rodm said using the rest is crucial. You can hold the chisel on the rest and by altering the pressure of your hand squeeze it in against the wheel. It helps too to set the rest to the angle you want the blade to be, so you have a guide to get you to the right place.

There are catalogues from the various abrasive manufacturers with specifics on their grinding wheels. You can find in them easily the wheel that will suit your needs and that might be all your problem is.

Good luck with all that

Stevo

[Don Nethercott]

I think Studley is on the right track.

You don't say what size wheel you have - you should have an 8 inch wheel - the 6" has too much angle on it.

The best grinding wheels for HSS are white in colour - They are aluminium oxide.

Don

[Mulgabill]

Hi Philly,

I had a similar experience and found it was caused by the nylon bush that came with the grinding wheel. I replaced the original bush with a better quality one which fixed the problem. I have been told that some guys turn-up their own.

[rsser]

Yep. I'm with Russell. Duff bushes sounds likely. Are they the same width as the wheel? Any slop? - test by pulling the cover off and push/pull at 180 degrees.

Or washer under the nut not bearing down evenly on the wheel.

[ubeaut]

Get a new wheel and put it on. Rotate it with the tool rest in place and see if it gets closer to the rest as turned. If so loosen of the nut and turn the wheel 1/4 turn lock the nut and rotate wheel again, keep doing this until the smallest amount of movement is detected between wheel and rest then repeat either way with 1/8 turn until wheel runs true or as close as possible. Lock the nut firmly for the last time and use a good diamond dresser to finish off. (you will get a truer dressing with a diamond dresser than with a block or star wheel dresser)

Your tool rest really needs to be rock solid for dressing as a flimsy rest can also help to put the wheel out of round and actually magnify the problem. When sharpening turning tools it is best to use the tool rest as a hand rest and grind freehand especially if the toolrest isn't rock solid.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :)

PS I only ever use the toolrest for sharpening a skew chisel that needs to have an new angel or bevel put on it and only for initial sharpening even then I will more often than not do it freehand, all sharpening after that is done freehand as is all my gouge sharpening, using the toolrest as a hand rest.

Doing it this way they never get hot and they always have 1 constant bevel without a lot of facets.

[ubeaut]

Almost forgot. I also had a set of flanges (the big washers that go either side of the wheel) specially turned for my grinders by an engineer, so they always run true amny of the cheaper ones are only pressed metal discs and can get a little out of wack. A little out of wack at high revs can mean a lot out of wack.

I also cut washers out of blotting paper and use these between the wheel and the flanges, they help to give the flanges better seating on the wheel.

[JackoH]

What Neil said. Blotting paper being a fairly rare household item these days, you can also cut them out of thick kitchen paper.

[philly]

Wow!
This one went off....

Thanks for all your replies. I did neglect to mention a few details didnt I?
I am using the correct white and pink wheels at about 60 grit, with a uni-jig, not a solid rest. I think the problem *could* be the bushes. Neil....I did indeed do the sort of thing you suggested and put a ruler across the wheel, leaning on the guard and spun the wheel and it does indeed make a rub at one point. I have tried dressing with one of those black blocks. Sometimes I have found this makes things worse (which could suggest Im pushing the wheel to a different point on the spindle if the bushes are loose?) Its very frustrating when the wheel hammers on the tool as sometimes it causes the tool to slip in the uni-jig which buggers up my grind somewhat. I find the plastic tightening wheel pretty flimsy on jig and the knurls are pretty non-existent. Maybe its time for a re-think! I'll get a diamond dresser tomorrow and let you know how it goes. Thanks again everyone.
Phil

[philly]

Oh yeah....

Its an 8" wheel.

[rsser]

Phil, there's no point in dressing the wheel if there's slop in the bushes or the mount.

I was once sold a 1" thick wheel with 3/4" bushes; after dressing it would work for a bit but then run out of true.

(BTW The carborundum stick is for roughening the wheel surface so it's more abrasive.)

[ubeaut]

Don't push the dresser hard against the wheel as it will only make it worse. Lock it into place on the tool rest and slowly take it into the wheel little by little you should get a knocking to begin with then this will get less and less as the wheel is ground away by the dresser until eventually the wheel runs smooth.

This process could take some time but should work eventually, however you may end up with a 7" wheel instead of 8".

[soundman]

I picked up a bargin grinder a little while ago. The flange washers on one side are so bad If you put a saw balde between en you'd cut dovetails.
A mate just baught a metal lathe, so a set of precision flanges are on the card. & I recon some precision bushes.
cheers

[MikeO]

If you have trued the wheels with a dresser and still get bounce, likely you need to balance the wheels. It's the same principle as balancing wheels on your car with weights at strategic locations.

Oneway makes a very effective balancing kit specifically for grinders. I manage a Woodcraft store in the US (Delaware) and customers who have tried this kit claim it eliminates wheel bounce for a far smoother tool edge (of course, must use a sharpening jig for best results).

Also, we've just starting carrying a similar generic version at our stores. Hope this helps....and isn't too much of a commercial.

[philly]

Went out yesterday and bought a new diamond dresser and although the wheel still doesnt run "true" ( as you can see if you spin it manually) it does seem to have stopped the "bounce". I now have some sharp turning tools!

Thanks to all those that replied to my post.

Phil

[woodhog]

norton abrasives website has instruction on how to dress a wheel

[Gil Jones]

MikeO,
Are you selling a "generic" grinding wheel balancing kit at your Woodcraft store?
I am not trying to put us in a bind here with advertising and such, so just give me an email address, as I am interested. I am at [email protected]. Located in far Southwest Georgia, on Lake Seminole, USA.