Can someone make me some tools please

[Southgippsland]

Hi to all wood and metal workers. I joined this forum because I have a request to make. I am a rug maker and our style of rug making [called hooked rugs] uses a rug hook shaped like a crochet hook but with a wider shank and a wooden handle added.At the moment I buy my hand-made hooks from Ireland and resell them back to the world [as well as Aus]. My question is this. Are their any metal workers and wood workers here that could make these hooks for me?An Australian timber would be great- say a eucalypt maybe and the hooks are made from brass as is the ferule and very finely polished. I would like an exact duplicate of the hooks that I carry [I carry several sizes and styles with two different style handles] The wood handles are so smooth they feel like silk.What do you think? I hope someone will consider having a go. I can get a hook to you to have a look at but you can get an idea of the sort of thing I am after first from the photos.They would have to be under $20 each for me to buy wholesale, hopefully no more than $18.00 as I will resell. Surely we can make these in Aus. Thank you in anticipation. I hope I will get lots of response.

373666

[KBs PensNmore]

Welcome to the Forum. The picture you put up is that a set or are they supplied individually? Any chance of some detailed measurements, please. Diameter and length of brass, length of handles diam, and sizes of ferrules. What sort of quantity are you looking at 10, 20, 50, 100, as this will have a variance on the price.

[dai sensei]

Am I correct in saying you want, "a handle, with ferrule, with hand made hook from brass", all for less than $20 ?

[Luke Maddux]

Sounds like a big ask for under $20.

Have you considered buying the hook pieces in bulk and then approaching some woodturners about installing them into the handles?

[DSEL74]

I'm sure these can easily be made here in australia, but have you consider what the material cost would be, + how long it would take to do?
Doesn't leave much of an hourly rate for the worker so you can potentially on sell at twice the price.

With your business model proposed you need to buy something cheap made in a china sweat shop.

[cava]

:whs:

[old1955]

Welcome to the forum.

[ian]

Sounds like a big ask for under $20.agree

with material costs, a person would have to crank out 5 or 6 an hour to show any profit

[rob streeper]

Your brass alone at the prices I get, assuming 8mm solid brass rod and .6125 X 0.045" tubing for the ferrule will run you nearly $4AU before machining, making the handle and assembly.

You can likely get these made up in China cheaper but be ready to spring for a 5000 piece minimum of each design.

[Southgippsland]

Correct

[Big Shed]

Your brass alone at the prices I get, assuming 8mm solid brass rod and .6125 X 0.045" tubing for the ferrule will run you nearly $4AU before machining, making the handle and assembly.

You can likely get these made up in China cheaper but be ready to spring for a 5000 piece minimum of each design.

Ready made brass ferrules are readily available in a range of sizes.

[Southgippsland]

It is not a set. They are sold individually

[Southgippsland]

I hear what you are saying, but for me to compete my mark-up is very small, nowhere near double.

[Southgippsland]

Welcome to the forum.


Thank you

[ian]

I hear what you are saying, but for me to compete my mark-up is very small, nowhere near double.I'm sure there are a few who are hearing what you say.
And can work out what they would need to do to make these to your specifications -- what you shouldn't be expecting is a commercial maker to work for less than the dole.

Of course, working for beer money is a completely different matter.
Do you know how your existing hooks are polished? Could it be by tumbling them in a barrel filled with plastic beads?

[DSEL74]

The ferrules shown aren't just the cut tube variety they are close ended ones.

We also still don't know the volume of each that are being asked for?

[rob streeper]

Ready made brass ferrules are readily available in a range of sizes.

Do you know of better than these (hopefully)? Brass Ferrules - Lee Valley Tools (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,41504&p=30021)

[hughie]

Hi to all wood and metal workers. I joined this forum because I have a request to make. I am a rug maker and our style of rug making [called hooked rugs] uses a rug hook shaped like a crochet hook but with a wider shank and a wooden handle added.At the moment I buy my hand-made hooks from Ireland and resell them back to the world [as well as Aus]. My question is this. Are their any metal workers and wood workers here that could make these hooks for me?An Australian timber would be great- say a eucalypt maybe and the hooks are made from brass as is the ferule and very finely polished. I would like an exact duplicate of the hooks that I carry [I carry several sizes and styles with two different style handles] The wood handles are so smooth they feel like silk.What do you think? I hope someone will consider having a go. I can get a hook to you to have a look at but you can get an idea of the sort of thing I am after first from the photos.They would have to be under $20 each for me to buy wholesale, hopefully no more than $18.00 as I will resell. Surely we can make these in Aus. Thank you in anticipation. I hope I will get lots of response.

373666

I think your pricing is way off considering the material cost and labour. As suggested get them made in a third world country and if the pricing you suggest is the going rate for these items. Then most assuredly they are made in China with that try Shop rug making online Gallery - Buy rug making for unbeatable low prices on AliExpress.com (http://www.aliexpress.com/af/rug-making.html?ltype=wholesale&d=y&origin=n&isViewCP=y&catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20160309215905&SearchText=rug+making) etc

[Big Shed]

Considering these are available ex UK with postage included a local would have to produce these very cheaply indeed if you want to compete with that

Hemline Latch Hook Tool FOR RUG Making Latch Hooks Rugs Shipping IS Free | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hemline-Latch-Hook-Tool-for-Rug-Making-Latch-Hooks-Rugs-Shipping-is-Free-/181858583233?hash=item2a579dc2c1:g:azgAAOSwLVZV6qPW)

Latch Hook RUG Making Tool Huge Saving | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Latch-Hook-Rug-Making-Tool-Huge-Saving-/181783518186?hash=item2a53245bea:g:c-wAAOSwT6pVieIj)

[Mobyturns]

Slight difference in quality from the ones shown by the OP to those in the links above. Bit like comparing top end wood turning chisels/gouges with box store sets.

The handles fitted with standard ferrules would not be an issue for a competent spindle turner however sourcing the brass hooks at a reasonable unit price would be the most significant hurdle to manufacture these locally in Australia.

[Big Shed]

As has been pointed out already, the ferrules are not standard (tube) ferrules, but semi-closed at the end.

The OP pointed out that he already has a source for the hooks (Ireland).

Whilst I realise that the 2 I linked to aren't of the same quality I merely showed them to show what is already available to rug makers at a very competitive price.

[Luke Maddux]

It seems we unanimously agree that it's going to be hard or impossible to make them at that cost.

Have you considered continuing to import and offer your "run of the mill" variety and then offering some kind of "elite grade" option? Something which is made locally using native Australian hardwoods, engraved with your logo and, perhaps, stamped as part of a series or something like that? Then you could sell them at high dollar and you could pay the maker a better price.

Given that your tools are being purchased by craftsmen/women, it seems like you might be tapped into a market which includes people who would appreciate that kind of thing. I feel somewhat comfortable making the generalization that most people on this forum fall into the category of "people who value classy tools".

Just a thought...

[Sturdee]

They would have to be under $20 each for me to buy wholesale, hopefully no more than $18.00 as I will resell.


In the words of Darryl Kerrigan: Tell him he's dreaming .... tell him. Tell 'em. Go on tell him.

[ian]

can I return to the OP's original question and break this task down into its components.


Are their any metal workers and wood workers here that could make these hooks for me?
373666
the hooks are made from brass as is the ferule and very finely polished. I would like an exact duplicate of the hooks well the hooks appear to be milled from two different diameters of brass rod -- I'm guessing using a CNC machine with auto feed.
Turning them on a lathe would be another option, but smoothing and polishing the hook part would appear time intensive.

Based on Rob stepper's observation, the brass rod (at retail) would cost around $4 per unit -- though to me this seems high.
the closed ferules, would be about 60 cents each, plus shipping from Lee Valley.

then there's achieving a "very fine" polish -- I'm guessing it's done by tumbling the hooks in a barrel of plastic beads.

All up, my "guestimate" is that the brass hooks (and matching ferules) could be produced in a home shop for around $10 per unit.
an auto feed CNC should bring this down somewhat, but the OP has to be prepared to allow the maker to amortize the cost of the tooling.

I'd be very interested to know what the unit cost of the metal parts -- separately for the metal hook and the ferule -- out of Ireland would be.

then

two different style handles
The wood handles are so smooth they feel like silk.
so the challenge is to suggest an appropriate Australian wood that will finish "silky smooth" off the lathe, preferably without sanding, and probably after finishing with something like the sponsor's hard shellac.
Whatever finish is used it must be durable, not (never?) transfer onto a user's hands or rug materials (so can't be an oil), etc.
Off-hand I know of no eucalypt that would finish to "silky smooth" off the tool.

can some turners suggest suitable Australian timbers that would finish "silky smooth" without resource to a CA finish?

with a suggested per unit cost.


lastly is the quantity.
if it were me, I'd only take the task on for a minimum quantity of 200 of each style of handle = 600 units
making anything less, number wise, would make it very difficult to recover the set-up costs.


so in a sense over to the OP.

Can the metal hook be sourced in quantity from Ireland -- say in batches of 100 in each style. For just the hooks, air freight / air mail should be viable.
can you provide the dimensions of the hock's shaft so that a suitable ferule can be priced or can these also be sourced from Ireland



To the OP
I don't wish to be negative or rain on your idea, I just believe it's in everyone's interests to use this sort of discussion to highlight the true cost of custom work.
the cost of a custom tool handle is a lot more than a few cents of wood from the firewood pile.

A few weeks ago we were discussing duplicating some simple turned legs. One of the responses included a very time efficient method of making exact, high tolerance, duplicates -- whilst the method was very efficient, the set-up time was significant meaning that for a small quantity, recovering the set-up time becomes the major component of the final item cost.

[Southgippsland]

Thank you Ian for your very comprehensive answer. I appreciate your honesty and realism.
I think I might have to rethink the whole idea and continue to import them for the time being, while the other option of buying the brass shaft and ferule can also be looked at.
I also never thought that the timber itself has a bearing on how smooth it can be polished, that's also something consider as yew wood when polished is very tactile and smooth and yes, I would appreciate anyone's opinion as to a suitable Aussie timber for this.
The quantity is another matter. Right now I am very small but that may grow in the future.
Lots of food for thought. Thank you
Chris
------------------------------------------------------

[Southgippsland]

Sounds like a big ask for under $20.

Have you considered buying the hook pieces in bulk and then approaching some woodturners about installing them into the handles?

Its an alternative, yes

[rob streeper]

When you consider making an item you need to keep in mind your other costs as well. These overhead items include taxes, your labor (assuming it's only you), cost-of-money, shipping and handling charges, warehousing cost, advertising costs, consumables used in manufacture, consumables for shipping and packaging, a website or other customer portal, wastage, loss, customer returns etc. If the manufacture of your product costs more than 25% of it's final sale price you're in the 'labor of love' or hobby type business - not a money maker. For instance, I make saws. The materials in a dovetail saw run $10 to $15 each. There's between 10 and 14 hours of labor in each. If I want to pay myself ~$20/hr I need to price a dovetail saw at > $225. This price only includes the materials and my labor, not all of the overhead items that really go into the true total cost. Thus, dovetail saws = hobby business. Most manufactured items need to cost less than ~10% of their sales prices to be commercially viable.

[Southgippsland]

The ferrules shown aren't just the cut tube variety they are close ended ones.

We also still don't know the volume of each that are being asked for?
I am only a hobbiest so at present 20-50 units a month, hopefully growing.

[ian]

I am only a hobbiest so at present 20-50 units a month, hopefully growing.to add some more perspective

the other day I was in my "local" furniture grade wood store, looking at wood suitable for a work bench.

Ash was about CAD $8 board foot and was available in boards 1", 2" or 3" thick -- a board foot is a plank 12" wide x 1" thick x 12 inches long.
3" boards can be resawn to yield two 1.5" planks. 1.5 inch appears to be slightly more than the largest diameter of your handles.
If I'd bought the one piece of 3" thick material in stock, it would have cost me about CAD $140 and been sufficient to make around 200 handles.
For an initial order of 50 handles, I would have to recover from you the total cost to me of the wood -- $140 plus my vehicle running costs works out at about $3 per handle before I put a blade to the wood.

I know these are not numbers you want to hear.

[rob streeper]

I am only a hobbiest so at present 20-50 units a month, hopefully growing.

You want to focus on your top-end clients. Make something better than the items you have been selling and you can sell it for more. Think Gucci not Walmart. Per piece, expensive hardwood isn't much of an added cost and you can get a higher final sales price. Australia has many beautiful species of hardwood available, use them. 304 stainless is comparable in price to brass but if nobody is making rug hooks using it, assuming there's no reason not to, you can differentiate yourself by using it.

For about $5AU more you could use nickel-silver and really set your product apart. https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=17889&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1262&top_cat=79

Add in a nice handle of figured Bubinga say, https://www.gilmerwood.com/items_new.php?species=Bubinga

And your $40 rug hook looks more like a $100 rug hook for about $10 more.

[brendan stemp]

I'd be happy to give it a crack. That's why I bought a cnc lathe. Please contact me on [email protected] so we can communicate further.

[ian]

Hi Brendan

I'm curious to hear which Australian timbers, from your experience, would turn to a "silky smooth" finish.


and best wishes for the project.

[pommyphil]

Forest Oak would be my pick.

[pommyphil]

Like these, hard, pretty and silky smooth.373980

[brendan stemp]

Given enough sanding I think most timbers would end of silky smooth. I would lean towards Buloke because I can get hold of it easily and it looks beautiful.

[ian]

Some years ago I went to a talk by Mike Darlow. Mike was adamant that the mark of a competent (and therefore financially successful) turner was the ability to produce a finish ready surface off the tool, without recourse to sanding.
IIRC, according to Mike, it comes down to selecting the right tool and grinding angle


so in the context of what we've been discussing in this thread, sanding to achieve a highly tactile silky smooth surface would appear to take far too long

[smiife]

Some years ago I went to a talk by Mike Darlow. Mike was adamant that the mark of a competent (and therefore financially successful) turner was the ability to produce a finish ready surface off the tool, without recourse to sanding.
IIRC, according to Mike, it comes down to selecting the right tool and grinding angle


so in the context of what we've been discussing in this thread, sanding to achieve a highly tactile silky smooth surface would appear to take far too long

Hi Ian,
Why would It take too long, a small handle I reckon
would take about 10 seconds for each grit , 6 grits
=1 minute , you would sand all handles at once, so
50 handles =50 minutes+10 minutes for a coffee break:U

[pommyphil]

Sharp skew, wipe with 400, then 600, then EEE.

[smiife]

Sharp skew, wipe with 400, then 600, then EEE.

I was being generous with 6 grits :U:U

[clear out]

Ian I'd be carefull over there who you mention Mike's name to.
Mike and I were both ejected from a woodwork exhibition here in Sydney back in the 80s.
As we were driving off in my ute Mike said I've been chucked out of much better exhibitions than that.
He then told me how he was run out of town on a rail in Chillawac BC.
Whilst on tour after judging the local turners offerings he made some comment about acres of dross.
Didnt go down too well even in Canada.
H.

[Sawdust Maker]

birds eye huon

gidgee

coolabah burl

mallee burl

MacKay cedar

one could come up with many timbers for high end sets which would look spectacular


And I was wondering why brass?

[pommyphil]

birds eye huon

gidgee

coolabah burl

mallee burl

MacKay cedar

one could come up with many timbers for high end sets which would look spectacular


And I was wondering why brass?


Easy to cast and polish ??

[Sturdee]

I'd be happy to give it a crack. That's why I bought a cnc lathe. Please contact me on [email protected] so we can communicate further.

Bit pointless to continue discussion on this subject as the OP has found, through this thread, an expert turner to make them.

Peter.

[ian]

so in the context of what we've been discussing in this thread, sanding to achieve a highly tactile silky smooth surface would appear to take far too long


Hi Ian,
Why would It take too long, a small handle I reckon
would take about 10 seconds for each grit , 6 grits
=1 minute , you would sand all handles at once, so
50 handles =50 minutes+10 minutes for a coffee break:U

again in the context of the discussion ...
I believe Mike's response would be along the lines that in the 50 minutes you plan on spending sanding he would have turned another 10 handles -- meaning the labour component of each of his handles would be less, which in turn would mean that the return per handle was greater.

Remember, that Mike's context is as a production turner, running a business and supporting a family from the turnings produced in an inner Sydney workshop.

[ian]

And I was wondering why brass?relatively easy to shape and polish?