Integrity test, how are your standards????

[Rowan]

I was recently faced with an interesting situation and wonder how most people would deal with it. Once the results are in I will fill in all the details but here is an outline.

You purchase something on line using your credit card. You recieve the item and the invoice/reciept.
There are two of the item, you only ordered and were charged for one!!!!
Is this a bonus or do you return it??????

[echnidna]

an Ebay vendor sent me the wrong item by mistake (which I needed later on so I kept it) The vendor and I agreed to purchase the item I wanted and we sorted the money out amicably.

[ozwinner]

Had a similar situation at the shop last friday.
A guy came in to buy some steel.
Picks out the steel and I tell him $50.
He then tells me all sheepish that his wallet is in the car as he had been a good boy and washed his dirty clothes so as to save the SWMBO from doing it.

Problem was he had left his wallet in his pants, now everything is soggy.

He gave me the $50 and I said the wash must have made it thicker as it felt thicker than normal.

I retuned to the shop till to put the $50 in and discovered that two $50 were stuck together.

I then returned to the guy and told him not to wash his money again and I gave him one $50 back.

Al http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/angels/littleangel.gif

[echnidna]

Good one Al :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Driver]

Well done, Al. I'm going to send you a greenie if the BB will let me.

I've frequently been surprised at similar demonstrations of genuine honesty and I've been disgusted by the occasional instance of blatant dishonesty. A little while ago when I was still doing my old job, some of us were having a beer and a chat at the end of the week. One of the young women in the office (I'll call her Ann - all names have been changed to protect the guilty) was really pleased with herself for getting away with pushing a $100 chair through the checkout at a retail store and not being either charged for it or detected.

The next week, Ann was asked to organise for some pizzas to be delivered to the office (it was a birthday celebration, I think). She was given money from petty cash to pay the pizza delivery person. The young kid who delivered the pizzas stuffed up the change and gave her back a $50 note instead of a tenner. As it happened, one of her colleagues noticed the fifty in the change and commented on it within my earshot. I asked Ann what had happened and she explained. She was quite pleased about the fact that we had made a small profit on the deal. Pleased, that is, until I told her to get in her car and take the money to the pizza shop. She was ready to argue with me until I explained that the kid who had made the delivery would almost certainly be compelled to make up the shortfall from his own pocket. Even then she handled the whole thing with as little good grace as possible.

(I have my doubts that we would have been made aware of the stuff-up if Ann's colleague hadn't spotted the fifty in the change).

[ozwinner]

Ive always believed the only thing we actual own on this planet, is our integrety.
Everthing else is just borrowed for a while.

Al :o

[Gingermick]

Ive always believed the only thing we actual own on this planet, is our integrety.
Everthing else is just borrowed for a while.

Al :o

How very zen of you oz, I Had a bad accident 4 years ago and woke up honourable. ;)

[DanP]

Not only is it dishonest to not bring it to their attention, it's theft.

Dan

[doug the slug]

Ive always believed the only thing we actual own on this planet, is our integrety.
Everthing else is just borrowed for a while.

Al :o

THat is so true Al

I have lived in this town for 8.5 years now and i have run my own business here for over seven years, been involved in quite a few community organisations at quite high levels. I pride myself on being able to walk down the street with my head held high and dont need to cross the road no matter who i see coming the other way!!! Of course there are quite a few who cant look me in the eye because of the way they have chosen to live their lives, but that is their problem.

Rowan, do what you wish about the extra item, but remember you have to look youself in the eye in the bathroom mirror every morning

[Cliff Rogers]

...the wash must have made it thicker as it felt thicker than normal....and told him not to wash his money again and I gave him one $50 back......

You sure it was a real one? It might have been freshly printed. :rolleyes:

[ozwinner]

It was real Cliff.

He had a wallet full of them.
Turns out he was a tradie too, feeling the wrath of time on his bones.
Made me feel good about meself, even after 3 weeks with a crook back.

Al :o

[Cliff Rogers]

I your case Al, it was $50 worth of good advertising.... that bloke will tell heaps more people than a $50 advert in a newspaper is worth.

Personally, I play it by ear, if it's worth the brownie points, I'll give it back, if it
balances out a bad experience, I don't.

[ozwinner]

I your case Al, it was $50 worth of good advertising.... that bloke will tell heaps more people than a $50 advert in a newspaper is worth.

Personally, I play it by ear, if it's worth the brownie points, I'll give it back, if it
balances out a bad experience, I don't.

True.
But I didnt do it for the brownie points.

Al :)

[Cliff Rogers]

True.
But I didnt do it for the brownie points.

Al :)

What colour where they then? :confused:

[doug the slug]

I your case Al, it was $50 worth of good advertising.... that bloke will tell heaps more people than a $50 advert in a newspaper is worth.

Personally, I play it by ear, if it's worth the brownie points, I'll give it back, if it
balances out a bad experience, I don't.

Cliff, you are contradicting yourself in the one post. of course he is going to tell more people than a $50 advert in the newspaper is worth (by the way, where do you get the cheap advertising). they all will, its always worth it, not for brownie points but for your own sense of worth. if it balances out a bad experience for you by keeping it you are giving someone else a bad experience and i bet that they will tell 10 times more people that you did the wrong thing than the bloke you do the right thing by. what goes around comes around, sometimes it takes a while but it happens

[Caliban]

[QUOTE=Driver]Well done, Al. I'm going to send you a greenie if the BB will let me.

QUOTE]
Col, fear not,ey ev doan eet fur ewe. :D

[ozwinner]

[QUOTE=Driver]Well done, Al. I'm going to send you a greenie if the BB will let me.

QUOTE]
Col, fear not,ey ev doan eet fur ewe. :D

Your mock French is crap, but thanks anywhoo.

Al :D

[Grunt]

I care alot about my integrity so I lied in the poll.

[Caliban]

Al.
Мой франчуз принадлежит в вашем магазине? Мой русский очень более лучше. Olga, водочка, perestroika

[Stu in Tokyo]

Al.
Мой франчуз принадлежит в вашем магазине? Мой русский очень более лучше. Olga, водочка, perestroika
Это очень поистине!:D

I run my own business in Japan, we deal with this kind of thing all the time.

I bet you guys have this image of the avg Japanese person being very honest and nice, etc. Well we have a problem with the MIL, she don't see as well as she used to , and she often mistakes a 10,000 yen bill for a 5,000 yen bill ($100 for a $50).

When she give back the wrong change, TOO much change, maybe one in 10 people says something, most just leave in a hurry, when she give back too little change, of course EVERYONE complains in an instant :D

I deal with wholesalers etc, and on a numbe of occasions they have sent me goods without charging me on the invoice, I always make the call and tell them to add it to the next invoice.

I too can look myself in the eye and not flinch, the only way to live you life, IMHO.

Cheers!

[Sir Stinkalot]

I was thinking about buying two large drill bits on Ebay .... I only bought one in the end .... the seller sent both by mistake. I let him know and then he told me just to keep it. Win Win.

Purchased some finishing products from the WWS last year. Vendor put the decimal point in the wrong spot, in my favour. When I check my statement I let the vendor know who adjusted the price ..... still in my favour. Imagine if I ripped of the great man :eek: .

[doug the slug]

When I check my statement I let the vendor know who adjusted the price ..... still in my favour. Imagine if I ripped of the great man :eek: .

like i said earlier, what goes around comes aroundhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Clinton1]

I don't want to be a thief, even if I am the only one who knows.

[E. maculata]

like i said earlier, what goes around comes around
Too true, too true
2 christmases' ago SWMBO told me she had ordered a large swing set off a large dept store(let us call them Big X).A few days later I was at home by myself Big X rang up and said it was there, please pick it up, so I drove down to pick it up, went to the loading dock & rang bell , polite young Bloke came out with item with our name plastered all over. Leaving the carpark I rang the SWMBO mobile only to be told she had picked it up a couple of hours earlier, did a 180 went back to the dock got same young Bloke and gave it back.
Upshot he's working in our industry now and is one of my second year apprentices and yes he does remember, he reminded me during the induction we had already met.

[Caliban]

So Bruce, because you were honest, he got the sack from Big X and now works for you? Perhaps he told someone and they didn't approve of him getting out of it so easily? Maybe it was good Karma for you (or him?)

[E. maculata]

Yep, Jim "Karma" or something like it is one of my firm beliefs, things coming back to bite you on the ares is a reality in my world.

[JDarvall]

like i said earlier, what goes around comes aroundhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

Sorry doug, Thats BS to me. :D :D

That impleys that if your good then something good will happen in return. True enough I think with people as long as the person whose been given a good turn knows about it and people treat you well becuase,,,,your a 'nice' guy now.
But as far as some kind of cosmic or godly connection that ensures you recieve a good unrelated omen in return for a good act from you ....and visa versa.....BS. IMO. That sh*t will still happen anyway. I mean how many trully good people throughout history have recieved such horrible lives and deaths even though they were complete saints from the outset. eh ? ....

I'll always be honest, but not because I'm just born that way. :D I'll be honest, because......
- I'm sh*t scared of getting caught even though I know the odds of getting caught in the first place are probably a million to one.
- Because its been programmed into me heavily from birth
- Because I like that 'pat on the back' like response from someone who I've just helped out (even if the blokes whispering 'mug' as he walks away :rolleyes: ).....nice warm feeling ant it. Bet even the crooks do good deeds for that feeling.

[doug the slug]

Sorry doug, Thats BS to me. :D :D

That impleys that if your good then something good will happen in return. True enough I think with people as long as the person whose been given a good turn knows about it and people treat you well becuase,,,,your a 'nice' guy now.
.

well that would be right in an ideal universe, but very very often the good that comes back isnt even related to the good you do. and heres the big secret - neither is the bad that comes back when you $hit on someone. when someone does the wrong thing by me i let it go generally because i have faith that somewhere somehow someway, they will cop it and i wont even have to lift a finger for it to happen. it can take years but it all evens out in the end

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I honestly wouldn't think about it. Literally.

As a rule I don't get things delivered so I rarely have to check; items I do buy are checked out thoroughly before paying. (You can teach an old dog new tricks. :D ) 'Cos I hate ****-farting around, when I go shopping I buy LOTS of items, keeping a running total in my head and so long as I'm not charged an amount that's obviously at odds I'm not normally concerned. There are exceptions, of course.

So, it's only when I buy two and they only charge me for 1 that this situation would pop up; unless I checks the receipts I wouldn't pick it up.

My integrity is fine. How's yours?

[oges]

Depends on the value of the item I guess, I subscribed to a magazine in the US and after 2 months of not getting the first magazine I let them know and another was sent. Within two weeks I had then received both copies.

Emailed the magazine and was agreed that I didnt need to post it back as expense was not worth doing so.

[Cliff Rogers]

Cliff, you are contradicting yourself in the one post......

First spelling Nazis, now Fork'n grammar grouches, you know what I meant.:rolleyes:



..... if it balances out a bad experience for you by keeping it you are giving someone else a bad experience and i bet that they will tell 10 times more people that you did the wrong thing than the bloke you do the right thing by. what goes around comes around, sometimes it takes a while but it happens

You missed my point..... I said "I play it by ear, if it's worth the brownie points, I'll give it back, if it balances out a bad experience, I don't."

Long boring story to make the point clearer so turn off if you are not interested...
About 10 years ago I had a bloke skip the country owing me $142. He left his company insolvent so I didn't get anything back from the receivers. (I got off lightly, one of his employees was out of pocket $3.5K)
Just after his 7 years in exile, he popped up again in a different city in a similar business. This time he was just down the street from me, about 5 houses away on the other side. One day a carton of wine worth $166 addressed to him was left at my door.... I have a long memory, no one ever came looking for the wine, if they had, I would have given it back. :D

As Doug says, "what goes around comes around, sometimes it takes a while but it happens" :D

PS. The turkey went broke again, this time he didn't get out of the country.

[Wood Borer]

I have been in the situations where I have alerted the staff the change has been incorrect or the number of items charged for has been incorrect. After telling them, they have refused to listen and I have walked out with the additional change or goods. Was that being honest? I felt uncomfortable about but what else could I do? Some smarty assuming I was trying to rip them off when I was trying to assist them.

At Bunnings one day I was purchasing sandpaper (about 20m off a roll) and they were going to charge me for only the width of the roll. :rolleyes: I insisted on paying for the 20m rather than just the width! Yes, they can afford it but conscience can't.

[doug the slug]

About 10 years ago I had a bloke skip the country owing me $142. He left his company insolvent so I didn't get anything back from the receivers. (I got off lightly, one of his employees was out of pocket $3.5K)
Just after his 7 years in exile, he popped up again in a different city in a similar business. This time he was just down the street from me, about 5 houses away on the other side. One day a carton of wine worth $166 addressed to him was left at my door.... I have a long memory, no one ever came looking for the wine, if they had, I would have given it back. :D .

thats fully understandable cliff, i would have done the same. but from you r previous post, balancing out a wrong could have meant 'well i lost $100 yesterday to fred so if i keep this $100 overpayment from jack that will fix it. now i understand your point, and he still owes you interest!!!! what goes around......

[echnidna]

I didnt read Cliff's statement that way, I understood what he meant :eek: :eek:

[pau1]

A mate and I went to pick up a go-kart that we had purchased in country vic. On the way back we filled up the car at servo, it has both gas and petrol. He filled the gas and I filled the petrol. We went in to pay, told the woman at the desk the pump number and that we had both gas and petrol. She told us the amount and it was only for the gas. We said that she might want to check the total as we had both gas and petrol. She said yes thats correct, we said are you sure? The attendant got really shirty with us and started to argue with us that she had it right and basically how dare we insinuate that she may be wrong. We gave up arguing, paid for our gas and walked out with a free tank of petrol. It's not like we didn't try and do the right thing, she just wouldn't listen and it wasn't worth the agravation in argueing any further. I don't feel like I stole the petrol, she just refused to let me pay for it. :confused:

[DanP]

In that case you've made the effort. No offence has been committed.

[Termite]

Just had my integrity tested. The boss sacked a worker about 4 weeks ago, should have done it 2 years ago. This bloke really deserved to go, but now he has hit the boss with unfair dismissal.
My boss has just asked me to lie in a stat dec. to get himself out of trouble. He was promptly told where to shove his stat dec.

[E. maculata]

Way to hold your head high Termite, that's a fair dinkum test in my books. Sounds like the other 2 in the drama need refreshers in what you could teach them about honesty in all forms :) .

[DanP]

The boss sacked a worker about 4 weeks ago, should have done it 2 years ago. This bloke really deserved to go, but now he has hit the boss with unfair dismissal.

Surely if the bloke was that bad, the boss wouldn't have any problems with the claim that he was unfairly dismissed and therefore wouldn't need you to lie.

Dan

[Termite]

Dan, the problem is the Boss didn't follow the correct rules for dismissing a worker, regardless of whether he deserved it or not. Apparently the rules must be obeyed.

[DanP]

If has come to a point where you can't sack someone who is useless then the system needs to be looked at.

Dan

[Termite]

If has come to a point where you can't sack someone who is useless then the system needs to be looked at.

Dan
It is, thats why the unions are in an uproar.

[Sturdee]

Dan, the problem is the Boss didn't follow the correct rules for dismissing a worker, regardless of whether he deserved it or not. Apparently the rules must be obeyed.

So a worker who didn't do his work correctly gets sacked and then his boss who also didn't do his job correctly, by following the rules of proper dismissal, is asking you to lie to cover up his mistakes.

IMO the boss should also be sacked for his incompetence and the worker should rightly get what he is entitled to.

IMO it is not the system that is necessarily wrong but a lot of bosses / employers are the problem. And I've met a few :mad: who first incorrectly sack someone and then come and ask how they should have done it when it's too late.


Peter.

[Termite]

[QUOTE=Sturdee]IMO the boss should also be sacked for his incompetence /QUOTE]
Oh if you only knew the full story of incompetence, here it is , long story short.
60 year old company, Daddy dies, Mummy puts son in charge 3 1/2 years ago, son thinks he has a new piggy bank, runs company into ground (in spite of me screaming at him for years), now in process of trying to sell off as much as he can of the company, I'm sitting here drawing my salary just to keep up appearances, at 61 this looks like being my last job.
And yes, I do have the sh!ts with him. :mad: http://www.ubeaut.biz/flamer.gif

[Sturdee]

The story sounds familiar. Heard a few like that.

All you can do is keep plugging away or should that be chewing away. :D


Peter.

[HavinaGo]

On the "getting more than you paid for" topic: I'd like to think I'd do 4, reality is that the little voice takes time to realise what is going on, so 3 is the one. Sometimes that is harder. Especially like the petrol case where one points out that maybe the person should check ... Oh well I'll keep trying.

I've had mixed reactions from "you are mad" to "thanks for telling me .. keep it". I always feel better in the long run.

On the employment thing .. gotta say that working for a big company, the approach to negotiations on conditions is : "we encourage you to take a negotiated contract. Here it is. No term may be changed. Sign now". Mr Howard's proposals don't sit comfortably.

I guess I'll have to get to the next stage of personal development where I am comfortable with change. At my current stage, it is OK if I have some say. It is NOT ok if it is outside my control.

There that should keep the thread off topic. :D

[Grunt]

I'm an employer. We had to sack someone last year. Just fricken lazy.
For $56 he put in a claim to the IR Commission for wrongfull dismissal.
It doesn't matter what hoops you go through, the employer is always in the wrong. It ended up costing us about $5k with a small payout to the employee and a few grand to an IR Relations company for representation. We also had to say we didn't sack the bloke but made him redundant so he could get another job. It turns out he'd been through this before. He said he had been made redundant from his last employer. He's got another job and probably ripping off that one now.

We thought we were a caring and sharing kind of employer but this has turned me a little more bitter and twisted.

I don't know if we should drop the wrongfull dismissal stuff because there are a lot of asrehole employers out there. Removing them isn't going to make me hire anyone either. I would like to see that they go hard on vexatious claims and maybe make it a little more difficult to apply.

[Cliff Rogers]

I'm with you on that one Grunt.

Everyone I put on now is presented with 2 copies of an offer.
They sign both, I sign both & we keep a copy each.
It says that they are on a 3 months trial period to be reviewed on the pay day closest to the end of the trial period (dated inserted)
At that time they either get a new letter extending the trial with new expectations noted, or a letter offering them fulltime employment or they are terminated.

That has worked best for me but I did have one lazy buga that did nothing for the last month of his trial period.... he got a fairly ordinary (strange) ref & if anyone rings me I tell them that it was 'hard to find anything for him to do.' :D

[DanP]

Put simply, IMO if you are a lazy prick or otherwise useless, the boss should be able to sack you. Why should you get any sort of entitlements for being lazy.

Dan

[The Hornet]

My opinion is, if it is a multi national company, then stuff them, they can cop it, but if its a small operator, then i return the extra item, or extra change.
I have been in both situations, where a large company i bought an item from wouldn't refund my money, even though they were in the wrong, legally too. I have also been on the recieving end of about a $50 windfall at a local shop, and i went back to the shop an hr later, and let them know what happened, as soon as i realised it.

[doug the slug]

I am an employer too. but these days i dont need a lot of time from an employee. before the government introduced GST, there was plenty of work though and i had two blokes working vor me for about 30 to 40 hours a week. even at that level of employment, i would only ever employ them as casuals. no way would i make them full or part-time cos then you have all the hassles of industrial relations when you want to get rid of them if anything goes wrong. casuals you just dont phone to call them in. this was bad for the workers because they couldnt claim continuity of employment and get home loans or anything, but a small business like mine couldnt take the risk of giving them fulltime status. i therefore believe that when the wrongful dismissal laws are removed theres going to be a hell of a lot of workers who will be better off because they will be given full time status, and the resultant benefits. as a n employer i would have been better off too, not having to pay casual loading, but then the workers would have had holiday and sick pay entitlements too. all in all i think the majority of workers will not be worse off, and the ones that are worse off will be mainly the lazy, useless and otherwise non-productive

[E. maculata]

G'day fella's, interesting discussion for me as I will be following the reality of
these changes, especially given that even the subtle tweaks that have been enacted since '96 have changed some things drastically for thousands of people, but I shall keep my opinions to myself on them(don't really feel like starting another ideaological argument tonite). And are you all sure that the Current(soon to be previous) unfair dismissal laws in reality apply to yourself, possibly employers with less than 20 employees? or is it just a furphy perpetuated by industrial representatives and others whom stand to gain monetary advantage in such a situation.
(subtle hint I've been to the IRC on more than one occasion to bear witness in such cases & you should see the glee in eyes when certain "facts" of law are exposed as heresy) :rolleyes:

[Grunt]

We have less that 20 employees and it applied to us.

[Sturdee]

i had two blokes working vor me for about 30 to 40 hours a week. even at that level of employment, i would only ever employ them as casuals. no way would i make them full or part-time cos then you have all the hassles of industrial relations when you want to get rid of them if anything goes wrong.


Sorry to disappoint you Doug, but under all awards ( which then applied to all workers before AWA's ) casuals could only be employed for up to 20 hours a week, over 20 hours a week they were regular part time employees with all the provisions and protection to regular workers under the awards.

They were entitled to regular rostered hours, sickleave, holiday pay, public holidays, superannuation, notice pay and covered for wrongfull dismassal.

That you paid them the " casual loading" only meant you paid them over award payments and you should have paid termination pay on the rate you paid, including the "casual loading".

If it was in Vic and they went to the Department they would not only recover it for them they would automatically prosecute you unless you could convince them ity was an isolated error.

So far you are lucky that your workers did not know their rights but they still have a few years to claim their back pay. It really should be mandatory for new employers to learn the laws relating to employing workers, including their dismissal, so that they know their obligations.

Peter.

[doug the slug]

this is queensland peter its different up here, either tha t or i need a new accountant

[Driver]

Doug

Peter's right - he's talking about the federal system. It applied in all states before AWAs. You need a new accountant.

Incidentally, what made you think an accountant would be an expert in IR law?

[echnidna]

this is queensland peter its different up here,

yer not kidding :D :D :D

[Sturdee]

this is queensland peter its different up here, either tha t or i need a new accountant

I think you may need a new Accountant.

I think you'll find that all awards, in respect of these specific details, are virtually identical with each other and with federal awards. State awards were usually copied verbatum from decision of the Arbitration Commission.

These decisions were usually incorporated 3 to 6 month later as it took some time before the State bodies had time to do it. It may be that Queesland is different but I doubt it.

The last place I worked full time I was responsible for the payroll etc of about 50 employees, half full time and the rest part time and casuals, who were employed under 5 different awards. Some awards were State and some Federal. In all pertinent aspects regarding conditions they were identical, the only difference was in the descriptions and rates of pay for the various entitlements.

Thus to simplefy things we paid the highest applicable rate for the entitlements but it was essential that we strictly kept the hours worked to the award classifications.

Like I said it is essential that employers learn the laws relating to employing workers, including their dismissal, so that they know their obligations which are in fact law and failure to comply, at least in Vic if brought to the attention of the Department, will be prosecuted as a matter of course.


Peter.

[doug the slug]

Like I said it is essential that employers learn the laws relating to employing workers, including their dismissal,

yes peter and i remember the day it was changed, if you scroll up you will find that i was talking about pre-GST days, and that was 2000. teh push for permanent employment status for long-term casuals was after thenhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Sturdee]

.....you will find that i was talking about pre-GST days, and that was 2000. the push for permanent employment status for long-term casuals was after thenhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

Doug, not to belabour the issue but so am I. The period I was referring to was between 1986 and 1997. I have had the privelige of not having to work fulltime since. :D

I agree with the push for permanent status for casuals, but the point I was making is, because of the weekly hours they worked for you,you were not employing casuals because they exceeded the hours allowed to be worked by the award for casuals. Thus they in fact became permanent part time employees notwithstanding that neither you nor those employees were even aware of it.

Therefore award conditions applied to them. In fact we had to pay pro-rata LSL when a casual, never having worked more than 1 shift a week for 11 years, left our employ.


Peter.