Carbide Tools - Who Uses Them

[brendan stemp]

Who uses tungstan carbide tipped tools and why? Are they a gimmick or do they have a genuine place in the turners workshop? I am interested to hear why you might use them. I use them, but have a very specific reason for doing so; ie gumnuts are very abrasive. On most turning projects I would always prefer HSS. So what is your specific use for them?

[Mobyturns]

Who uses tungstan carbide tipped tools and why? Are they a gimmick or do they have a genuine place in the turners workshop? I am interested to hear why you might use them. I use them, but have a very specific reason for doing so; ie gumnuts are very abrasive. On most turning projects I would always prefer HSS. So what is your specific use for them?

Brendan, I have a carbide cutter in my Vermec sphere turning jig & that is about it atm. It works very well in that application.

I have read many reviews & have looked at several versions of the hand tools, have tried a couple, and have met quite a few turners who swear by them - though most have had an interest in selling them. Being very open minded on turning processes I believe they do have a place, esp in end grain hollowing and in quite abrasive applications like your gum nuts in epoxy pieces. They also have their failings, carbide being quite brittle means that tool design is limited by the materials properties and can be easily damaged / chipped. Generally the cutters can't be easily sharpened & are disposed of, or rotated to a new index position, once the edge looses its effectiveness. Any chip damage from inclusions in the wood effectively destroys that section of the cutter.

There appears to quite a range in cutter design, some like the Hunter & Vermec cutters have quite a "sharp" formed edge and others like the Easy Wood tools are a flat cutter. Maybe the flat styles are more practical and perhaps can be sharpened. Will be interesting to see the relative performance of each. I find the price off the carbide inserts quite high in wood turning applications compared to metal machining inserts but that is probably due to the market size.

[dai sensei]

I was one of the first in Aus to get the Easy Wood Ci1 rougher when they first came out and demonstrated for them for quite a while before they were copied. I subsequently attained the Ci0, Ci2, Ci3 (ie all the square and round carbide bits). I still use them often for those extremely hard and dirty/cast/burnt etc timbers. I also use carbide bits for hollowing and ball cutting in my Vermec systems.

I certainly don't believe they are a gimmick and have their place in our tool collection. You can get by without them, but like a lot of things, if you have the right tool and use them the right way it does make it easier. Biggest problem is people using them for other things they were never intended for or use them the wrong way and wonder why their results are disappointing. There is no doubt carbide tools hold their edge for a lot longer.

[Christos]

I have a set of carbide tools for turning. I am not super happy with using them as I think they cut slower. It most likely is my technique that is at fault as I think I am on the low end of the learning curve.

[VikingCode]

We have a few, and I like them for roughing/hollowing, but still turn to HSS for even just approaching final cuts/shapes. Wife much prefers carbide as she finds them less taxing to use.

I'd say not a gimmick, but overpriced. Recently made my own ("full sized") for <$50AUD each (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S33744vgV0o) (and thats despite me not knowing what I'm doing). Still have to work on a couple of 'mid sized' handles.

[Paul39]

I bought a used EZ Finisher CiO in a weak moment. I find it is good for roughing out the inside of bowls, especially dry locust which has silica in it and is quite abrasive. It is a scraper and gives a scraper finish.

As nice as tool as it is, I would not buy another EZ as there are lesser priced copies that do the same thing.

Some folks here have built there own from scratch.

I like the way I can run from center to rim and back again, ripping out timber without regard to finish.

I do my finishing with HSS or carbon tools fresh off the grinder and honed.

I did buy a spare bit which I have not used as I can sharpen the one on the finisher with a few strokes of a flat diamond paddle, or keep rotating it until it is not cutting freely. I then take it off and put it cutting side down on a wet diamond hone and rub it around in circles with finger pressure.

One can find generic replacement bits by doing a search. I did at one time chase down a source after a long search but did not even make a note as I have been sharpening and using the original one for about 3 years.

Here is where I found replacement carbide bits: http://www.carbideanddiamondtooling.com/

[jabell]

Here is where I found replacement carbide bits: http://www.carbideanddiamondtooling.com/

For the adventurous, well sort of, carbide inserts are available on AliExpress.com for A$37 for 10, delivered. I have bought quite a few things from AliExpress over the years, but I know that it is not everyone's cup of tea.
Here some examples:-

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/RPMT10T3MO-M01-AH120-tungaloy-carbide-tip-Lathe-Insert-Mitsubishi-kyocera-zccct-korloy-sumitomo-Free-shipping-is/1905673872.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/CCMT060204-NX2525-MITSUBISHI-carbide-tip-Lathe-Insert-the-lather-boring-bar-cnc-machine-Free-shipping-is/1842799958.html

For those not familiar, Alibaba and Aliexpress is a $45 billion company in China that is a portal for Chinese industry. Alibaba is the commercial arm, where you can only buy in largish quantities such as retailer might want. Its where eBayers buy their stock for re-selling! Aliexpress will generally sell you single items, and the price is higher per item. The system is that you pay Aliexpress with Visa etc(not Paypal), and Aliexpress withholds paying the supplier until either after you notify them that you have received it, or 45 days have lapsed. If you haven't received it in 45 days, you can put a hold on the payment until you do get it, or eventually it gets replaced.

All that said, and watching Paul Jenkin's video, I'll probably have a go at making some tool handles and fit some of these tips, which at $3.70 each with two edges, would be worth the experiment.

[VikingCode]

All that said, and watching Paul Jenkin's video, I'll probably have a go at making some tool handles and fit some of these tips, which at $3.70 each with two edges, would be worth the experiment.

doitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoit using tools that you've made yourself is very satisfying.

There is also http://azcarbide.com/ for cutters - pricier than AliExpress, but all the shapes and radii and include the screw if you're lazy like me and didn't want to have to source that elsewhere ;)

If you go for a round cutter, while I didn't show the how to in that video, the best way I found (for the tooling I have) was to use a square file to do the first half of it, then carve out the radius with a dremel w/ grinder attachment. I haven't entirely figured out the best approach for the diamond shape - I'm thinking drilling lots of holes as if it was a mortise, then using a dremel to clean up the waste. If anybody has a better idea, I'd love to hear it.

[Old Croc]

Hi Brendan,
For me personally I prefer to use old style wood turning tools, but I have a stash of Burdekin Plum and Queensland Walnut, which I think is THE most abrasive timber in the world and it destroys Henry Taylor HSS in one pass of a 450 mm bowl. Cliff Rogers gave me a loan of a Easy tools rougher and it was quite successful in butchering out the blank so I made a similar style of tool with some TC inserts from the Shellix supplier and it has proven effective in making bowls, but I still do the finish cuts with an original Gerry Glasser Hitec gouge.
I don't think they are a replacement for HSS and good technique in most applications, but each to their own.
Rgds,
Crocy.

[jabell]

the best way I found (for the tooling I have) was to use a square file to do the first half of it, then carve out the radius with a dremel w/ grinder attachment. I haven't entirely figured out the best approach for the diamond shape - I'm thinking drilling lots of holes as if it was a mortise, then using a dremel to clean up the waste. If anybody has a better idea, I'd love to hear it.

A few years ago I bought off a supermarket notice board a 1m long metal lathe for $100 someone just wanted out of his shed, and it includes a milling head, so I can dispense with the filing! :) Whilst I couldn't machine up a new crankshaft for the car, cutting a nice flat bit on a steel bar is well within my capabilities, which is why I'm suddenly attracted to this idea of making some carbide tipped tools for 5/10ths of bugger all. Good also for those copper shank thingos too.

[oreos40]

I do production turnings. I have used carbide for almost thirty five years. I use them as a cutter not a scraper and the grind is for cutting aluminum and not the same as most of those sole for wood. they cut fast and last. I have done many turnings from limbs and wood with bark on them and they can take the sand and dirt better than HSS. and they hold up to the harder types of wood better than HSS as well.

[dai sensei]

Just a quick note, not all carbide cutters are the same, metal lathe cutters and timber lathe cutters are generally different. The angles of the edge are different and so is the approach (ie on the tool itself). These angles effect the finish off the tool.

[Luke Maddux]

I have one I use for hollowing and that's about it. That being said, it excels at that application.

In my experience they're very good at avoiding or eliminating tearout. Always appreciated.

[fubar]

Brendan after watching one of your videos I went out and bought some carbide tipped forstner bits for drilling out salt and pepper mills. They have made a huge difference, so much quicker.

[flyinlee]

I have two from EZ and find them expensive to use if you don't sharpen. I ese my round for tight radius coming out of a bowl. with a very light cut I can get a very good finish in Cherry with no tear. Otherwise I don't use them anymore after buying a couple of cutters.
Lee

[chuck1]

I am yet to buy any, at first I thought they were a gimmick, but may have a Place for deep hollowing and hard to get to places e.g hollow forms. When I do Buy one it will be a solid bent one
I don't think I would buy any aimed at spindle turning
I'm a bit of a traditionalist with turning.

[oreos40]

Just a quick note, not all carbide cutters are the same, metal lathe cutters and timber lathe cutters are generally different. The angles of the edge are different and so is the approach (ie on the tool itself). These angles effect the finish off the tool.

Most cutters for iron, steel and others have a hone or flat on the edge that helps to keep it from chipping. Inserts ground for aluminum have a dead sharp edge, relief, and a chip breaker. Definitely not made for scraping they can and will grab and self feed if you are not careful or not familiar with them!

[oreos40]

Here is a vid of a test run on dry ash for an epee guard. the back has a round edge and these blanks were thick so there was extra time spent cutting away extra material. in a run these were done in two passes. I make wooden bird nests for Easter gifts out of wet material and then they dry out of round. On wet material the strings are continuous from the start of the cut to the end like one continuous noodle. I use the same set up for the outside and then for the inside I use an inside arc cutter on the tailstock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GwTwU9FNb4M

[Old Croc]

Hey Oreos, that lever operated cross slide is nifty. I do a lot of metal machining and from the experimental tools I made I found the cutters for wood actually lasted longer (and were resharpenable) than the ones for aluminum. Good Aussie timber is so much harder and more abrasive than the wood you are used to.
Rgds,
Crocy.

[oreos40]

Hey Oreos, that lever operated cross slide is nifty. I do a lot of metal machining and from the experimental tools I made I found the cutters for wood actually lasted longer (and were resharpenable) than the ones for aluminum. Good Aussie timber is so much harder and more abrasive than the wood you are used to.
Rgds,
Crocy.

I have used them on everything including rosewood, blackwood, bubinga, buckthorn and ebony with no trouble. Several years ago a friend came over to show me "the coolest thing" it was his carbide cutter from some outfit. I showed him what I used and we did a side by side comparison. mine on the machine gave a better finish but his was easier to control when used by hand. with the small diameter and high relief it is hard to find the bevel unless making a very fine cut.

[derekcohen]

I first had a chance to use and compare a carbide bladed Easy Wood chisel against a HSS chisel when turning 4 legs for a chair in Fiddleback Jarrah ..

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The HSS completed 1% of the turning that the carbide managed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[NeilS]

Yes, for dirty woods and sometimes for hogging out some blanks.

If the blank is dirty I will turn down with carbide until clean. I have shaped my carbide holding bar to provide a continuation of the carbide bevel so that I can cut with the bevel rubbing on the outside of the blank.


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If the wood is worth the effort I core larger blanks, but if the blank is large and not worth coring I hog out with a carbide tip in scraper mode. I find it is faster, but I do dislike the splintery chip shower!

Occasionally I resort to carbide on very abrasive or extra hard woods, like our desert oaks.

But, I always swap back to HSS as soon as I can and always for finishing cuts.

I like the consistent quality of the tips from AZ Carbide, which are selected specifically for wood cutting.

[mat_au]

ive used them but prefer the hss tools but also for all you that use carbide here a video to watch and yes it does work well :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBgbhG373LE

[Hornet 6]

I have only just started woodturning, I have held off for years due to not having anywhere to do it.
Finally decided that I was going to take the plunge anyway, so a Jet 1015vs was acquired which I use in
the kitchen. That left the problem of how to sharpen any tools I buy, I came rapidly to the conclusion that
carbide cutters were the best way forward for me. After 25 years in a machine shop on a mill I am very familiar
with inserts so had no fears that they fail to cut.
So far it's working out ok, expensive initial outlay but cheap to run as I can source inserts locally either individually
or by the box of ten, time will tell which works out best for me.

Neil. :)