Round windows, work in progress.

[artful bodger]

Lost count of how many of these I have made for various joinery's and individuals over the years however current renovations on my own place require some new windows so the decision has been made to make some round ones. Firstly cause I can, secondly it'd be nice to have some for prospective clients to see so they get an idea of what they might hopefully be buying.
This thread will explain how to go about making them.
So the mission is 2 window frames of 1 metre dia, made from western red cedar....a proven weather hardy timber.
First step is to draw an accurate section.
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You might want to click on picture to get a better view. The window frame will be made up of 4 rows of segments, each row with 8 segments. For smaller windows you can get away with 6 segments per row but as western red cedar is generally available in 150mm x 45mm boards we are going with 8 segments per row.
Once the drawing is done the next step is to make a template so the segments can be cut out. A trammel set is the ideal tool for this, its sort of like a big pair of dividers on a stick. I am marking it out on a 3mm bit of MDF. 3mm has been added to the finished outside diameter and subtracted from the inside diameter so that there is a turning and construction allowance to achieve the 1metre final diameter.
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The template is cut out and then disc sanded as accurately as possible.
Since the final width of the window frame is 140mm the cedar boards have been machined to 35.5mm thick (35.5 x 4 rows of segments=142mm). This will give a turning allowance of approx 2mm.
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Template is then used to mark out the 64 segments required for each window.2 segments fit comfortably across a 150mm wide board.
Then it's a matter of bandsawing each segment out cutting as close to the line as you can on the inside and outside diameters.
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The ends of each segment are cut slightly oversize....say 1-2mm.This leaves room for fitting together later.
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Here are the 64 segments eagerly awaiting construction
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Next step is to select a suitable sized faceplate. I have several for different sized windows
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ranging from 1200mm to about 600mm dia. This one is a tad over 1 metre so its ideal.
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It's good practice to true up the face so its nice and flat. Faceplates like these tend to warp a bit over time when unused. No need to true up the whole face, just where you will be working. A straight edge confirms its true.
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Then the diameters of the segment are marked on the faceplate while the lathe is spinning with the trammels.This gives a precise marking of where the segments will be built up.
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Now we are ready to build up the segments. As each segment end is disc sanded to fit its a good idea to set up the faceplate in a horizontal position near the disc sander. (saves on walking).
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Note the pack of pinchdogs on faceplate centre. The first row of segments are disc sanded on the ends for a good fit and then skew nailed with panel pins on the inside diameter only. This first row will have the rebate for the glass turned out of it so the nail holes will disappear on the end job.
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This picture shows first segment skew nailed to the face plate smack bang in the diameter lines that were marked previously. The second segment is then disc sanded on the end so that it fits the first one (thats where the 1-2mm allowance when bandsawing the segment ends works a treat). A good old pinchdog is then hammered in to clamp the first segment to the next so that the second one can be skew nailed in place. Then its just a matter of continuing on. When you get to the last segment of the row one end is disc sanded so that it corresponds nicely to the first segment.
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OOPS Righty ho! seems I have reached the limit of how many pictures you can up load here. Will post this and continue shortly.

[artful bodger]

Now where were we?
Yes! the last segment of the first row.
Once the last segment has been disc sanded to correspond with the first one you can mark the final cut from the underside.Then its bandsawn and sanded for a mighty tight fit.
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You might have noticed the slithers of newspaper that have been placed under the segment glue joints. These are to stop the frame from sticking to the face plate with excess glue. Anyway we now have the first row of segments built up.
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The second row happens next and it goes pretty well like the first except these ones are screwed down as well. The screws on the first row are put in further towards the outside diameter as the rebate for the glass needs to be turned on the inside diameter and you dont want to come across the screws when turning.
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When you see glue squished out of the whole joint line when you put em in you know it will make for a good joint.
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Then the 3rd row.
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And lastly the 4th row.
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Because the 4th and final row will be visible on the inside of the room when finished the screw holes are countersunk with a 10mm dowell drill so that they can be plugged later on. All the previous screw holes were roughly countersunk with a hand countersink gouge as they wont be seen.
So here it is, window number one built up. Ready to turn after glue dries. One more to build up first beforehand.
If anyone is still awake? I have used Kliebeit 303 glue which is a highly water resistant glue. You could of course use epoxy but it stinks and is not nice to use.
Will post the turning process after I build up the next one.......It might be a week or two as I have impatient clients wanting other jobs urgently which is always nice.
To finish, this build up process took a pretty casual day, if you were hard pressed and got up at a "Sparrows" you could probably build both windows up in a day but hey, this is Tasmania!

[artme]

A very thorough WIP you have going here Bodger!!!:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

I await the final product with interest.

[chuck1]

wow very interesting! what sort of lathe will you be turning it on? I'm not a fan of the dust off W.R.C with out fail my nose will run! as you mentioned great for out doors! can't wait to see the end result!

[ian]

Hi Bodger

I appreciate that you have access to a very large faceplate -- but why use a lathe when a router and template would seem a much quicker and simpler option

[fubar]

thanks for this post keep them coming

[Blocklayer]

Is this Curved Molding calculator of any use in working out possible segment sizes?

http://www.blocklayer.com/Curved-Molding.aspx

If it is, could it be modified to better suit circular window frames?

:

[artful bodger]

Built up the second window frame today, in just under 4 hours. It went a bit quicker as face plate had been trued,work station was all in place and everything primed to go.
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Just to back peddle for a bit, I meant to have the following shot included in previous post regarding the last segment in each row. The pinchdogs by design pull one bit of timber to another so when you get to the last segment of each row notice how they are angled inwards. This pulls the final segment towards the inside of the frame, preventing a sort of "tug o war" between the two dogs. I have used a couple of smaller ones here...."pinchpuppies".
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Now on to the questions...
Chuck1
The lathe is one that had been specially made inhouse at the Montpellier foundry and engineering works in Hobart for their pattern shop. I bought it at auction when the place closed down somewhere around 1988 ish.
It's a cracking lathe with heavy duty bearings. Thread for faceplates is 1 1/2 inch which is bigger than the wadkin pattern lathes. You can turn up to 800mm dia on the inside and outboard up to 2.2 metres dia. My largest faceplate for outside work is 1200mm dia but if needed it would not be a problem to make a bigger one. Longest spindle length is close to 2.2 metres (wadkin wins in that respect). I am not convinced with the tailstock design on this one but it has never let me down.
It's got 8 speeds, the slowest is really slow. I'm only guessing here but I reckon somewhere between 100-200rpm. Which makes it ideal for larger faceplate work.
I think it's a nice touch that its got an on off switch on both ends of the lathe as well.
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Also shows great insight in construction when you look at the pulleys, there are spare belts mounted inside the bearings so if a belt lets go you dont have to disassemble everything to change it.....that is pretty cool.
Ian, I find your question a little perplexing regarding a router and template being a much quicker and simpler solution.
In a nutshell, I guess it comes down to training.
I served my patternmaking apprenticeship for a company in Sydney that made mining equipment. They made seriously big stuff. They had a hydraulically powered faceplate lathe that was capable of turning enormous patterns (makes mine seem like a miniature). I got my fair share of work on it and saw lots of other things turned by other fellow workers on it. All made pretty well to the tee by the method I have described previously. Also at Sydney technical college(probably now TAFE), that's the way we were taught to make such things, was never urged to use a router and template at work or tech. Several years later when studying "furniture design" at the Uni of Tasmania one of the lecturers bought in a round window he had made with a router. He had made it from plywood and then veneered the visible surfaces. It looked pretty good and was of a similar design to the one I have been posting about(reasonably square in section). It must have had some sort of rebate in it for the glass to fit into, can't remember clearly. When he was describing the lengths he had gone to make it,jigs,templates,etc my thoughts were struth! wouldn't it be easier to turn the thing?
Perhaps one of the advantages of using the segmented and turned method is that it has a more flexible adaptation to the particular design of the desired window, for example when you look at a window like these two 311002
Or perhaps this one311003
Or to a slightly lesser extent this one 311004 where the section of the window is also close to round,well, I invite you to make one similar and much quicker with your router and to get an A1 finish that sanding on a lathe will give.
I did not state that making one this way was the only or best way to go about it. Am happy to be convinced otherwise.
If you asked a blacksmith to make you one they would surely use metal. A fibreglasser would probably use fibreglass. That's what they have been trained in.
Don't mean to sound arrogant here Ian, just an honest answer to your question.
Cheers

[Willy Nelson]

Wow, this is a different thread to the usual offerings, keep going, very interested and thanks
Sincerely
Willy

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

This is wonderful stuff, a nice change to bowls, bowls and more bowls. :D

I'm watching with great interest... as a mate of mine is about to start on a roundel window (a bullseye in a brick-wall) and odds are good I'll be asked to make the frame, so your posts have turned up in a very timely manner for me. ;)

I love the idea of using pinch-dogs like that. Much quicker & simpler than holding with wooden blocks! Now I'll have to try to source some...

The only part I'm not sure about is the beading to retain the glass. Do you make your own, bend straight lengths or possibly turn a solid "donut" to slip in instead?

(I'm thinking that the outside architrave could double as beading to simplify things, depending on how deeply the glass is recessed. :think: )

[artful bodger]

This is wonderful stuff, a nice change to bowls, bowls and more bowls. :D

I'm watching with great interest... as a mate of mine is about to start on a roundel window (a bullseye in a brick-wall) and odds are good I'll be asked to make the frame, so your posts have turned up in a very timely manner for me. ;)

I love the idea of using pinch-dogs like that. Much quicker & simpler than holding with wooden blocks! Now I'll have to try to source some...

The only part I'm not sure about is the beading to retain the glass. Do you make your own, bend straight lengths or possibly turn a solid "donut" to slip in instead?

(I'm thinking that the outside architrave could double as beading to simplify things, depending on how deeply the glass is recessed. :think: )

Hi Skewdamn
Nice to hear the thread comes at a useful time.
There are 2 joinery's here in Hobart who I make the bulk of these windows for, both specialise in cedar windows.
The joinery who gives me the most work don't ask for any beading, the other one usually does......so I ether make them up some mini segments (thin ones) that they must tack on to the outside of the glass or I at least give them a template so they can cut their own to the right size.
The joinery who does not ask for any simply uses silicone.
I have already put one smaller round window (that I had kicking about) in the room where the 2 in this thread are also going to go. I used silicone to stick the glass to the internal window frame rebate and when that had dried used what they call in the pattern trade a "fillet rubber" and a bit of masking tape to apply a neat 1/4 radius of silicone to the outside of the glass. It's worked a treat.
As the 2 windows in this thread are going into the same room I would be happy to show the installation as well as the making. There should not be any need for external or internal architraves.
Cheers

[Paul39]

Artful,

Thanks for the tutorial on round windows. I'm most impressed with your lathe. It appears to be cut out of steel plate then welded together and machined. Any idea of the weight?

[China]

A interesting alternative method to the traditional procedure of window construction

[Hardenfast]

As other have said, great post AB!

Very instructive WIP set showing a nice combination of disciplines, including band-saw work, joinery, segmenting and of course turning. Most impressive. Gives me some ideas of my own as I have stacks of Western Red in various sizes all reclaimed - much of it large section-sizes from big door jambs etc. Just goes to show - never throw anything out.

Looks like something I could do on the Hegner VB36.... if I ever get it out it's packing crate.

Wayne

[artful bodger]

Artful,

Thanks for the tutorial on round windows. I'm most impressed with your lathe. It appears to be cut out of steel plate then welded together and machined. Any idea of the weight?

Hi Paul. The lathe is indeed fabricated out of steel, not cast.
Had a bit of a closer look today armed with a rule and I can tell you that the bed of the lathe is made from right angle steel that in section measures 150mm x150mm x 15mm thick. The bed has not been machined, as I guess the steel was true enough in the first place.
As for the weight? that's a tough one....
I had it delivered on a truck that had a crane on it. The truck driver managed to just get it in the workshop and push it in a bit with the crane. Its stayed in the same spot ever since, apart from jacking it up a bit to get the bed level to compensate for the un-level concrete slab. No way I could lift one end of it or move it at all by myself.
Also I don't have a set of scales that could weigh it. I do have however a set of wool bale scales, so for interest sakes weighed the tail stock today. It weighed 112 lbs or 51 kilos.

Hi hardenfast
Quote/ "Gives me some ideas of my own as I have stacks of Western Red in various sizes all reclaimed - much of it large section-sizes from big door jambs etc. Just goes to show - never throw anything out."

Yeah, its a bit of a bonus that you can use off cuts from other jobs to make these things, for this window the offcuts only need to be about 400mm long. Reckon there would be window manufacturers out there who would sling bits that length into the dumpster without a seconds thought.

[Paul39]

Artful,

According to this: http://www.turnersteelcoinc.com/html/s_angles.html

6 X 6 X 5/8 steel angle weighs 24.2 pounds per foot. I would not be surprised if your lathe weighed more than 1000 pounds. You have a treasure.

[DaveTTC]

Thoroughly enjoyed the read.

I happen to have a router device made by a retired engineer that drives itself and can do circles and ovals. It just needs to have the cutter lowered with each revolution.

All in all I dont know that my router set up would work as quick as the lathe.

I have some octagonal windows in my house, round ones would have far less movement.

As I type you have me thinking, How to make an opening round window? Guess the only way would be a centre pivot. Fly screens would be a pain. Oh you got my creative juices flowing. These threads are so good as they make me think outside the box.

I have an idea for a pivot window with winder and fly screens.


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

[artful bodger]

Thoroughly enjoyed the read.



As I type you have me thinking, How to make an opening round window? Guess the only way would be a centre pivot. Fly screens would be a pain. Oh you got my creative juices flowing. These threads are so good as they make me think outside the box.

I have an idea for a pivot window with winder and fly screens.


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

Hi Dave, as it happens I do have a few opening ones in my shed awaiting a future project and yes they do pivot from a central cross beam. I have seen another opener where the glass fits into external tracks and it can be rolled open by a knob fixed to the glass.

[DaveTTC]

Hope you do a build on the opening ones at some point


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

[artful bodger]

Managed to sneak in a bit of time to turn these windows between the paying jobs, so here is the latest update.
312352 First the built up segments are clamped as accurately as possible to the face plate then screwed on with 100m x 14 gauge hex head screws.
312353 To start the turning I like to true up the outside face first, the aim is to get it as parrallel as you can to the faceplate.
312354 By using a straight edge that goes right across the window frame you can see how your going and adjust your cuts accordingly.
312355 Once the face is true its time to tackle the outside diameter. For interests sake, the pedestal tool rest I am using is very heavy however the concrete slab on which it sits is not perfectly flat. A wobbly tool rest is a recipe for disaster and you should be able to see in this picture that I have chocked the pedestal underside with a steel rule to eliminate any wobblyness.
312356 Time to skim the outside diameter now. I am not claiming these windows are huge in size but at 1 metre dia they are larger than your average turning and require certain method with the tools. It's not like roughing down say 100mm x100mm posts between centers where you can pretty well slide your roughing gouge or whatever with reckless abandon(for want of a better term) swiftly from one end of the tool rest to the other and back again. On the contrary. Although the lathe speed is pretty slow the diameter of the work means a pretty high tool speed so very slow and even movements of the chisel are the safest way to go here.
312358 You can check the outside diameter for squareness using the straightedge and square.
312359Outside diameter is now done.
312360 Inside diameter next. Using a scraper here but you can use a bowl gouge if you prefer.....
312361 Don't think there are any rules here, just use what works for you.
312362 The trickiest part is turning where the frame meets the faceplate. Your right on the end of the toolrest and its a good idea to go carefully. Using a scraper thats been ground to do the job.
312363Once the inside diameter is done then the rebate for the glass is cut out and then it's just a matter of sanding the job.
312364A sanding block like this one works a treat. You use the flat side for the outside diameter and the rounded face for the inside diameter.
I realise that showing all this with pictures and descriptions may leave a bit to the imagination. Its nice to read things in books,forums etc but there is nothing like seeing it done in the flesh(so to speak). So for a special treat I have uploaded a video to youtube where you can hopefully watch this turning process in motion. Hope the link works.
Here it is...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7rWSl0koQw
As usual any comments, scathing criticisms or questions are most welcome.

[artful bodger]

Seems like some time ago that I added to this post, the finishing took quite some time. For these 2 windows I went for a marine grade varnish that required 5 coats!, and each coat needed some time to dry in the cooler climate down here.
Anyway, once the windows are ready to go I have marked the centre of the opening in the stud frame work and drilled a small hole right through the cladding. From the outside of the wall a set of trammels are used to mark the circle on the cladding, I have marked the circle with a 2mm clearance all round.
313989 The 2mm clearance all round is just the way I decided to go about it. No doubt if 10 different people had to do the job there would be different courses of action. As flashing a round window is problematic what I am after is a watertight seal. These windows have no eaves over them and will be exposed to extreme weather conditions.
Back on the inside of the room the windows are fixed to the studwork with suitable screws. The next picture shows the part of the window that protrudes through the wall. A weatherproof weatherboard gap filler has been squirted into the 2mm gap and then leveled flush with a putty knife. Have also used masking tape to keep the gap filler off the window frame where it protrudes from the wall.
313990 While waiting for the gap filler to dry, it's time to stick the glass in. Have glued it onto the rebate with silicone. The glass has been cut with a 3mm clearance all round to allow for possible movement of the frame. Have used 3 spacers here which will be removed when the initial silicone glue dries.
313991 Out of the picture there is a lump of wood leaning against the glass to hold it in place while the silicone sets. By this time the gap filler has skinned off enough to be able to paint over it. Have removed masking tape after 1st coat of paint and then re-masked for the second coat. The result is a pretty tidy weatherproof seamless joint.
313992 By this time the silicone has set enough on the glass to hold it in place, the spacers are taken out and then a neat quarter radius of silicone is applied to the outside of the glass using a fillet rubber of the right size. This one has been made from a bit of 3mm aluminium. I did mask off the window frame before putting the silicone in to avoid mess. So the following shot is of the fillet rubber and the finished silicone.
313993 So that's pretty well that! 2 shots of installed windows.........
313994313995 Oh yeah, just for interests sake here is a picture of the internal stud frame work in case anyone was wondering.
313996 Still have to put in the internal lining yet. Will probably make a template of the outside diameter of the window frame so that it can be used to mark out on the timber panneling where the cuts have to go.

[Christos]

What a fantastic job. I am glad you posted a photo of the internal stud work as I had trouble picturing it.

[Paul39]

Artful,

Thank you for the education. First class job, start to finish.

[Yawally]

That is one very inspirational thread, thankyou for putting all that effort into sharing what must be a very satisfying job. Loved the video as well.:2tsup:

[JDarvall]

Thanks. enjoyed reading your process.

What other window shapes have you've done ? …. Guessing if they come to you for circles then you've got requests for other shapes. ovals ? love hearts ? suppose once the job gets away from the lathe it get a bit pricey.

ps. Got any spare pinch dogs you wanna sell ?

[artful bodger]

Hi Apricotripper. Must admit I have not made other shapes apart from round and square/rectangular. However using the segmented construction method (which is a really strong way of making them)you could really make them any shape you wanted like love hearts, ovals or even a big smiley face to go under the 2 round ones with eyebrows too boot!.....any shape you facied really. etc. The thing is you would have to somehow clean up the glued together segments once they have been made. It is all very possible considering how soft and easy to carve western red cedar is but it'd take a bit of time to do it compared to turning them. Yep! once it gets away from the lathe the price would go up. On the other hand there seems to be folk out there where price is irrelevant. Also if they are for your own place...who cares how long they might take to make, not as if you are going to charge/bill yourself!.

"Quote. Got any spare pinch dogs you wanna sell ? "

I don't have a pregnant "pinchbitch" in tow right now so cant help you there..... BUT...have seen them made from steel plate and am sure they would be easy to make. They are only really a square U section in profile with tapered internal sides( maybe say 10 degrees) on the inside of the bits that are hammered in.

[JDarvall]

"pinchbitch"

Pinchbitch ! …. your attempts at humour are almost as bad as mine.

Don't you have a bucket full of them somewhere that you've been keeping for a rainy day on the chance some bloke asks if you have any to sell ? honestly. very inconsiderate.

:)

hey thanks for the effort with all those photos. I found it easy to read.

cheers.

[chuck1]

I would like to see a mouth shape window under the two round ones! But the glass would be pricey! Great job I must say!
I want to put vents in the gable end of the house! Might go with round instead of triangle!

[artful bodger]

Managed to sneak in a few hours last week to finish the inside of house, part of windows installation.
To start with, since blizzards and howling icy winds are a feature here in the winter and early spring, insulation is a must.
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Back in about 1990 when I was working with a bunch of blokes building pole frame houses, from Celery Top Pine! I bought a pack of reject grade myrtle panelling. I think it was reject grade because it might have had too much figuring, or a borer hole here, or some other equally abhorrent defection there,not straight grained etc,etc. So thought I might as well use and enjoy a bit of it before the inevitable.
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Nowdays you'd be lucky to buy a splinter of either Celery top pine or Myrtle as the "Orrible Green movement" seems to be calling the shots down here in Tassie. Jeez I could go on here but I wont.
Anyway back to the installation. Made a simple template of the outside diameter for the 2 larger windows and 1 smaller one out of 3mm MDF and used that to mark the corresponding radius on each bit of panelling. Used a jigsaw to cut the radius. A bit painstaking but the end result was pretty good. No need for architraves around windows.
Photo quality here is pretty average. The entry room is only 3.2 m x 2m and I dont have a wide angle lense for my camera.

[Sawdust Maker]

Mate

thanks for this thread, even if I came in late
nice work, sorry very nice work

and that second grade myrtle looks brilliant

[dai sensei]

Looks great :cool::2tsup:

[DaveTTC]

That Looks special


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art