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WaggaSteve
3rd April 2015, 08:10 PM
I know (and understand) that because of the sharp corners , this tool is designed for between centres and should not be used on bowls. However, can I use it to flatten stuff that will later be turned into bowls or is all faceplate work banned ??
Steve

Fuzzie
3rd April 2015, 08:18 PM
Spindle Roughing Gouge
^^^^^

Luke Maddux
3rd April 2015, 08:29 PM
Hi Steve,

I am curious to hear what people say in response to this. I would think it is unlikely to matter with regards to safety unless the blank is incredibly gnarled around the outside and there is high potential for a catch. For a typical blank which has been pre-roughed on a band saw I would think that this would be a safe practice. The only fallback I might see is that the rounded, fingernail profile of a bowl gouge actually lowers the effective cutting angle (assuming your bowl and roughing gouge have the same bevel angle) which assists in sheering those two endgrain zones on either hemisphere of a faceplate blank.

Now... That said... While I have thought about this before, I eventually dismissed the thought based on the idea that there was no real reason to try it. A large bowl gouge works fine for this. I understand that a large (30-40mm) spindle roughing gouge could make a wider cut, but are you really turning bowl blanks that are so thick that this really solves anything?

Not to shoot down your question... I am just genuinely curious what the advantage might be to using a roughing gouge over a bowl gouge for this application.

Cheers,
Luke

Luke Maddux
3rd April 2015, 08:35 PM
Further to that, I know a lot of people tend to think of the roughing gouge as a tool which doesn't need to be quite as sharp as, say, a bowl gouge. I'm guilty...

But with this proposed application I would only do it with a freshly ground/honed roughing gouge. Otherwise I think you are greatly increasing your chances for nastier cuts through the end grain zones. But you can always hit them with the scraper I guess.

Cheers,
Luke

powderpost
3rd April 2015, 08:50 PM
Luke, you can do two things...
1. Before you use the roughing gouge on any face plate work, notify the ambulance and the emergency dept. at the hospital of an impending disaster.

2. Be sensible and use only a bowl gouge, or even a spindle gouge, for any face plate work, including bowls.

In other words do NOT use a roughing gouge on face plate work.. please?

Jim

dai sensei
3rd April 2015, 09:05 PM
Spindle roughing gouge for bowls :no::doh::o

See here for why not http://www.woodworkforums.com/vbtube_show.php?tubeid=68&sti=Why-you-dont-use-a-Spindle-Roughing-Gouge-on-bowls

Mobyturns
3rd April 2015, 09:53 PM
Spindle roughing gouge for bowls :no::doh::o

See here for why not http://www.woodworkforums.com/vbtube_show.php?tubeid=68&sti=Why-you-dont-use-a-Spindle-Roughing-Gouge-on-bowls

You beat me to it! :2tsup:

There has been a deliberate campaign to rename them spindle roughing gouges (SRG's) in the modern era of wood turning.

Milled bowl gouges are a much preferred choice for face grain orientation work over forged tools. However that was not always the case as the fluted bowl gouge milled from solid round bar stock is a relatively modern invention from the late 1960's. All bowls prior to that time were turned using forged hook tools or forged fluted gouges.

The reason SRG's should not be used for roughing squarish face grain orientation flanks to round is the hazards created from inappropriate tool presentation, stresses imposed on the tang from such inappropriate use, and the risk of injury through breaking the tang, or shearing off large sections of the blank etc.

As Powderpost says above - please do not use SRG's on face grain orientation blanks - unless you love living on the edge and like visiting emergency departments.

A couple of handy resources for you
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.woodturner.org/resource/resmgr/fundamentals/guidetogouges.pdf
http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm

Mobyturns
3rd April 2015, 10:06 PM
I know (and understand) that because of the sharp corners , this tool is designed for between centres and should not be used on bowls. However, can I use it to flatten stuff that will later be turned into bowls or is all faceplate work banned ??
Steve

Steve, many milled bowl gouges are supplied stock standard with "sharp corners." Tool presentation and awareness of the position of the actual "cutting portion" of the cutting edge, wings and corners is a significant part of learning tool skills. The sequence of cuts is also very important.

I'm not sure what you are referring too when you say "flatten stuff that will later be turned into bowls." Are you saying trimming to round? or simply flattening off the face of the blank? or rough turning to shape with over thickness walls to hasten drying of wet timber?

WaggaSteve
3rd April 2015, 10:44 PM
I almost said the answer could be in the name

Spindle Roughing Gouge
^^^^^

WaggaSteve
3rd April 2015, 10:53 PM
Trimming to round and possibly flattening face
Steve

Steve, many milled bowl gouges are supplied stock standard with "sharp corners." Tool presentation and awareness of the position of the actual "cutting portion" of the cutting edge, wings and corners is a significant part of learning tool skills. The sequence of cuts is also very important.

I'm not sure what you are referring too when you say "flatten stuff that will later be turned into bowls." Are you saying trimming to round? or simply flattening off the face of the blank? or rough turning to shape with over thickness walls to hasten drying of wet timber?

Mobyturns
3rd April 2015, 11:05 PM
Trimming to round and possibly flattening face
Steve

Give the SRG a wide berth and go for a milled fluted bowl gouge i.e. "bowl gouge". look up some of Glen Lucas' or Mike Mahoney's DVD's & videos on roughing and coring bowls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NaBnaMnLJI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz_0jHdjdh0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY2OnZmeZOA

Luke Maddux
4th April 2015, 12:52 AM
My interpretation of the original post was that he was wanting to use the roughing gouge to basically rough the stock to round, then sit it aside. So after you bandsaw off the corners the first thing you do after the lathe turns on is hit the edges of the somewhat-round blank with the bowl gouge, thus making it truly round. THEN you move to the actual "face" of the blank and start to shape the bowl.

In the ill-fated video the guy is doing what everyone knows not to do, which is approach the face of the faceplate with the roughing gouge. Just to clarify: I do not in any way endorse this practice, and if my original post read in such a way that felt otherwise please accept my apology.

BUT I'm still not convinced that the same violent reaction would occur if you were just doing it to rough the bowl blank to round, which is what I thought was being asked. As Steve clarified in his last post, he did intend to flatten the face, so he now knows not to.

But what about roughing to round? It seems like you're eliminating the factors at play which make it so dangerous by not approaching the face of the blank.

Thoughts?

Evanism
4th April 2015, 01:40 AM
It was good to hear Robbos voice again.

I'll tell you what, if a bloke with that vaaaasssstttt experience tells you not to do something and then shows a finger almost being torn OFF in way of demonstration, its good enough for me!

Thanks for the timely reminder all!

Ari2
4th April 2015, 09:23 AM
Good clip of how not to use a spindle gouge... ouch.

pommyphil
4th April 2015, 10:25 AM
So..... do we classify the 32mm P&N SRG ( milled from 32mm round bar) as an enormous bowl gouge ( at an enormous price!)

Mobyturns
4th April 2015, 11:12 AM
So..... do we classify the 32mm P&N SRG ( milled from 32mm round bar) as an enormous bowl gouge ( at an enormous price!)

Pommyphil I agree we do require a better way of classifying tools.

There are always exceptions! :D and there will always be gifted & talented turners who can turn with what ever is at hand. :rolleyes:

The P&N's are manufactured in a some what similar manner to a modern milled bowl gouge except for the additional manufacturing steps to reduce the round bar stock to the final tang diameter for practicality of fitting it into a tool handle. I'm not sure what tool steel P&N use in their SRG's (will have to find out).

The name of the game is wood turning and part of the game plan is to walk away uninjured after each session. :wink: I have no desire to use a P&N 32 mm or even the 25 mm SRG as a bowl gouge, due to my personal assessment of the potential risk of injury to myself, but no doubt there are turners who could use them very skillfully (or quite dangerously).

I love the 25 mm P&N SRG I have, I prefer to use it over my forged SRG's but I have no desire to use it as a bowl gouge as the flute design is not what we have come to expect from modern "V" or "U" fluted bowl gouges.



To add a little to this discussion, tool designs have evolved, so should we. One reason I have labored to distinguish between forged & milled manufacturing processes in this thread is the following,

There is very significant differences in how the tool steel itself is manufactured to achieve the alloying of the steels, then in the manufacturing - forging (stamping) vs milling (cutting & grinding), the heat treating, tempering and annealing of steels to ensure a uniform hardness and other desired wear, edge holding, "grindability" and performance properties etc.

Forged tools from Carbon or M2 HSS will never be as consistent, reliable or as strong as milled tools from CPM alloyed steel tools (from reputable sources of course). They can't possibly be due to the way the alloying of the steel is controlled in the steel making process. CPM processes evolved & were developed to over come the inconsistencies in alloying of steels using traditional steel making processes.

Have you heard many turners say "its a lottery with cheap tools some are good some are bad." Well partly it is the steel making process itself and partly the final steel heat treating, annealing processes at fault.

Pat
4th April 2015, 11:40 AM
P&N make a 22mm bowl gouge for roughing bowl blanks, I have a 19mm Kelton Bowl gouge for the same duty. SRG's are just too dangerous for that task. You might get away with it for months then you may end in hospital having surgery to fix up injuries sustained by misuse of a tool. For me, it is a enjoyable hobby that does not entail reckless endangerment of myself. The right tool for the right job.

Paul39
4th April 2015, 11:57 AM
So..... do we classify the 32mm P&N SRG ( milled from 32mm round bar) as an enormous bowl gouge ( at an enormous price!)

If it were 32mm all the way back and 200mm into a big hunk of timber with a steel ferrule and a mild swept back grind. Yes. I don't think you could keep a blank in the chuck or on the faceplate if you were to use the big gouge to its full capability.

It is necked down and if you were hogging out a 600mm bowl on your 3 HP lathe and had a catch it might break the tang or tear it out of the handle.

Waggasteve & Luke, you are both presumed adults and can do anything you wish. If you are going to do experiments that might be risky, it would be good to have someone around in case you need medical care.

The spindle roughing gouge has a reduced tang, as in its intended use the forces are not so great. With larger spindles as Retired made, 8.9 meters long and 300mm diameter, he would break the tangs on his spindle gouges. He would weld nice big tangs on and put on big fat handles. See: http://www.ubeaut.com.au/.htm

One could probably get away with facing off a bowl blank with a spindle roughing gouge. If you were to use the SRG for rounding off the outside rim by coming in from the edge you will likely have an interrupted cut which will put more stress on the tang, and as the SRG is capable of taking a bigger bite, it might knock the blank out of the chuck or off the face plate.

Using a bowl gouge or 1/2 inch spindle gouge rolled over on its side, both having a mild swept back grind, start a cut on the face of a bowl blank far enough in from the rim to have timber all the way around, push toward the headstock. It makes a nice clean slice with no banging from an interrupted cut.

I make bowls, and for my limited spindle work, tool handles for my own use, I use a 5/8 inch bowl gouge or a 3/4 inch spindle gouge. I don't own a SRG.

Even with a couple years experience and carefully using a 5/8 inch bowl gouge on a rock hard piece of black locust stump that had holes and crazy grain, I had the piece come out of the the lathe three times. The first catch it broke two #10 screws and ripped out two others and flew 20 feet across the yard. Finished bowl below.

Wood turners have been killed by bowls coming out of a lathe.

http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?8706-Woodturner-Joan-Kelly-passed

Mobyturns
4th April 2015, 12:27 PM
My interpretation of ....

In the ill-fated video the guy is doing what everyone knows not to do, .....

BUT I'm still not convinced that the same violent reaction would occur ......

But what about roughing to round? It seems like you're eliminating the factors at play which make it so dangerous by not approaching the face of the blank.

Thoughts?


Luke, My thoughts, I have picked key words/phrases for comment, not to pick on you or any one in particular - just general observations on humans & woodturning.

Your interpretation is different from mine, we all interpret what we read, hear and see slightly differently but generally through our schooling and education we form common opinions and come to common conclusions. We all have different backgrounds, life experience and formal and informal education. Just because an interpretation or conclusion is common does not necessarily make it good, bad or even correct just the commonly accepted interpretation / opinion / conclusion but most likely reflects the current state of knowledge.

As for doing what "everyone knows not to do" is much the same as saying its "common sense." Unfortunately "common sense" or "everyone knows" are dangerous generalizations when it comes to hazard management - because of the above paragraph – its not so common and is not universal knowledge.

"Not being convinced" is a good attribute to have because it means one is learning about and is questioning the merits of various processes and the hazards presented through them. It can also have potential downsides if one consistently goes against the current body of knowledge. Unfortunately through many factors we have also lost some of the old skills and that "body of knowledge" (see video below). Like why we moved away from forged & tanged bowl/spindle gouges, or the benefits of using screw chucks, face plates and other work holding techniques, hand chasing threads etc.

Eliminating hazards & risk is an excellent view to have and is what we all should be attempting to achieve! As you say by learning appropriate skills and technique we can indeed use a forged & tanged bowl gouge to rough and turn bowls relatively “safely” but there are “safer” alternatives. In fact all turners did until the 1960's, when tool development changed our common opinion of what tools are "safe" to use on bowls. What we really should be thinking about now is “Are the old forged tools less hazardous i.e. "safer" than the new milled tools?” I would say on the evidence that the new milled tools win hands down on all counts - no contest!

Have a good look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_Ph6nZfGE – the tools & techniques are purported to be from 1926 well prior to milled bowl gouges and 4 jaw scroll chucks. At 2:42 using what we now call a “continental spindle gouge”; 3:13 clearly using a “negative rake scraper” a skew chisel on the outside of a bowl and with a “down handle” presentation; 4:41 clearly a tanged continental spindle gouge used to hollow the bowl; Now pop to 6:06 and watch the catch from the “Hook Tool” & 6:14 a skew inside a bowl. Shock horror to the naysayers today!

Yes it was done but we now have “safer options” & that is why popular opinion now is “do not use a skew or a spindle roughing gouge (SRG) on bowl blanks!”

Evanism
4th April 2015, 09:36 PM
What a FANTASTIC video Mobyturns.

Being killed on an lathe explosion is something I came close to experiencing. Its a thread here somewhere. Its not about using the wrong tool, which I won't labour, but safety. The bowl broke and half absolutely smashed me in the face. Broke the ridge between my eyes, the cartilage where it joins, split the left nostril open and the right was cut from the top right to the the edge of my face. It was a massive impact and left me stunned. Blood absolutely everywhere. Absolutely everywhere... roof, floor, walls, lathe, it even was on the table saw behind me.

It was a scene from a Tarantino film.

After it reflected off my head, it hit the roof, tore the lining and dented the metal. The roof is not fixed and is used as a constant reminder.

There are some pix of me hamming it up somewhere (even a near death experience can't knock some sensibleness into me) but it reminded me that safety is important.

It took me 6 full months to touch that lathe again. I now love it to bits.

My nose aches frequently, even tonight.

Listen to , he knows his stuff.

Mobyturns
5th April 2015, 07:27 AM
Being killed on an lathe explosion is something I came close to experiencing. ....

Listen to , he knows his stuff.

Unfortunately there are many stories like yours around that very few wood turners ever hear about. You are most fortunate to have not been knocked unconscious by the impact. I'm glad it has a relatively happy ending though enduring complications are never "happy" reminders.

At Turnfest a friend mentioned that fairly recently a turner in NSW was hit by a jaw from a spinning chuck. Some how it became dislodged and smacked him in the face causing significant injury.

Pat
5th April 2015, 09:24 AM
Moby, I've had a 20" (508mm) Longsworth attached to a Titan chuck unscrew, due to the differences of deceleration of the spindle and chuck. :doh: Not a nice feeling, especially when it crushes a nearly finished burl bowl against the live centre in the tail stock. Now I manually decelerated the chuck from 500-600 rpm . . . EVS is a wonderful thing, electronic braking has it's issues, especially with larger pieces and their inherent momentum.

Mobyturns
6th April 2015, 10:39 AM
Moby, I've had a 20" (508mm) Longsworth attached to a Titan chuck unscrew, due to the differences of deceleration of the spindle and chuck. :doh: Not a nice feeling, especially when it crushes a nearly finished burl bowl against the live centre in the tail stock. Now I manually decelerated the chuck from 500-600 rpm . . . EVS is a wonderful thing, electronic braking has it's issues, especially with larger pieces and their inherent momentum.

Pat, that is another quite common hazard. In the event I'm referring to the chuck stayed on the lathe but one jaw flew off hitting the gentleman in the forehead. Apparently after some minor treatment he was released from ED but quite some time later it was discovered that there were more serious complications from bone fractures. I don't have full details.

There was a similar event where a chuck jaw departed the chuck in NZ last year - fortunately only a brown pants event & no injury.

NeilS
6th April 2015, 03:59 PM
So..... do we classify the 32mm P&N SRG ( milled from 32mm round bar) as an enormous bowl gouge ( at an enormous price!)

Phil

It's an enormous gouge, whatever you call it!

And, I love mine.

But, the reason they don't make 32mm bowl gouges is that the cut is just too massive for most of us to manage.

The nice thing about the bowl gouge is that is the ideal gouge for turning bowls.

I have a 25mm bowl gouge, but it only comes out to play very occasionally. You rarely need a gouge as large as that. If they made (and I could afford) a 32mm bowl gouge it would never leave the tool rack.

When roughing a faceplate blank down to round it is just as quick to use a sturdy 1/2"or 5/8" bowl gouge on that interrupt cut.

PS - The P&N steel is/was good value for the money.

pommyphil
6th April 2015, 04:36 PM
Neil
Yes, I've got a couple of 16mm P&N bowl gouges that I use all the time and a 19mm that rarely gets used.

I just got a brand new P&N 32mm SRG on eBay for $61.The 290mm handle was way too short, a 420mm oak handle has balanced it nicely.

I was just pointing out that everything milled from round bar is not a bowl gouge :) Phil

NeilS
7th April 2015, 12:41 AM
Neil

I just got a brand new P&N 32mm SRG on eBay for $61.The 290mm handle was way too short, a 420mm oak handle has balanced it nicely.

I was just pointing out that everything milled from round bar is not a bowl gouge :) Phil

Great buy at that price, Phil.

Likewise, I added a longer handle.

Yes, I understood that you were making sure that there was no confusion and it was a good point that you were making. I just couldn't resist making a Crocodile Dundee Now That's a knife (http://img.pandawhale.com/post-40588-thats-not-a-knife-thats-a-knoi-BoIl.gif)* comment... :rolleyes:

*Do a reload of that window if it doesn't auto-run.

Paul39
7th April 2015, 12:50 AM
A lathe to fit a 32mm bowl gouge.:D:D:D

http://www.dunn247.co.uk/east%20gateshead/Page%20111/image009.jpg

NeilS
9th April 2015, 10:46 AM
A lathe to fit a 32mm bowl gouge.:D:D:D

http://www.dunn247.co.uk/east%20gateshead/Page%20111/image009.jpg

Now, that's a lathe!