boat made of elm?

[beegeecee]

Hi, I have a number of elm trees I'm planning to process with a chainsaw mill. Would it be a good timber to make my first boat from and if so what would be the best finish for it. I read once of coating a boat in pitch inside and out but am wondering what type of pitch that might be. I suppose a dinghy would be a good first boat to make but would probably want to make a bigger one some time also.

[Wild Dingo]

Well... Elm eh?... mmmm.... Elm you say?... mmmm nope never heard of anyone ANYWHERE building a boat out of the stuff... nope try as I might I cant

But then you could be the first!! Be an individual and go for it... mmmm then again if after soooooooooooooo many years of people around the globe building boats and sooooooooooo many designers plans being available none to my knowledge which include Elm in their list of materials or construction plans you would have to wonder why?... mmmm could be that its maybe not so good as a boatbuilding timber? could it be that its rot resistance is almost zero? I dont know here mate but the fact that Ive not seen any plans from the designers Ive gotten plans from here in Aussie in England in Canada or in the USA Germany or France... Im sorta taking the hint that well Elm really isnt thought of as a boat building timber

Anyways!! dont let me stop you!! :cool: I think outside the box as much if not more than anyone I know so go for broke mate!! :D

As for coating your boat inside and out with "pitch" Im thinking here pitch as in tar right? so... given that you will need whats called emulsion its that black sticky ***** the roadworkers use when they patch the road... you know you see them out there one fella will either have a bucket of the slop or a hose that sprays it onto the pothole or edge of the road while another fella has a shovel of blue metal to toss ontop of it then another fella has a whacker packer to pack it down while another fella stands guard at one end smoking endless smokes and another fella stands up the other end smoking endless smokes while another two blokes stand watching the fellas working while another couple of bods are sitting in the truck yarnin... you know them fellas? well you could stop with a bucket and ask them if they would spare you a bucket load...

Now thats not such a far fetched idea you know... I mean those fellas wouldnt mind a bit giving you a bucket load of that goop and it would give them something to yarn about for a day or two maybe a week or so... but you know it wouldnt be too bad on a boat either for just that purpose... why? cause tits waterproof!!! thats why! and tits as sticky as ***** and would be a great thing I reckon how in heck you would get it to go off is another thing entirely... but then if your only going to slather the boat with the goop it would be making a nice waterproof membrane over it which really istn that far fetched either come to think on it

Remember those Viking blokes? well seems from my reading on them fellas that they used to use pitch on their boats too... and by gar they travelled far and wide did those fellas!! :cool: mmmm but I think they used pine pitch... mmm wonder what that is? could be the pine glue stuff that comes outta the tree is my guess... but then again Ive heard that the Irish used pitch on their Coricles and then theres those weird skirt wearin fellas from Scotland who also used pitch in their wee boats...

So I reckon go for broke mate!!! Use the elm and slather the byjeehazus outta it inside and out with emulsion and go sailin!! :cool:

As for what you would finish it with... well since your gonna use emulsion and that stuffs black as the ace of spades Id suggest you finish it with

Emulsion?? :rolleyes:

Now after all this if you reckon Im havin a go at yer here... just think on this... Im the dopey buggar that built a canoe out of TUART!!! :eek: well it was the only wood I had at the time and I did have shiteloads of the stuff and well I wanted a canoe and dahmnitall I needed a new canoe... and well it didnt float to well and I did pull it apart cause it leaked like a friggin sieve and well I aaaaaaaahhhh buggar it!! I did build one out of one of the heaviest timber here in West Aussie so shoot me :rolleyes: :p

Ohhh and Im pretty tempted just now to build me anothery this time out of Kapur!! aahhh what a wonderous wood that appears to be... yeah yeah so its hard as hell... yeah yeah so its heavy as buggary... mmmm maybe the Sepitur would be bedda??... or maybe even the Jarrah??? nah the Maranti Im thinkin that I may just want to be able to lift the friggin thing!! :D

Cheers!! :cool:

[Daddles]

Shane, sawdust should be disposed of thoughtfully, not put in your pipe and smoked :eek:

Richard
hadn't realised how much I missed wading through your posts :D

[Daddles]

Beegeecee - use the elm for the softwood parts of an established design, use marine ply for the rest, invest in boat building epoxy (eg West) and enamel, leave the pitch to road builders and fruitcakes. :D

Note - I've never seen elm suggested for boats so there are probably good reasons why it's not, but if you're getting it for the right price, and protect it (with poxy and paint), hah, see how it goes, just don't expect the boat to last till the next millenium. Mind you, it might be okay too, I don't know.

Cheers
Richard

[CHJ]

I was always led to believe that Elm (English Elm anyway) deteriorates rapidly if constantly alternated between wet and dry.



It does however last almost indefinitely if continually submerged, it is used for the sills on canal lock gates for instance, but never the gates themselves.

[Wild Dingo]

I was always led to believe that Elm (English Elm anyway) deteriorates rapidly if constantly alternated between wet and dry.



It does however last almost indefinitely if continually submerged, it is used for the sills on canal lock gates for instance, but never the gates themselves.



Well there you go!! Learn something every day... so now if we take this wee snippet of info an transtrapalate that to boats what part of a boat is always immersed? YES!!! your right go to the top of the class it is in fact... the keel... so now you can go ballistic and cut that sucker down and make sure its the right size for your boats keel and bobs yer uncle! :cool:

mmmm you were going to build a ruddy great sailboat werent you?

Actually having got an Brits attention... yes yes hard as heck I know but seems I have ones right now... so a question if I may our friend from the little place up there... what timber do they use on those canal boats?

Awhile back I thought of building one and hooning around Mandurahs river system in it but couldnt find a whole lot of actual building info on them... Oh I found info on them no worries but just not the actual building in wood of them steel seems the way many people are going from my reading

Anyway before I digress in a major way... do you have any idea what sorta wood is used in their construction?
Thanks

[CHJ]

Actually having got an Brits attention... yes yes hard as heck I know but seems I have ones right now... so a question if I may our friend from the little place up there... what timber do they use on those canal boats?

Thanks

Well Shane if we oldies need such info. We start off with a Google (http://www.google.co.uk/) which turns up something like this for example for a narrow gauge version. (http://www.peakbusiness.co.uk/canalpages/page3.html)

No doubt there are details of timber construction somewhere for older versions of these 70ft. 30ton carriers and the larger canal system boats.

[beegeecee]

Thanks for the advice all. It sounds right. The elm probably would be good for certain parts. I remember reading in a woodworker magazine that it was good for water pumps at one stage so that would probably be always under water. I was reminded the other day of some good advice also about finding out whether something may or may not be is to try it. I've been thinking about trying out for the commonwealth or olympic games. In my mid 30s already but I was encouraged by Caleb in the bible who reckoned he was just as able to fight at 85 as he was at 45. And then there was Moses who still had his strength at 120 so it makes a difference to know that its possible. Thanks again. Boyd.

[CHJ]

Talking to someone who regularly scraped old barges by burning (before the days of pollution control) he immediately came up with this list from memory. Not definitive but a good guide.



Larch

Pitch Pine

Oak

Elm (Keels)



All liberally coated in Tar.

[CHJ]

OK so a would the description of the Construction of Wooden One (http://www.wcbs.org.uk/autoindex.htm?/boatbuilder.htm)satisfy you Shane?

[Daddles]

So now Beeceegee has gone from making a modest dinghy to building a thumping great big Thames houseboat. You lot are sad, sad, sad :D Darned interesting though, and thank you for not pointing out that I mistook elm for a softwood where it appears it isn't. Flamin' wood. I'm still flat out tellling the difference between plywood, chipboard and trees, let alone this elm, ash, kapur carryon.

Grrrr
RIchard
my morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet - don't think I'll start on the boat till it has :D

[Wild Dingo]

Chas mate your a bloody legend!! :cool:

Do you realise just how long Id been waitin for someone to whack something like that up? mmmm oh I had tried the great an mighty googly one even went to the great an wonderous mother of all things boat and nautical but all to no avail... as I said I found much info on steel ones and such and even Woodenboat mag had an article on them at one time.. but nothing seemed to go into the HOW of a wooden ones build

So thank you! :cool:

mmmm wonder if theyve got plans there?? mmm round ooh I reckon about 30 - 40ft would do the trick eh? ;)

I sorta take it this way Richard... the only time it really REALLY makes a difference is when your NOT using epoxy and fibreglass THEN you REALLY SERIOUSLY MUST know what your woods gonna do... you gotta know how its gonna react being immersed in salt/fresh water all the time/trailered lives in a shed you then need to know... but from what Im getting after 5 years of researching this is that if your going to be esentially building a wooden structure and slathering it with fibreglass and epoxy the need to know all that becomes rather irrelevent and its redundant since you are essentially giving the boat timbers a water proof membrane and so its resistance to rot in a water environment is not longer judged by the timber but rather the covering remaining intact and unpunctured since once its been compromised water ingress will then have a very rapid effect on the substrata of timber... meaning you will have to get that damned epoxy and fibreglass of real quick over the entire effected area so you can cut it out and replace repair the timber underneath

I think epoxy and fibreglass comes into its own with ply boats and strip planked boats of all sizes as it gives it an added strength and bond...

My present plan is to build a ply boat called a Valgerda by Atkins a Norwegian style boat 18ft 7in loa out of ply similar to Iain Oughtreds Elf design only bigger... while building 2 canoes from the Maranti... then the aim is a larger more comodious design... I was thinking very seriously of Murray Petersons 28ft Schooner Susan but her highness has now made it adamantly clear that Im not to purchase plans again until Im sure and have exhausted all free plan avenues... so presently Im looking at paying the small sum of Canadian funds to a designer up there for the study plans of a 130+ year old 30ft Norse boat named "Elly" I have had these plans before but they got washed so am trying to get them back again... the designer that drew the study plans drew them in such degree of detail that the boat can be built from the study plans alone, they are comparable to BB Crowninshields 1910 40ft schooner "Fame" or his 20ft Dark Harbor in the level of detail both of which (along with all my plans somewhere around $900+ worth) got washed and ended up just so much mush and sludge :( So I can understand her not wanting me to start buying the things again till Im a lot surer than I was

but whatever I build as a larger build it shall be of timber not ply and built in the old fashioned way with Jarrah planking payed seams an such... I simply like it that way ;)

[aussiecolector]

The first record of a boat being built about 4500 years ago discribed it being covered with pitch or tar inside and out. So if the idear is still floating around there must be some merit in it.

[Wild Dingo]

I tend to agree mate... although you are pretty much dictated by color choice... black or black sir? :D

[Daddles]

I tend to agree mate... although you are pretty much dictated by color choice... black or black sir? :D

Yes, it pays not to wear a white, cotton frock in a boat sealed with pitch, though it some cases, it's a case of not getting caught wearing a white, cotton frock in a boat sealed with pitch :D

Richard

[CHJ]

Chas mate your a bloody legend!! :cool:

Do you realise just how long Id been waitin for someone to whack something like that up? mmmm oh I had tried the great an mighty googly one even went to the great an wonderous mother of all things boat and nautical but all to no avail... as I said I found much info on steel ones and such and even Woodenboat mag had an article on them at one time.. but nothing seemed to go into the HOW of a wooden ones build

So thank you! :cool:

mmmm wonder if theyve got plans there?? mmm round ooh I reckon about 30 - 40ft would do the trick eh? ;)

...snip...

Try sending them an e-mail, they are all enthusiasts someone is sure to help.

[bitofascallywag]

my old barge was painted inside with pitch and as kids we used to get hidings off mum for playing in it,it was built around 40 year ago,i reckon its an old term for creosote maybe

[CHJ]

my old barge was painted inside with pitch and as kids we used to get hidings off mum for playing in it,it was built around 40 year ago,i reckon its an old term for creosote maybe

Pitch is obtained by distilling Tar or Turpentine. Semi liquid when hot but hard when cold. (Used to see it in the top of old dry cell batteries as sealant)
Creosote Oil as a dark brown liquid is distilled from Coal Tar, Used for wood treatment.
Creosote Oil a colourless oily fluid is distilled from Wood Tar, used as anti-septic.
Both now restricted in composition and use in the UK due to evidence of increased cancer risks from skin contact and exposure.

[bitofascallywag]

very nice looking bit of gear