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Bob Smalser
29th June 2005, 11:30 AM
Have you tested your favorite wood glue to see if it can be reglued successfully should either your work be damaged, or a cross-grain glue joint fail with age and seasonal movement?

In 4 decades as a woodworker, I’ve done a good bit of conservation, repair and restoration work, including pieces in a few federal museums both here and overseas. As I pass what I know down to my boys, included will be what I know about glues. I know that some glue types can’t be glued over, often requiring new wood to be let in during repairs, and the joint recut. I discovered that the hard way some decades ago restoring furniture, and simply switched to other glues for all my work. Since then, those glues I rejected may have been reformulated; plus there are a number of new glues worth checking out, so to make sure I’m not providing bad or outdated advice, it’s time to check out the current crop of wood glues for repairability.

I make no pretenses toward science, here…this is all anecdotal based on experience, not chemistry…all I want to show is whether marine epoxy will adhere to the glue lines or residue of the various wood glues during repairs. You can look up strength and other test data in your USDA Wood Handbook; I care about repairability because I’ve never seen any test or even anecdotal data on anything but hide glue in that regard, and it’s important if your work is to survive beyond typical damage and wear and tear over time. I chose epoxy as the regluing agent because it’s the usual choice in professional structural repair work and it adheres to a greater number of diverse substances than any other wood glue I know of. In fact, it usually rebonds a failed but fully cured glue joint much better than the original glue, and as it also bonds to itself very well, epoxy is a good, repairable choice for many applications.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/101844452.jpg

On identical tiles of freshly planed, vertical grain, second-growth Doug Fir, I saturated the faying surfaces with glue and let them cure to full strength by the manufacturer’s instructions for time and temperature….

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/102357580.jpg

…then I keyed each faying surface with 100-grit abrasive paper, reglued them with marine epoxy, and “clamped” the assemblies to the degree favored by epoxy. For glues that left a rough surface like polyurethane, the epoxy was applied twice…an unthickened coat followed by a second coat thickened with West 404 High-Adhesive Thickener, per the manufacturer’s instructions. I let the epoxy cure for 6 days to reach full strength.

I purposely chose small blocks of wood with easily broken short grain because strength here isn’t the issue, adherence is, and I can check adherence using a sharp chisel without trying to break long glue joints in a press. Of greater concern was that the glues to be tested were applied without any clamping pressure, but as it turned out, several glues that require high clamping pressure fared very well, so I believe the results are reasonably valid.


The results offered no surprises.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/102357565.jpg

The epoxy thoroughly adhered to the strongest of the off-the-shelf glues, the 2-part resorcinol, breaking completely at the wood rather than the glue line. Attempts to slip the chisel between the glue lines revealed a thorough and unified bond between all three layers of glue.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/102368835.jpg

Epoxy on epoxy showed similar results……and so did liquid polyurethane (Elmer’s Ultimate)…

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/102368841.jpg

…and powdered urea formaldehyde plastic resin glue.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/102357570.jpg

Titebond, a Poly Vinyl Acetate glue, however, broke some wood but failed the chisel test…. the chisel easily separated the two layers of Titebond, indicating poor adherence of the epoxy in between.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/102357764.jpg

Titebond II broke even less wood, with poor adherence…

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/102357761.jpg

…and Titebond III, while a much stronger glue, still did not adhere to the epoxy.

The implications of all this can be minor if we are talking about a first-effort coffee table….but they can be serious if we are talking about a strip-planked boat hull made of 1 X 1 strips glued together using an unrepairable glue. Picture the requirement to feather in a large patch to repair hull damage, and you can see that patch will be pinstriped with unsound repair at every glue line, leading to early failure.

You can draw your own conclusions. Mine are that the work most easily restored is often the work that survives the longest, that you may not care about longevity, but that may break you granddaughter’s heart some day, and I’d check out my glue choices thoroughly before committing them to any 20-hour high-end project, let alone a 700-hour project.

NewLou
29th June 2005, 12:49 PM
Fasinating article Bob,

I love the way you write about real world applications and share your wealth of knowledge with forums like ours!!!...............As always something to learn; something to consider!!!


Please Please Please ..................................... Keep coming Back!!!!


Regards Lou :)

AlexS
29th June 2005, 07:58 PM
Thanks again, Bob, your articles are always useful, straightforward & easy to read.

Driver
29th June 2005, 10:26 PM
Thanks, Bob. Really useful, practical information - once again!

Richardwoodhead
30th June 2005, 02:06 AM
Bob, you put a LOT of work into that. Much appreciated. Very informative.

Richard

Bob Smalser
1st July 2005, 04:43 AM
http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/102705370.jpg

Looks like I got the thick Hotstuff brand cyanoacrylate glue to adhere to the aliphatic Titebonds.

I'll do some more testing with it, but the problem is that cyano is so durn brittle that while it might repair a sliver or a layup, it is totally worthless to repair joints subject to seasonal movement or shock. One bump to that table leg and its reglued mortise and tenon joint will break again.

Bob Smalser
5th July 2005, 04:45 PM
For you boat builders out there....a seperate test:


Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
...and as I know 5200 loses adherence when used as a glue below the waterline, I suspect your cheaper PL Premium construction adhesive will also. My test layups go under the dock Friday morning and I'll let you know in a couple weeks or months.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/103149991.jpg

kiwigeo
5th July 2005, 05:16 PM
Looks like I got the thick Hotstuff brand cyanoacrylate glue to adhere to the aliphatic Titebonds.

I'll do some more testing with it, but the problem is that cyano is so durn brittle that while it might repair a sliver or a layup, it is totally worthless to repair joints subject to seasonal movement or shock. One bump to that table leg and its reglued mortise and tenon joint will break again.

Hi Bob,

I dont think the shear strength of that cyano is too "hot" and like you say it is brittle stuff. I use it in my guitar building but mainly for filling in blemishes and pin holes in visible wood surfaces. Id also use it to fill gaps where top braces butt against each other....it has a beneficial effect on acoustic properties of the soundboard. Only other use I can think of is to hold the fingerboard nut in place but when the instrument is strung up to playing tension the strings hold the nut down anyway.

Bob Smalser
16th December 2005, 10:45 AM
http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/120863727.jpg

The WRC heartwood test layup that included resorcinol, West System epoxy, liquid polyurethane, 3M 5200, and PL Premium polyurethane construction adhesive was pulled from the pond water after 6 months of submersion, cleaned, and a sample removed from one end and resoaked while the large end was allowed to air dry.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/120863728.jpg

There were no differences in adhesion between the sample allowed to dry and the one that remained soaked.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/120863725.jpg

Destructive testing showed that all the products tested continued to bond strongly after 6 months of submersion. The 3M 5200 poly sealant and PL Premium poly construction adhesive, when applied without clamping pressure, lost adhesion in saturated cedar…but with a clamping pressure suitable for resorcinol, their bonds remained strong.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/120863724.jpg

The “saturated” cedar test layup stabilized at only 24% EMC when corrected for species and temperature. I expected a bit higher reading, but this is consistent with the 30% moisture content of cedar heartwood in the log and the 21% of submerged bilge planking protected by paint. Cedar logs do sink, however, and remain sunk long after their heavier sapwood has rotted away. So this test layup goes back in the water to see if more time will provide a higher reading. I also intend to do another layup of White Oak, which I suspect will rise to over 30% EMC with saturation.

General Notes on Glues and Goos


Resorcinol: The marine standard. If you can get 70 degrees F or higher for an overnight cure and consistent and high clamping pressure with no gaps, you won’t go wrong using it. Likes wood at 10-15% EMC, according to Navy tests. Long open time. Repairable with epoxy. Ugly red glue line.

Marine Epoxy: The repair and restoration standard. Bonds well to a wide variety of materials, and usable in almost all flexibility and temperature conditions. Needs no clamping pressure, only contact…fills gaps well. Likes wood below 12% EMC. Repairable with itself, joints can often be broken apart for repair with using heat. Clear glue line and can be dyed to match the wood. Controllable open time with different hardeners. Slightly permeable to water vapor and there are reports of failures in fully saturated wood and with White Oak. Very sensitive to UV, requiring protection.

3M 5200: A rubbery, polyurethane sealant in various colors with adhesive properties sometimes used as a glue. Fails as a glue under water saturation without high clamping pressure, and without the proper strength testing I couldn’t do here, it’s not recommended as a stand-alone marine glue. Repairable with epoxy.

Liquid Polyurethane: Gorilla Glue, Elmer’s Probond, Elmer’s Ultimate, and others. Versatile in temperature and bonding wet wood with moderate open time, these glues aren’t rated for below waterline use but initial use shows potential as a marine glue. Likes high clamping pressure and fits similar to resorcinol…it won’t fill gaps. Will successfully glue green wood at 30% EMC. Repairable with epoxy. Noticeable, yellow-brown glue lines.

PL Premium Construction Adhesive: This polyurethane goo shows promise as a marine glue with further testing and use. Works like 3M 5200 but cures and behaves like liquid poly. Appears to bond well to everything epoxy does, and more where epoxy and liquid poly won’t, perhaps because of a higher isocyanate content…it bonds to difficult surfaces only cyanoacrylate super glues will bond to. The only general-use glue I’ve found that will bond difficult aliphatic-contaminated surfaces. Appears flexible to temperature and moisture content with gap-filling ability, but as a construction adhesive, its open time is shorter than liquid poly. Appeared to like high clamping pressure, and unlike other glues, wouldn’t bond at all without at least some. Repairable with itself and epoxy. Glue line as in liquid poly.

Urea Formaldehyde Plastic Resin Glue: Weldwood, DAP and others. The old interior furniture standard, and in older marine applications that required well-blended glue lines. Still preferred by many, as it is a no-creep glue easily repaired using epoxy. Long open time, it needs tight fits and 65 degrees F or higher for an overnight cure…it doesn’t fill gaps. Best glue line among them all and moderate water resistance still make it useful for interior marine brightwork applications. A relatively brittle glue and UV sensitive, it requires protection….but its brittleness is an aid to repairability, as joints can be broken apart for repair. An inexpensive powder with a short, one-year shelf life.

The Titebond Family of Aliphatics: Convenient. No mixing, just squeeze. Short open times, fast tack, and short clamping times. Fast, and an acceptable long-grain layup glue…in heated, commercial shops, I’ve had rough-cut Titebond panel layups in and out of the clamps and thru the planer inside of an hour. Flexible in temperature and to a lesser extent in moisture content, but the bottled glue can freeze in unheated shops. A flexible glue, it has been reported to creep under load, sometimes several years after the joint was made. The latest “Titebond III” appears to be a stronger glue than its two predecessors. Difficult glues to repair, as they won’t stick to themselves and no other glues will except cyanoacrylates, which are too brittle for general use. Epoxy and fabric aren’t bonding to aliphatic glue lines in marine strip construction, compounding repair difficulties. While not definitive, the new PL Premium appears to bond well to Titebond III residue and is worth pursuing by those repairing old white and yellow aliphatic joints.