Relative economy of different brands of gouges

[QuarkVI]

Hi,


I would like to get a better understanding of the relative economy i.e. cost per inch of wood cut in an acceptable manner of various brands of bowl and spindle gouges as I am considering buying some “decent” ones. Understand that subjective preference is also important but just wanting to understand some of the things that make certain gouges more expensive besides that is what they can get for them :U


I did buy a cheap Chinese bowl gouge and spindle gouge a while ago to use while I learnt to sharpen etc.
I have now saved my pennies and am ready to buy a bigger (~1/2”) bowl gouge and a better spindle gouge. Seems the best options for me are either woodcut or vicmarc /thompson gouges based on price and availability – other brands are either pricier due to shipping or because I can’t get them without handles.


Firstly am I correct in assuming that the vicmarc/woodcut/Thompson tools offer better economy than the Chinese bog standard HSS because of the better steel i.e. longer time between sharpening and less removed when sharpening? In addition the quality of the actual flute contributes to the overall economy i.e. a better tool works better?


Secondly I am battling to understand the value proposition of the Woodcut gouges. Even if one considers that you can buy a replacement tip instead of the whole tool it appears that per inch of gouge it works out, at best, equivalent to the vicmarc gouge price. Does the argument of better steel apply here? Or am I paying for the convenience of a removable tip and the advantage of having a solid shaft behind said tip?


Thirdly from what I have read that the real advantage of these steels is unlocked when one sharpens with a CBN wheel as you can use a higher grit and hence make them sharper – would you say a 180 grit CBN contributes to the economy of these gouges by resulting in less sharpening and less metal being removed? (I understand that there is the inherent cost of the CBN wheel as well but I am justifying that with the convenience of it over a regular wheel hence can ignore that for this argument)


OR is all of this bogus and it is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other?

Thanks
Robin

[Pat]

Rob, it is down to personal choice after using the various brands. Flute shapes, Timber & you style of turning also influence the decision.

If I was starting again, I would join a club and ask the members, what works for them and ask to try out the chisels under supervision.

I have P&N, Thompson U, Hamlet, Crown, Woodcut gouges for Bowl/Spindle/Detail/SRG versions. I have used Vicmarc gouges - tried at a mates.

Personally for me the Thompson 5/8 U flute suits my style and lasts is softer woods as more than others, but I can get maybe a minute or two from all brands in some of the burl timbers over here.

Yes I sharpen 5 bowl gouges of similar size and get 10 minutes max from the 5 gouges.

On the Sharpening front, I have CBN's on the High Speed grinder and the Tormek. Unless I have to reshape a chisel after a catastrophic incident or being new, the chisels are honed on the 180# Tormek.

[artful bodger]

Hi Robin.
" Cost per inch of wood cut" seems like a strange way to work out the miles per gallon a gouge will give you.
If you are serious about your turning future I'd advise getting good quality (not Chinese) tools.
P&N and Robert Sorby are good brands. I like the P&Ns but the guy who works in the shop where I buy them prefers the Sorby's. I like my Sorby scrapers but don't have any of their gouges. Also like my scrapers that are made from old files. There are no doubt other good brand available as well.
Spindle and roughing gouges I will usually hone as well as grind, while bowl gouges I only grind and don't hone. I'm sure everyone has their preferences.
Either way if you get a good quality tool to start with it takes a long time to wear it out. If you don't turn full time chances are that you will reach your use by date way before your chisel does. The good quality ones tend to require less sharpening as they hold their edges way better.

[hughie]

Like Pat I have a variety of makes and types of gouges. Much of it depends on what you turn. If your turning old man Totara fence posts well there probably not much that will stand up to it.

I turn some very hard timber with silica for added comfort... :U so not much lasts. I use my 1/2 Thompson for a lot of general roughing and or a 3/8 Henry Taylor . Finishing P&N 3/8 U or Vee gouges, and a few Hamlet 2060's tools.
I also have a high carbon steel 5/16 gouge for the soft wood tear out. Why HC ? Well I can get a much finer edge on HC than HSS and so deal with the real troublesome timber. Does the edge last? Nope but it does the trick on soft tear out

One thing for sure is that quality tools from well known makers will out last the Chinese variety, with that its really a matter of deciding which maker to go for and as its been said ' a personal' choice.

I have probably more Thompson tools than any other maker. This is due to bulk buying prices along with little or no shipping costs, so for cost is a factor. They are fine tools and the maker is a member of this forum and he has done some very generous deals with the members on their bulk deals. If your keen on getting some quality tools at good prices I would suggest you get on the next bulk deal.

[Mobyturns]

Respectfully as hobbyists I would suggest that learning how to sharpen rather than continually grinding tools will give you a far better value proposition for any brand of tool. There is quite a difference between "grinding" & "sharpening." One of the best things you can do is invest in any brand of grinding/sharpening jig system as it will enable you to consistently & faithfully replicate "grinds" without wasting tool steel. There are many choices out there. I prefer the Heligrind & Tormek jig systems myself, but only in the last few days set up a Truegrind system correctly for a wood turner in NZ. The Truegrind produced the goods too.

Most turners develop the turning skills but are hampered by poor or inconsistent tool profiles, so put in the effort to learn how to sharpen.

As for the best value tool steel - any reputable brand will offer consistent quality & a guarantee. "No-names" are pot luck in my experience. I use a range of Hamlets (HSS & 2030, 2060), P&N, Thompsons, and have played with others. The flute profile, grind shape and timber choices all determine how effective the tool is and how much you must sharpen & use up tool steel, so it is difficult to offer any informed opinion on relative wear rates.

[QuarkVI]

Thanks for the input,

I should maybe of gone with a question around my real problem: should I go with vicmarc/thompson OR woodcut? If we ignore preferences around flute shape - as I don't have these ... yet ... but was trying to avoid a preference based comment by making the question more generic.

Woodcut is widely available in NZ and that is what I learned on at my previous woodturning club (recently relocated to another town) but I am battling to see how, for the same price, that little bit of gouge is comparable to the vicmarc/thompson and no one at my club had any experience with both brands.

As for the sharpening - appreciate the advice. It is the reason why I bought the cheaper gouges first to ensure I could actually use a jig properly - have made my own copy of the wolverine/tru grind type system and am now able to reliably sharpen using it. Hence why I am also looking at putting a 180grit CBN wheel on my grinder as I have the touch/feel of the sharpening side sorted. My bedans and skews are all sharpened on waterstones (sigma power) and not the grinder - so also looking at getting a few diamond credit card hones to do the touching up on the gouges.

[Paul39]

QuarkVI,

There are extensive and passionate discussions about tools and sharpening in Woodturning - General. Do a search.

Major brand high speed steel is pretty much the same. I have bowl gouges by Crown, Thompson, no name Sheffield steel, and Chinese Penn State Industries. Some have benefited by honing the inside of the V with a rolled up 220 grit sandpaper.

They all cut about the same.

In your case, buy whatever strikes you and make turnings. One can argue what steel or brand is 3% better than another for hours, or make a bowl.

I have Sears & Roebuck, Craftsman, Henry Taylor, and a set of junk Chinese - 8 tools for $20 scrapers and skews. As an experiment swapping back and forth between the freshly sharpened probably carbon steel Chinese, and the freshly sharpened Henry Taylor skews, there is no difference in cutting quality. The HT stays sharp longer, has a thicker, longer handle, and is nicer to look at.

My favorite scraper is made from a 2 1/2 inch wide 3/8 inch thick, 12 inch long, high speed steel planer blade. I bought a set of four for $15 at a auction.

My second favorite is a Chinese Penn State Industries scraper I bought used for $17.50

See: http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LX130.html

I use a 1725 RPM dry grinder with 8 inch 120 grit wheels, and the Wolverine sharpening system. Flat rest on one side for scrapers and skews, the other side for bowl gouges.

I use the tools right off the grinder for roughing, and hone with a piece of used 220 or 320 grit sandpaper for the finishing cuts.

The grinder is 12 inches from the end of the lathe and is running all the time I am turning. When the cutting slows down, zip, zip, on the grinder and back to cutting.

[Jim Carroll]

If you stick to the higher name brands of tools you will get far superior quality of HSS,

Most of the asian varieties have HSS branded on them and that is as far as they go, cheap for a reason.

You have a good sharpening system so that helps eliminate the wastage.

The woodcut tips are triple tempered so hold an edge longer than some you also have a solid bar to eliminate tool deflection.

[Mobyturns]

Thanks for the input,

Woodcut is widely available in NZ and that is what I learned on at my previous woodturning club (recently relocated to another town) but I am battling to see how, for the same price, that little bit of gouge is comparable to the vicmarc/thompson and no one at my club had any experience with both brands.



I use the Woodcut replaceable tip bowl gouges purely because they lessen the harmonics/vibration when I turn my small linear laminated bowls. I can use a smaller dia bowl gouge with the Woodcut gouges to the same effect as a larger diameter traditional full length flute tool. In my application I can't see myself wearing the Woodcut tips away any time soon. I also use the Thompson U & V shape flutes, and the Hamlet bowl gouges. All have a place for certain applications. As I do not do a lot of big bowls I can't really comment on relative wear rates.

[Evanism]

Have the carbide tools taken off at all?

I've seen the circle ones and the ones that use a standard 14mm slightly curved carbide replaceable bit.

Since longevity of tool is directly proportional to sharpening (and how much is taken off/frequency) it makes sense to study that too.

The hint of using a slow speed tormek with CBN is interesting. Delbs has one and it did a very nice job (he is latheless at the moment! :D ). I was thinking of making a fake one to rest near the lathe. The high speed grinder with the 180 CBN wheel is too agro for me still.

[ian thorn]

I use woodcut for most of my turning rough out with a 16mm and finish with ether 10 or 12mm once you get a wood cut handle you can make your own shafts a fit the tips I hone regularly while turning and the edge lasts and is really sharp.

[robo hippy]

I have mostly Thompson tools. I have some D Way as well, which are the M4HSS. There are other 'stays sharp 5 times longer ones'. As near as I can tell, the stays sharp 5 times longer means you can hog off a lot more wood before they need to be sharpened, but for the finish cut I still prefer a fresh edge.

As for sharpening our tools away, most of us way over sharpen. In theory, you need one pass across the bevel, and it is sharp, and you just kiss the bevel. I am not positive that the CBN wheels give a superior edge, but they are a far better wheel.

robo hippy

[Paul39]

I have mostly Thompson tools. I have some D Way as well, which are the M4HSS. There are other 'stays sharp 5 times longer ones'. As near as I can tell, the stays sharp 5 times longer means you can hog off a lot more wood before they need to be sharpened, but for the finish cut I still prefer a fresh edge. robo hippy

Absolutely agree, same with using carbide tipped tools. Long hogging off life, but go to a freshly sharpened and honed HSS or carbon steel tool for the last finishing cuts.

[chuck1]

From a turning prospective the woodcut won't get shorter like traditional tools which is a plus!

[NeilS]

Very few of us are ever going to wear out a gouge unless we unnecessarily grind too much of the steel away every time we refresh the edge
One of the many good reasons to use a sharpening jig is that you only take off that amount of steel required to refresh the entire edge and only where it is required
A 'run-in' diamond or CBN wheel will remove the minimal amount of steel to refresh the edge
I have both, but opt for the diamond wheel as it removes a minimal amount of steel and to a near-mirror finish
Quality HSS gouges require less frequent sharpening and save time and money in the long run
I have and use (one after the other) most of the above mentioned quality makes of gouges, plus a few more, and there is minimal difference between them. You will not make a mistake of any consequence if you go with any of those quality gouges
You may have a preference for one make or style over another, but you can only find that out by using them. That is what clubs and turning get-togethers are for...:wink:
I turned a dirty root ball full of stones yesterday and there is no way I was going to risk any of my gouges on that; some job dirty jobs are best left to TC tips.


I'm now starting to wonder who is going to eventually inherit all of my gouges, which will collectively have several lifetimes of use left in them...:rolleyes: Maybe?


328935


Anyway, here are some words on gouge economy that comes from Doug Thompson:


The cost to learn with a good tool.

One good tool is worth more than a bunch of cheaper tools. Most professionals only use a couple of tools all the time, tools that they have learned to use well. When starting out ONE 1/2 inch bowl gouge is enough to turn a 12 inch bowl, then you add another when you see a need.

The cost to learn on a good tool is low when you break it down.

-The cost of a 1/2 bowl gouge is $50

-Useable flute length say 4 inches. Cost $12.50 per inch

-It can be ground say 50 times per inch. Cost $.25 per grind.

-Make a huge mistake and lose a 1/4 inch. Cost $3.12

This is a small price to pay... NOW to compare it with something else we use all the time... sandpaper ONE 2 inch disk is $.20


Note: Doug's standard 1/2" bowl gouge, without a handle, is now US$60 + cost of getting it here, etc., but you still get the general picture.

[robo hippy]

The #2 comment about jig sharpening taking off less metal than free hand sharpening just doesn't make sense to me. I have been free hand sharpening with a platform for some years now, maybe 8, and just don't find that to be true. Done correctly, one pass does it. Same with jig sharpening. For sure we all tend to over sharpen, going back and forth a couple of times, 'just to make sure'. Now, some free hand sharpeners like Mike Mahoney and Jimmy Clewes prefer a 60 or less grit wheel for sharpening because they feel a more serrated edge cuts better. I don't know about that one. I do switch back and forth on my wheels with my gouges, and can't tell any difference, so end up most of the time on the finer side (180). Now there is a 400 grit CBN wheel available, but I don't have one of those yet. I have used a wet wheel a few times (Tormek), and again couldn't tell any difference from a CBN wheel on edge durability, or more clean cuts. There are those who claim that a more polished edge lasts longer because there are fewer teeth to wear down. The biggest difference I have ever noticed in edge durability has more to do with the wood I am cutting rather than the wheel I am sharpening with.

robo hippy

[Evanism]

The comparison of per-chisel sharpening to sandpaper is a very good one.

Considering my chisel work accounts for 95% of my work, it would seem, based on NeilS' conjecture, that 95% of the real cost is in fact elsewhere!

This is so true.

One may wince at a very fancy $120 chisel, but it will last a very long time.

I might add though, that I was recommended the colour coded cloth backed sandpaper a few months ago....my Great Many Gods! It is fantastic! It's goes and goes and goes. No nasty little ridges and it gets into all the little corners and curves.

Didn't know about the 400 CBNs....might have to get one. I still feel the 180 it too fast.

Regarding smooth vs serrated finish....maybe it's like a very fine bread knife or a flint knapper stone :) the great many regular ridges may assist with some parts of the roughing stage! TO SCIENCE!!!!

[NeilS]

Lots of good insights there RH.

I know that many professional woodturners like yourself free hand sharpen their gouges. The current range of jigs have only been around for a couple of decades, including the better adjustable platforms designs like your own, so anyone who woodturned before that had to free hand sharpen. If you learned to do so and did it enough to get highly proficient at it you may feel no need for jigs and the associated fiddle. And, even if some do remove a bit more steel free hand sharpening, for a professional turner time is more valuable than steel.

I free hand sharpen myself for many decades until the first jigs became readily available here in Australia, about twenty years ago. I tried one, preferred it for a number of reasons, and have progressed through several models since. I find I remove less steel to get a fresh sharp edge using a jig, although that is not the main reason I use it. A consistent Irish grind profile is my primary reason for doing so. I find with free hand sharpening my profiles gradually drift away from the optimum for me.

My observation is that novice and occasional turners make a dog's breakfast of free hand sharpening, chewing up a lot of steel unnecessarily, taking longer to do so and producing a variable edge profile that is not conducive to good turning. With instruction and practice they would get better at it, but there are very few teachers now that have the proficiency themselves to pass on those skills.

I respect your perspective, RH, and having considered it I think I will stick to my #2 point, ie the majority of forum readers will lose less gouge steel unnecessarily by using a jig. That is not to say that some turners can't match that free hand, but only after the considerable practice that a professional turner typically puts into developing that skill.

[QuarkVI]

Just a "thank you" for everyone's input - it seems either choice will be good :U

but seeing as I am purchasing something else, and to save on shipping, I will be getting a Vicmarc ½" bowl gouge which is the same steel as the Thompson tools. Come Christmas I will be getting a couple of the thompson detail gouges and in the mean time will get a Woodcut spindle gouge (which I can later put a bowl gouge tip on if I prefer the Thompsons).

Appreciate the comments re freehand sharpening and enjoyed Reed's youtube vid on freehand sharpening - definitely a skill to learn. Have been trying it on the cheap chisels and not doing too well - partly lack of skills and partly that I didn't start off with a "correctly" shaped gouge so I was trying to shape the tip and sharpen it. Will be getting a jig though as don't think my son will have quite the patience I have to learn the skill now and will be a bit a of a security blanket for me.

thanks
Robin