Pentacryl for drying burls?

[Phily]

The claim is that soaking in Pentacryl can reduce drying times by as much as 90%, yet I've seen very little comment or discussion regarding its use on Australian green burl. My suspicion is that it is simply too expensive to be given any serious consideration, but I'm only guessing.

Interested to hear from anyone that has had experience in drying burls via this method.

Cheers
Phil

[Evanism]

http://youtu.be/FY8JfmfHnm0

Interesting stuff. Hideously expensive (in the vid he used a litre in a small log). Where does the water go?

[Phily]

Looks like he soaked enough timber for 2 smallish bowls and that he used around a quart, or 1 litre of solution. At $80 per litre, that's extremely expensive! The advertising states "On average, a green 6" x 6" x 2" bowl blank would absorb 2 ounces of solution, be fully saturated in a week, and, if turned thin, dry in about three weeks".

Not sure what 2oz equates to in volume though likely to be well under a litre. It suggests therefore that there is a more cost effective way of using the solution?

As a side note, you can buy a quart for $18 in the US. For exactly the same product, it is $80 here. Can't blame GST as we have a free trade agreement. If its any good I might import some and make it available to Members at a reasonable price!!

[Paul39]

Doing a little research I find:

http://www.preservation-solutions.com/wood-treatment-products/wood-treatment-faqs/pentacryl-faqs/

http://www.preservation-solutions.com/pentacryl-hemlock-case-study/

http://www.ronkent.com/techniques.php

http://owic.oregonstate.edu/sites/default/files/pubs/peg.pdf

http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/wag/2006/pine_06.pdf

I have soaked roughed out bowls in half dish washing liquid and half water for about a week, then drain and wrap in several layers of news paper.

I have also put a roughed bowl in a slow cooker and simmered overnight, then drained and wrapped in newspaper.

I then periodically stick them in a microwave and heat until the paper is warm to the touch. Experiment with yours to get a time. Mine is 3 - 6 minutes with a low powered non rotating one. I have charred wood when I left it too long when almost dry.

I do this to reduce splitting. It mostly does.

Some folks soak the bowl in wood alcohol, methyl??

There is a guy who swears by boiling soppy wet roughed out bowls for 2 hours.

There are many paths to the same place.

[Phily]

Paul,
Many thanks for the research and the information provided. Really useful, interesting and valuable. Earlier this year I ran an experiment on microwave drying (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=196042) and it comes to mind that there would be value conducting a similar experiment incorporating soap and water.

I have a few ideas already but will obviously research further - following the advice in the links given as to what works and what doesn't.

I'm really pleased that I posted the question.

Thanks again Paul.

[hughie]

In my experience no one solution works on every species. I have tried 50/50 soap and water, water soaking for weeks, Meths soaking also for a few weeks all as rough outs etc. But it seems to me that soft timbers will respond to most of them fairly well, with each species working better on some process more than others. Aussie hard woods, well that another story altogether. I am coming around to the idea that not many if any at all will shorten the seasoning period. The hardness and denseness we like about them works against soaking and various other processes.
But I would be very happy to be proved wrong. :U

[Pat]

I just rough them out, seal them in Mobilizer and leave for a year or so . . . I roughed out a Sassy in 08 and finally got roundtoit this year. :U

[Phily]

Awwww, you had to spoil it!!! For a few hours I thought I'd uncovered a way to both soften the burls for turning and fast track their drying. I'm still going to experiment though - maybe rough turn then heat up in the MW then soak in alcohol & soap for a couple of days. I thought of making some comment about it being a proven approach given how effective hot water, alcohol & soap can be in softening up certain (tuff nut) people, but thought better of it!!!

[hughie]

Awwww, you had to spoil it!!! For a few hours I thought I'd uncovered a way to both soften the burls for turning and fast track their drying. I'm still going to experiment though - maybe rough turn then heat up in the MW then soak in alcohol & soap for a couple of days. I thought of making some comment about it being a proven approach given how effective hot water, alcohol & soap can be in softening up certain (tuff nut) people, but thought better of it!!!

yup give it a go, might just be the answer.

[dai sensei]

Awwww, you had to spoil it!!! For a few hours I thought I'd uncovered a way to both soften the burls for turning and fast track their drying. I'm still going to experiment though - maybe rough turn then heat up in the MW then soak in alcohol & soap for a couple of days. I thought of making some comment about it being a proven approach given how effective hot water, alcohol & soap can be in softening up certain (tuff nut) people, but thought better of it!!!.

I tried the mix of Metho/detergent/water (equal parts) and it was no better than just water and detergent, both disapointing, but I was doing mainly sheoak

[hughie]

heres another one from the US http://www.cedarcide.com/product/cedarshield-deck-dock-fence-exterior-wood-waterproofer/ again not cheap

[Phily]

Thanks Sensei, even though its sounding more and more like I need to be patient and let the burls dry naturally or invest half my retirement funds into expensive imported product. NB Hughie, I get a bad Gateway from your link. I did a search on Cedarcide and found a product for killing bed bugs!!

[Oldgreybeard]

NB Hughie, I get a bad Gateway from your link. I did a search on Cedarcide and found a product for killing bed bugs!!

Worked Ok for me and came up with
CedarShield Deck Dock Fence – Wood Treatment$45.99 for 1 Gallon.

Bob

[hughie]

Thanks Sensei, even though its sounding more and more like I need to be patient and let the burls dry naturally or invest half my retirement funds into expensive imported product. NB Hughie, I get a bad Gateway from your link. I did a search on Cedarcide and found a product for killing bed bugs!!
Yeah it has many uses, scroll through the site about half way down from memory

[soundman]

A thaught ... The reason that alcahol in particular metho is effective in drying things out is .... that it is very hydroscopic ...... the water gets drawn into and absorbed by the metho ...... the metho in turn travels thru the timber better and evaporates way faster than the water.

Mixing water with metho negates this property ..... the metho becomes loaded with water and will absorb no more.

Not sure how metho and detergent alone works . ..... but I suspect it will have no advantage over either ..... detergent breaks down surface tension in water allowing it to travel faster thru the tissue and there will be some hydroscopic effects with the water in the timber if the detergent is used neat, water being inclined to dilute the concentrated detergent solution.

Metho alone I think will probably mobilise the water as well as it would with added detergent.

Now here is another thaught ........ I have in the past stabilised softish blanks that are already dry with shelac ...... it makes soft timbers cut very much cleaner ...... though to this point I have used this on dry material .... I have used the microwave extensivly .......

but it occurs to me that soaking in shelac may be a good plan ...... because the shelac will tend to replace the water in the tissues, stabilise and harden them ..... so it might be worth a try.

One thing though ..... it occurs to me there are phases to drying where certain advantages come into play ....... It would seem to me that trying to work with wood that is green ... I mean green is a hard job ...... letting it dry for a bit first like down to about 30%mc will make things way easier.

cheers

[Phily]

Thanks Soundman, you raise some interesting and logical points. I wonder however if the shellack particulates are small enough to be dragged into the cells by the alcohol - perhaps warming the timber in the MW immediately prior to soaking may assist?
What I am also finding interesting is that no-one seems to have actually used Pentacryl hence all the discussion on alternative approaches. Certainly doesn't seem to be a product that folk are raving about!