New (?) Glue for laminating benchtops

[Clinton1]

I purchased a 310 mL tube of Kleiberit Construction Adhesive 569.0 Supratac today ($18). It is a one-component system, from a German company.
I was wondering if anyone has used this product before, as I have not seen it. I have only found one person that has any experience in it, he glued two 300mm square beams together (end to end) to test the bond. He said he broke the beams before the glue bond broke.
I am intending to use it to glue a lamination of 40 mm square Messmate lengths together into a bench top - so any thoughts would be appreciated.
I rang the distributer and it seems I may have bought the wrong product, the 569.0 has a 'skin' form time of 5 mins (80% bond strength forms in 60 mins at 21 degrees celcius, as opposed to the 510 which is the same product, but 'skins' in 20 minutes (and cures to 80% strenght in 4-5 hours). Guess I'll have to be quick.
Any assistance/product reviews appreciated.
BTW - I have not done a laminated bench top before, and am doing the bench top to make a bench to make a wood working bench so I can do wood work on. ?? it seems to be a chicken and egg thing. ;)

[zenwood]

I am intending to use it to glue a lamination of 40 mm square Messmate lengths together into a bench top - so any thoughts would be appreciated. I intend using Aquadhere when I do my bench lamination. End grain strength should not be an issue, as long as any endgrain joints are surrounded by long grain (like a brick wall). The quick skin time would seem to preclude the german stuff.

[Clinton1]

so how do you achieve "endgrain joints are surrounded by long grain (like a brick wall)" and accomodate movement. I would have thought that the movement of the bench across the grain would pull severely on the long grain??

[Gumby]

BTW - I have not done a laminated bench top before, and am doing the bench top to make a bench to make a wood working bench so I can do wood work on.

Is that before or after you do the woodorking on the bench you are making for a woodworking bench ? If it is, I'd definitely do the bench first , unless the other bench was better suited. Maybe you could do it while the glue on that one was drying in which case you wouldn't have to glue it up until after the top was made for the bench. Then you'd have to work fast, but not if you didn't use glue in the first instance. Then you wouldn't have the problem. Simple really. :D :D

[arms]

aquadhere is really not suited for benchtops for any purpose,i would go with a single fix polyurethane glue ,(long skin time prefferably)for peace of mind,

[scooter]

zenwood, even if you don't want to fork out for polyurethane, at least use a yellow glue, better water resistance and you won't get the eventual creep in the joins.


Cheers...........Sean, bench pressure :p

[aabb]

A few days ago I did a hall table top with Triton yellow glue... its still together !

Albert

[antisense]

Howdy,

Everytime I see a post on laminating timber for benchtops, people talk about joining with opposing grains.. I'm not really sure what people mean. (BTW complete noob here) If I buy say 5 lengths of timer, it is unlikely that they will have come from the same stock, therefore they should all have very different grains when they are lined up.


Do you see what I mean? Can someone put <stoopid>/stoopid mode on and explain to me about grain orientation during laminating.

</stoopid> Cheers in advance

stoopid, err I mean antisense ^_^

[zenwood]

Isn't the new Aquadhere+ the same as 'yellow' glue?

See attached for brick wall explanation.

[zenwood]

Everytime I see a post on laminating timber for benchtops, people talk about joining with opposing grains..
It's to do with the pattern of growth rings on the end grain. There are pros and cons to doing it each way

Seee pics

[zenwood]

Incidentally, by 'benchtop' here, I am refering to a woodworking bench. Kitchen benchtops would have other considerations, like waterproofness...

[Clinton1]

Zenwood: quote "endgrain joints are surrounded by long grain"
Sorry - (engage my brain) now you make sense! I thought that what you meant was to laminate all the pieces together (all equal length) and then glue a piece across all the end grains. That thought got put in my mind and I've spent all day being distracted trying to figure it out. Hence my post about accomodating movement.
Incidentally if you know a way to put a length across end grain and accomodate movement i'd be glad to know.
Gumby: I'll tell you when I start the glue up, if I am not on the forum for a while after that please come looking. I'll be the guy out in Craigieburn sulking in his shed with a sash clamp glued to his hand and a table top stuck to his foot. Thats another question that's been bugging me, how to get the bench glued down flat (some of the strips are slightly bowed) when I don't have a flat surface to do it on. Watch out dining table :p Maybe I could buy a ute that folds out into a workbench, and make the bench on that?

[Bruce Micheal]

Isn't the new Aquadhere+ the same as 'yellow' glue?
I thought it was, except for the colour?
I use Aquadhere+ for joining Ironbark boards together for kitchen bench tops. As yet I haven't had any problems (I use biscuits as well). I have had dramas with the 'yellow glue' not bonding with some timbers (although this may be a problem of the practitioner, not the glue). I should add that I also inlay strips of timber (10mm x 10mm) at diagonals underneath the bench just in case!

[scooter]

AFAIK, there are 3 types of Selleys aquadhere glue.

The original, which is a standard PVA type glue.

The Tradesman's Choice, which is a cross linking type PVA, faster for clamps off and full cure, stronger and more creep resistant.

The latest type, model name escapes me, that was released within the last 12 months. This type is a polyurethane glue, is supposed to glue wood to almost anything, and is waterproof.

Happy to be corrected if anything here is incorrect.


Cheers.....Sean, BTW-is Contact Adhesive the moniker for Selleys Customer Hotline? :)

[zenwood]

Incidentally if you know a way to put a length across end grain and accomodate movement i'd be glad to know.
A traditional way to cover up endgrain on tabletops is to use what are called 'breadboard ends'. The idea is in the pic. There might be articles on the details elsewhere in the forum or on google.

[zenwood]

AFAIK, there are 3 types of Selleys aquadhere glue...
Yep, I believe that's the way it goes (AFAIK).

I did a test of the new Aquadhere polyurethane glue, by glueing together two ice-block sticks at their ends in a L-shape, letting the glue dry, then immersing the glue-up in water for about three days. The ice-block sticks got very soggy, but the bond showed no effect at all, and was still good (stronger than the wood!). I then proceeded to use it on a bathroom cabinet, which regularly gets very damp, and occasionally has standing pools of water inside of it (when the kids get too boistrous in the bath!) The cabinet has held together so far.

Only draw-back with the polyurethane is it foams up out of the joint, and needs cleaning up.

I think it's the same stuff as "Gorilla Glue" sold in the US.

[Clinton1]

Thanks Zenwood, I'd send you a greenie thing, but as a jube to the forum - I aint good enought to be trusted with that power yet :p
In reference to the breadboard thing, it will not be neat will it? I mean the laminated section will expand and be wider than the end piece is long; then shrink and be narrower... I am a bit of a neat freak, in some things anyway. I guess I need to be looking for a table of movement values for Aussie woods.
Aveagoodone
BTW before I try out the glue on the bench, I am thinking of making a laminated butchers block - anyone know if there are timbers that you just should not use??
What does AFAIK stand for - Alien Forensic An*l Investigation Korps??

[IanW]

In reference to the breadboard thing, it will not be neat will it? I mean the laminated section will expand and be wider than the end piece is long; then shrink and be narrower... I am a bit of a neat freak, in some things anyway. I guess I need to be looking for a table of movement values for Aussie woods.


Clinton1, you're never going to find a wood, local or otherwise that doesn't move a bit with the comings and goings of humidity, and the wider the piece, the more it moves. If you 'breadboard' a top, then you have to accept that sometimes the end is going to be too wide or too narrow by a mm or two. So if that is offensive to you, you need a design that will hide it.

The old-style European bench design does just that. It has end-caps which have important structural roles. One end carries the nut for the tail vice, and the other helps to retain the fixed arm of the shoulder vice. The caps are usually dovetailed to the back piece, and because I don't build shoulder vices (never had the space around a bench to accomodate one), I dovetail the front apron intop the left side cap too. This may seem a bit counter-intuitive, and a recipe for self-destruction, but movement of the top is catered for by the tool-tray design. Some people don't like having a tool tray on the bench top, because they fill up with junk, but it solves the problem of wood movement, if you build it correctly.

Modern steel vices can usually be mounted without the need for end caps, so if you're using these, no need to bother. Even if you want a tool-tray, these can be screwed to the back edge quite successfully, without having to be built-in....

Avagooday

[zenwood]

AFAIK: As Far As I Know. Ckeck out

http://www.acronymfinder.com/

Breadboard neatness: if the bench is a workbench, IanW has excellent advice. If it's a kitchen bench, you might be able to achieve neatness on the front edge by glueing the front tenon, and dowelling the middle and rear tenons, thus forcing the expansion, and resulting planar mismatch, to occur there invisibly. A friend of mine achieved kitchen bench neatness by adding a mitred frame to the font and sides. Not sure how he attached the perpendicular grains: I might ask him.

Thanks for the gray greenie! Let us know how it all works out.

[zenwood]

BTW (By the way) you need a new avatar: that one is disturbing! :(:rolleyes:

[IanW]

A friend of mine achieved kitchen bench neatness by adding a mitred frame to the font and sides. Not sure how he attached the perpendicular grains: I might ask him.


Zenwood - While a mitred frame might achieve neatness, you are going to need an expansion gap somewhere to allow for seasonal comings and goings of the contained wood, otherwise the mitres will almost certainly pop. The wider and thicker the top, the more power it will develop.

I not long ago repaired a tabletop that had been enclosed in a 45mm thick Kwila mitred frame. The mitres were not the most accurately cut ones I've ever encountred, but the maker had managed to force the tops together to the nearest 3mm or so, and made up the rest with several kilos of epoxy. He then drove a couple of 5/8th hardwood dowels through each corner, replete with more epoxy, in a vain attempt to constrain the 45mm thick hardwood it was surrounding. Of course, the wood won, popping two corners and breaking the dowels in the process.
I couldn't pursuade the owner that the design was fundamentally flawed, so repaired it to their demands, with an expansion gap in the panel, (and slightly bettter-fitting mitres!). They also wanted the panel changed to Silky Oak (G. robusta), which is much softer and more compressible, so maybe it will hold up a bit better this time, but I gave no guarantee!
Just a good reminder to me how much force expanding wood can develop.
Cheers,

[antisense]

Are there any good web based tutorials in exactly what kinds of design flaws can lead to problems and how to overcome them?

I'm a complete novice, and I'm concerned that some of my designs on a current project may create problems when the wood moves.

antisense. ^_^

[IanW]

Antisense - there must be, but if Google can't find you some, almost any basic w'working book starts off with a discussion of wood movement.
In essence, there is little mystery to it. Wood is a bunch of cells whose thick walls are made of hygroscopic material. As the cell walls take up and gives off water, according to prevailing humidity, they expand and contract. The cellular structure is such that nearly all the change occurs in the diameter of the constituent cells, and negligble change in length.
So when designing something made of wood, you just have to remember each piece of wood in it is going to get fatter and leaner as the seasons roll around, and find ways to allow for that without constraining the movement too much.
The emphasis is on 'too much', because some joints such as a rightangle mortice and tenon necessarily constrain wood movement. But if the width is short, it can't develop too much power, so the annual movement can be contained by the glue and the elasticity of the material constraining it.
But when you get very wide pieces like table tops the total movement is a lot, and the power they devlop is great. The thicker the top, the slower it moves (takes longer for water vapour to go in and out), but the more power it develops. So that's why wide tops are screwed to aprons with wood or metal buttons, or screwed through elongated slots. Wide panels are allowed to 'float' in a frame, etc.
I'd be willing to bet all of us have made design mistakes at some time or other - there are situations where you just have to bend the rules a bit. Sometimes you get away with it (for a while, at least) and sometimes not.
Softer, compressible woods are the most forgiving. I've repaired a few old cedar sideboards that were glued up with hide glue, with parts like the plinth glued cross-grain. For years the wood took it, but eventaully, due perhaps to some sudden change, the sides split, or cracked the glue, or both.
They used crappy construction methods a hundred plus years ago, too!
Cheers,

[Trent The Thief]

Scooter - That's the AQUADHERE DURABOND:

is a polyurethane woodworking adhesive that produces bonds stronger than most woods. It is waterproof and adheres wood to a variety of other surfaces (eg MDF, metal, glass, ceramic, concrete). It's also sandable, paintable and stainable for extra workability.

http://www.selleys.com.au/products/live/306/202.asp

I'm getting ready to do my own bench. I'm planning to use Gorilla Glue. AFAIK, Gorilla is comparable to Durabond. I was thinking about yellow glue, but I want to finish the bench sometime in this century :-) I think yellow glue is too slow to set to where I can unclamp and do more boards (I could use about a bazillion more pipe clamps).

I can unclamp joints glued with the gorilla glue in a few hours and start the next set. Squeeze out with the poly glues is a PITA to clean up when dry, though, so take care with it. Wear gloves, too!

[mike44]

The best glue for bench top laminations is resourcinal glue. Long open time, about 2 hours, exceptional strength, does not creep. Weldwood is one brand that I have used. Boatbuilders use resourcinal glues. Clean up the squeeze out as soon as you are done glue up. Cover the floor or table with plastic as this glue is tough to clean up.
I once did a spiral stair stringer lamination with this glue, did not protect the subfloor. I spent 6 hours cleaning the globs off the plywood.
I have built many benches, almost all of them were glued up with pva. Works fine, but you do have to work a bit hurried. Since I switched to resourcinal glue I have time sip a cup of coffee while I work.

mike

[Clinton1]

Zenwood - So you are disturbed by my avatar, its from the Gorillaz band website. It represents me when I see a flash new tool and I don't see the 4 in front of the 40.00 ($40 :) ) on the price tag ($440 :() ... or when I see 'doug the slugs' avatar.
I'll try to get a calmer one for you.

[zenwood]

Zenwood - So you are disturbed by my avatar[...] doug's is definitely one of the better animated avatars (generally I find the animated avatars distracting--in a bad way). If the av represents you, I'd hate to be that tool, or doug's av:eek:;)

What was the tool, BTW?

[Pat]

What does AFAIK stand for - Alien Forensic An*l Investigation Korps??

On of the better explanations . . . :D

[IanW]

What was the tool, BTW?

Now 'es gettin' personal!
Had to get in before Ozwinner! :D

[Clinton1]

The tool was my reflection AND a shiny, bright steel, english made, (maker/manufactures name eludes me) rebate/fillister plane with ..... looked it up on the web: Clifton 3-option rebate plane no. 3110 (Found the link on google - first to list was - http://www.fine-tools.com/esims.htm ) why is my keyboard wet??? oh, thats my drool :D

[zenwood]

The tool was my reflection AND a shiny, bright steel, english made, (maker/manufactures name eludes me) rebate/fillister plane with ..... looked it up on the web: Clifton 3-option rebate plane no. 3110 (Found the link on google - first to list was - http://www.fine-tools.com/esims.htm ) why is my keyboard wet??? oh, thats my drool :D Very nice. Wasn't $440 though---? While we're into tool , here's mine:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/073.jpg
...then there's always doug the slugs avatar. I think I'm addicted:eek:

[Clinton1]

Yes - $440, why is that good, bad, ??

[Clinton1]

Now I'm thinking.... - this looks right and it was $440

http://www.fine-tools.com/esims.htm
I too see the UK Pound price off this website, and the aussie price is way less????

[j3ff3rson3]

Scooter - That's the AQUADHERE DURABOND:

is a polyurethane woodworking adhesive that produces bonds stronger than most woods. It is waterproof and adheres wood to a variety of other surfaces (eg MDF, metal, glass, ceramic, concrete). It's also sandable, paintable and stainable for extra workability.

http://www.selleys.com.au/products/live/306/202.asp

I'm getting ready to do my own bench. I'm planning to use Gorilla Glue. AFAIK, Gorilla is comparable to Durabond. I was thinking about yellow glue, but I want to finish the bench sometime in this century :-) I think yellow glue is too slow to set to where I can unclamp and do more boards (I could use about a bazillion more pipe clamps).



hi everybody

does anyone know how i can get the dried aquadhere off my new bamboo floor? the layers did a very poor job and glued the boards with this product, but they left plenty of glue marks on the floor, really annoying! can it be cleaned somehow other than sanded? i'd hate to see the bamboo sanded, it is a very good looking solid strand oven bamboo...

thanks for any advice
Jeff

[jow104]

Jeff welcome to the forum, I have sent you a private message which you can select using private message at the top of this forum screen.

[j3ff3rson3]

Thanks Woody, that's exactly what I just did! I hope there is another solution... I've spoken to the bloody layers and they said: no problem, we can clean it, no worries mate!

i'll kepp my fingers crossed for a good solution...