VFD install summaries [Archive]

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BobL

3rd May 2017, 10:41 PM

A lot of members ask me about these so here they are all on one page.
Some of the photos are outdated but there's enough there to get an idea of what I have done

Case Study 1: Hercus 9A lathe
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ORIGIN: Obtained Free in 2010, converted in 2011. Original date of manufacture 1965-6

Starting point:
Motor 1/2HP, 3P, 415V, Y connected, 1440 RPM motor
Switchgear. On/off 3P switch, old school thermal cutout switch, reverse switch all removed

Final outcome (Original thread with pics are lost)
411674
Motor: Second hand (never used) 1HP 1440 rpm 3P Fasco motor - with Y-∆ conversion done in motor junction box
Old 5/8” motor pulley would not fit 24mm new motor shaft - replaced with new 24mm bore Al pulley
VFD: 2HP SAJ sensorless vector control.
Switchgear: dedicated, new NVR emergency cut off to VFD power in front of lathe, all other controls and safety handled by VFD
Frequency limit: 100Hz
I usually keep the belts in the 3rd top gear but still need to change belts positions for slow speed work

Comments: The SAJ senseless vector control provides more power/torque at speed less below 50Hx than a conventional V/F VFD. e.g. at below about 15Hz the VFD provides about double the power.
This is one of the simplest and best conversions in my shed.

Case study 2: 1HP Sherwood Drill press see http://www.woodworkforums.com/f155/vsding-dp-167663#post1622198-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DP purchased new in 2007 converted in 2013

Starting point:
Motor: 1HP SP 240V motor
Switchgear; single 240V emergency switch that also acted as as normal operating on/off switch

Final outcome
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=257633&stc=1
Motor: Leeson, second hand, high quality, 1440 rpm, 1.5HP, 3P - with Y-∆ conversion in motor junction box
Old 5/8” Motor pulley required boring out to fit 19mm motor pulley.
2HP Huanyang VFD mounted on custom bracket on LHS of drill head
Switchgear: Old emergency (NVR) switch retained as general on/off switch to VFD power plus emergency switch. all other controls and safety handled by VFD.
Remote reverse, switch, stop/start and pedal switch added, as well as remote speed dial (se white box in photo)

Comments. The Leeson motor is excellent and will spins to 150 Hz without any problems but I usual restrict the frequency to less than 120Hz.
I do change to lower gears for large metal bits and largest Forstners and hole saws.

Case Study 3: 1/2 HP Woodfast wood lathe further info here http://www.woodworkforums.com/f245/bobls-shed-fit-134670/22#post1602088-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Purchase new in 2008, converted in 2012.

Starting point:
Motor: 1/2 HP SP with 16 mm shaft
Switchgear; single 240V emergency switch that also acted as as normal operating on/off switch

Final outcome
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=251072&d=1358926169
Motor replaced with a used 1HP 3P 415V 1440 RPM Crompton Parkinson motor (from an old WoodFast lathe) - common point had to be brought out from deep inside motor - a very awkward conversion - one of the most difficult I have done.
New motor (old motor still in photo above) much larger than old motor and had to be located under lathe. Thus required a new longer belt
Old pulley did not have enough metal to be able to be bored out to 19mm shaft size of new motor. New stepped ribbed pulley turned up from scratch - a lot of work!
2HP Huanyang VFD mounted on 600 mm SHS mast above headstock
Switchgear: Old emergency NVR switch retained as general on/off switch to VFD power, extra hip activated emergency switch added to RHS front of lathe - just out of photo.
All other controls and safety handled by VFD. Remote reverse, switch, stop/start switch added, as well as remote speed control in white box on front of lathe.
VFD max frequency set to to 120 Hz
As I use this for spindle work I rarely need to change gears.
This conversion was a lot of work but is well worth it.

Case Study 4: 10” Atkins Pedestal grinder (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/atkins-grinder-193863)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Must be around 50 years old. Obtained free in 2014, was in very poor shape restored and repainted and converted in 2015)

Starting point:
Motor: 1HP 3P 1440 rpm Y connected, not possible to convert to ∆ in motor connection box.
Motor low down in base connecting to driving spindle via a long belt.
This grinder had two speed pulley to allow for wheel wear.
All old switchgear completely removed

Final outcome
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=345280&stc=1
Motor converted to ∆ relatively easily inside motor
2HP Huanyang VFD installed inside the pedestal and cooled with a 240V 6” fan.
VFD panel and controls mounted outside pedestal.
Dedicated new emergency NVR switch to cut off power to VFD installed, all other safety aspects handled by VFD.
Max frequency set to 70Hz.
Does not get a lot of use - plan to convert it into a Linisher.

Case Study 5: 150 x 1500 mm belt, 200 mm disc sander more info Linisher Score (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f155/linisher-score-183254)
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Obtained free in 2014 , was in poor shape, restored and converted in 2014,
Made in Italy and originally purchased from Hare and Forbes in the 1980s.

Starting point: Motor: 3HP 3P 2 speed (2950/1450 RPM), Dahlander ∆.Y connected, not possible to convert to ∆ in motor connection box.
Double ended motor shaft drives belt and disc direct
All old switchgear completely removed

Final outcome
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=311155&stc=1
Motor converted to ∆ - very tricky, could not retain two speed but this does not matter as speed changes handled by VFD
3HP Huanyang VFD mounted on 600 mm SHS mast above headstock

New on/off/emergency NVR switch to cut off power to VFD installed, all other safety and control aspects handled by VFD.
This machine could only be used with unusual sanding belt lengths, modified to take a standard 2m belt.
This is an excellent powerful machine and I use it a lot.
Frequency limited to 70Hz Most common speed is around 40Hz.

Case Study 5: 19” Carbatech BS 19" BS upgrade (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f27/19-bs-upgrade-195900)
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Purchased new by me in 2008, modified in 2015

Starting point:
Motor: 2HP 1440 RPM SP 2 speed, done by changing belt positions
Original motor starter box removed. keyed power and emergency switches retained.

Final outcome
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=350238&stc=1

Old motor swapped out for a "never used" 1440 RPM 3P 3HP Leroy Sommer motor with foot mount converted to flange mount.
This is a brilliant motor with an independent wired fan that runs @ twice the speed of the motor.
Existing 2 speed 19mm bore pulley did not have enough metal to be opened out to 28 mm so new single speed pulley custom made for this as the custom made disc brake attaches to the pulley.

4HP Huanyang VFD mounted on left hand side of BS - frequency limit is 80 Hz ~5500 fpm band speed.
Old keyed power switch used as on/off switch to supply power to VFD, emergency switch retained but easiest way to stop saw is by stomping on foot brake which turns off power to motor and stops band in <2 seconds.
Additional on/off switch and speed control on cabinet door above operator.

This machine works extremely well and I use a lot to cut timber and Aluminium.
I also have a small log sled for it.

Case Study 6: 1200 CFM squirrel cage blower Motor conversion - Where do I start? (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/motor-conversion-start-189221)
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Saved from a skip in 2014, modified in 2015, date stamped on motor is 1966

Starting point:
Motor: 1/4HP 3P 1440 RPM Compton Parkinson, wired in Y, no conversion possible in motor connections
All old switchgear removed,

Final outcome
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=329029&stc=1
Motor and blower restored and refurbished, squirrel cage blower needed rebalancing using small metal clips direct to blower fins.
Motor converted internally to ∆ relatively easily
Used 1HP VFD obtained from eBay ($85) with limited functionality compared to other VFDs but it works fine.
Frequency limited to 80Hz
No emergency switch on this machine - machine power just turns on at wall socket and all safety and control aspects handled by VFD.
Works extremely well as a general room ventilator, it’s quiet and efficient especially at low speeds e.g. 40Hz

Case study 7 : 2 identical 1HP 8” 2859 RPM GMF grinders http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/gmfs-vfd-196127?highlight=Hercus+VFD-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obtained free in 2014/15, probably date from the 1970’s?)

Starting point:
Motors are 1HP 3P wired as Y - no easy ∆ conversion possible and no connection box.
All old switchgear removed

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=353327&stc=1

Final outcome
Motors converted to ∆ internally - very tricky
These grinders share a 2HP Huanyang VFD mounted on 600 mm SHS mast above grinders.
A custom made interlocked cross over switching system prevents VFD disconnection from the motors while VFD is running.
Custom made emergency switch and speed control box located under VFD.

One grinder has a thin cut off wheel in a custom made mini table saw and a green wheel, the other has CBN and a scotchbrite wheels.
Speed limited to 70Hz.
This setup is excellent and I use it every day.

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I also have custom made electric motor HP measuring rig that can cope with motors up to 5HP.
It uses a 5HP Huanyang VFD mounted on 300 mm SHS mast above the rig,
I also gave 3 other VFDs and have converted a 4HP compressor and several other WW lathes to run on VFDs

bueller

3rd May 2017, 11:00 PM

Cheers for the summary mate! Just about to go down this path with my jointer and I'm excited to get it going. Passed on a ton of cheap machines in the past due to 3 phase.

tony_A

4th May 2017, 09:37 AM

BobL

4th May 2017, 09:18 PM

Thanks for taking the time to write this up Bob
Am also looking at heading down this path and for an electrical novice it is daunting. There appear to be at least a couple of brands of Chinese manufactured vfd's on ebay and knowing whether they will perform OK is a big ???? Nothing like getting feedback from others who have used them.
It appears that vfd's are getting smarter and smarter in terms of programability, 99% of which will be useless to me. Just need something that can do soft start, breaking and variable frequency and the cheap Chinese units appear more than capable of that.

90% of the functions and their capabilities are indeed of little value to woodworkers.
However it is possible to still get caught out because of what is missing and a few other things.
Here are some things to watch out for

Speed range
For some WW operations the VFD should have at least 150Hz operation. Most VFDs do this but some don't. One used VFD I have (the one on the blower) only has 0 - 99Hz capability - this is fine on the blower because 70Hz is more than enough to drive the air but it would probably not be enough for say a DP or a lathe.

Braking circuitry
All VFDs have some sort of deceleration capability but this is different to fast-emergency breaking. While most cheap VFDs have the fast braking software they usually have some of the braking hardware missing and this has to be added and expect to pay more for VFDs with all the built in braking circuitry. In addition, fast breaking requires an extra resistive load be added to the VFD.

Deceleration range
Many cheap VFDs on the market are usually built to drive CNC spindle motors with relatively small bits. Some have limited deceleration ranges and sometimes they don't even have a coasting stop.
The same VFD on the blower above does not have "coasting stop" and only has a deceleration time of between 1 and 3 seconds. That means you have to choose between 1 and 3 seconds to stop the motor.
This is OK on the blower because the squirrel cage impeller is lightweight and has a relatively low angular momentum and self brakes because the air slow it down.
However some loads (like an 8" grinding wheel or a large bowl on a lathe) may have too high an angular momentum to enable a cheap VFD without a brake to decelerate in even 3 seconds let alone in 1 second. About the slowest I can decelerate a grinder is 15 seconds. If you ask the VFD to decelerate the motors and it can't it will give up and register an ERROR and you will have to restart it. Repeatedly doing this can lead to VFD damage as I found out when the caps exploded on VFD running an 8" grinder. On my grinder and belt/disc sander setups I use coasting stop. The VFD just cut power to the motor and lets the motor and load coast to a stop. If the motor an load are still running and you hit start on the VFD the VFD will try to start the motor at zero RPM (i.e. it will try and stop the motor completely before accelerating again) which it doesn't like and can damage the VFD.

Acceleration.
Just like deceleration changes, high angular momentum loads may not be able to make any speed changes rapidly. On my belt sander and grinders I have to change speeds slowly - too fast and the VFD trips out. Some VFDs have a function that can be set to limit speed changes.

Using a larger VFD
The chances of a VFD tripping can be reduced by using a VFD with a higher power rating.
This is fine but you need to be aware that their factory settings will be for a comparable size motor. The issue is compounded by the fact that 3P motors usually come with ZERO built in protection (such as current supply limitation which prevents motors from overheating which is usually found built in on SP motors) and it is assumed that ant protection is provided by the sparky that connects up the motor on a machine. Thats why 3P motors on machines usually have an extra boxes of eletrickery attached to them. The box is usually a em starter and NVR switch plus a current limiter. The VFD is very good at protecting a 3P motor so these extra boxes are not necessary (in fact nothing should be between the VFD and the motor and they should be hard wired) PROVIDED the programming is done correctly

Lets say you have a 2HP motor and you drive it with a 5HP VFD. The factory setting for max current output on the 5HP VFD will be ~17A. If the load on the 2HP motor increases it will keep drawing more current up to 17A before the VFD does something about it by which time the motor will be cooked. This means you have to program the VFD for a lower current max setting which for a 2HP motor will be something like 8A plus a short term.time margin.

Factory settings
Don't believe what a manual says is a factory setting. I connected up a 2HP VFD to a 2HP motor with a supposed factory setting of the max frequency function of 50Hz. When I turned it on, the VFD tried to drive the motor to 400Hz. Fortunately the VFD sensed there was a problem and at about 200Hz dropped the power to the motor. Everything was OK i'm just using this as an example.

Playing around with a range of different VFDs
If you have hundreds of hours to spare, like reading chinglese manuals riddled with errors, and playing around with settings ad nauseum then no worries.
However what I found is having too many different VFDs gets really frustrating.
If you ask a forum question about programming a VFD that no one knows about don't expect them to spend hours reading a manual to find out what the problem might be.
If you want support it's probably better to settle on buying VFDs that forum members know something about.
On this forum its probably the Huanyang and Powtran VFDs.
A lot of the cheap chinese VFDs are clones of the HYs which is probably cloned from something else, but some that look like HY clones may have quite a different instruction set.

Using a larger motor
The other thing to know is between 0 and 50 Hz the max power of the motor is proportional to applied frequency.
So at 25Hz the max power is 1/2 the max power of the motor, at 12.5Hz the power is 1/4 etc.
To get around this it is common to upgrade the motor to one that is more powerful - this can lead to mechanical headaches like different mounting arrangements, shaft sizes, space etc.
For small motors doubling the size of the motor is usually Ok but just remember the motor and machine are usually matched by the manufacturer and putting a 3HP motor on a machine that had a 1HP motor could be asking for trouble. Instead of the motor just stalling under excessive load the 3HP motor could simply tear the machine apart. Some current limiting programming may be needed.

Speed range
This is a long topic and I will try to keep it brief.
Bearings in motors vary considerably but most are more than capable of handling at least the 50 - 60Hz jump and speeds up to about 4000 rpm.
However, bear in mind a 3000rpm motor at 50Hz running at 100Hz is now doing 6000rpm. most reasonable quality bearings can cope with this but maybe not on a cheap motor.
You can of course upgrade the bearings but I do wonder how long some cheap motors rotors will hold together at these speeds.
A two pole (3000 rpm) motor is usually limited to about 100Hz and unless well designed made, above this speed the frictional forces really start to drag on the motor and it loses power.
A 4 pole motor (1440 rpm) can usually be driven to 150 Hz (4320rpm) without suffering too much.

At the opposite end of the speed range 3P Motors also don't like being driven too slowly under load or they over heat - 3P motor fans usually turn at the same speed as the motor.
To be safe a motor should not be driven below about 15Hz for too long under load
I usually stick to no less than 20Hz for prolonged operation where the motor has at least 40% of its max power.
If you need to operate continuously a low speed installing a stand alone fan like a computer fan to cool the motor should do the job.

The speed range for a 2pole motor is thus 20 - 100 Hz or 5:1
For a 4 pole motor its ~20:150 or 7.5:1
So unless the motor is integral to a machine (like on my sander which has long shafts at each end for the belt drum and disc) its better to go for a 4 pole motor and leave it in a gear/belt position that covers the greatest range of speeds you use.

DPs and lathes are where you need the widest range of speeds are where and you may still not cover the range. Machines like Band saws, Grinders and Sanders only need a relatively small speed range (maybe X2).
I cannot think of a reason for speed changes on a planner/thicknesser, TS, SCMS or RAS although fast braking would be very handy.

With a vector control VFD you can sometimes double that range again but expect to pay more and watch out - some VFDs claim to be vector controlled but have missing circuitry.

An Australian supplier, Conon motor, is selling both Chinese motors and vfd's
http://stores.ebay.com.au/CONON-MOTOR/VFD-Variable-Frequency-Drive-/_i.html?_fsub=20490530018 . Has anyone had any experiences with this supplier or their product. Are there any features to look for when deciding between different makes of Chinese vfd? ie make of chip etc.Unless I get a bad rap on these units I will probably give one a try.
I only know about their motors and they seem to be OK for the price.
To comment on the VFD we'd need to see the manual

Considering the increasing interest in vfd's on this forum and the number of questions about them that are popping up in all sorts of threads I reckon they could do with a sub forum of their own. One thread on vfd'd that ends up with a lot of pages in it wont be an easily usable resource for folk like me starting out on their journey.

Lets see what develops. My impression is a lot of folks get very excited about VFDs when they first see them but that enthusiasm rapidly evaporates when the see the problems that arise is great than their skill and electrical knowledge.

However, once they find out about the problems they give up and either pay someone to do conversions for them or go back to changing belts. Over the last couple of years I've had about 2 dozen blokes mostly from men's shed look at my VFD setups. One group of shedders only had SP power in their shed and had been given a number of 3P machines and were interested in using them. Even though I've offered to help with further advice (I make it pretty clear they have to clear everything with their sparky) only one bloke has ever got back to me about VFDs and I don't believe any of them have installed a VFD yet. About a dozen blokes from the forums have contacted me and some of them have installed them

Anyway I hope this is useful.

My suggestion is not to just go out and buy VFD just to have a VFD but to assess what the specific machine you want to add the VFD to actually does and how you use it FIRST.
Then select the motor and VFD as a pair that you think will cover usage and ask questions on the forum about it.

One of the forum members with significant experience with VFDs (especially the HYs) is Joe Hovel and I'm sure he will chip in where he can.

tony_A

4th May 2017, 10:28 PM

Thanks again Bob. Really good information on some of the pitfalls associated with cheap vfd's. General information like this is hard to track down for someone who only has basic electrical knowledge. Very good point about sticking to brands others have experience with.
Am thinking about converting my lathe to variable speed. Replace the old 1 hp motor with 2 hp 3 phase and vfd. The current model of that lathe runs a 2 hp motor.
Have tried a search for powtran vfd and couldn't find an Australian seller. Not thinking of buying for a few months so will continue to read and learn.
Thanks
Tony

Lappa

4th May 2017, 11:14 PM

BobL

5th May 2017, 12:40 AM

Thanks Bob. As usual I have a question :D I'm exploring all possibilities and was wondering whether anyone had wired their motors so they had a male plug on a lead and the VDF wired with a female socket so it could be used like a "power point". That way you could plug individual machines into a single VFD when you wished to use it, if you get my drift.
Maybe not possible, but it was just a thought.

9 out of 10 people who start out with VFDs ask this , as its a good question but it's a bad idea for a number of reasons.

1) VFDs are usually programmed for a specific machine - if you move it to another machine it has to be reprogrammed to suit - i.e. a PITA.
More expensive VFDs have programmable memories so you can store and recall a set of parameters - you just better be certain you recalled and installed the right program or you would might cook the motor or have the machines throw things around a workshop because you chose an incorrect speed range.

2) Connecting and disconnecting a VFD from a motor
In most cases it is recommended by the manufacturer that VFDs be hardwired direct to a motor with no switch gear or plugs in between the VFD and the motor.
This is because if the VFD and motor are running and a disconnect is made there is a risk of damaging the VFD. I know some folks have disconnected them and I believe if the motor is not under load the risk is low, but under load will almost certain blow chips on the VFD.

3) VFDs are more like computers than switches. They take time to boot up and shut down - not long (3-5 seconds) but long enough to be an irritation. They also don't like to be constantly turned ON/OFF multiple times a day. This means when you turn a VFD on you usually leave it on until you leave the shed.

The use pattern goes something like this. Lets say I want to do some turning. I go down to the shed and start the lathe VFD - this does not start the lathe it just starts the lathe VFD. I then start the lathe using a remote VFD switch and do some turning - lathe is turned on/off multiple times using the remote but VFD itself stays on all the time. In between I might need do a bit of sharpening. I start the VFD on the Grinder station and then start the grinder and sharpen and go straight back to the lathe - grinder VFD also left on. Then I might need to use the BS for a few cuts etc. Only when I leave the shed are all the VFDs turned off

Can you see what a major PITA stopping a VFD, waiting for it to shut down, switching it across to another machine, waiting for it to boot - making sure the right program is installed, would be be? This doesn't work in practice.

I do have one VFD that is shared by two machines. This is a special case as these are identical grinders (so can use the same VFD program) and they are hardwired via an interlocked crossover switch.

3) Cheap VFDs are not really the sort of thing you can tote around and plonk down on a dusty bench amongst a bundle of other gear. Their cases are not that robust and their connections are not that well protected. They are really designed to be installed inside an insulated vented cabinet well away from dust, heat and shock etc. Woodworking is not too bad but I still install mine on steel masts so they are out of the way.

All that aside I do have a 7.5 HP Honeywell 3P-3P VFD that I use to test gear in workshops that already have 3P power.
The VFD is located inside a steel cabinet that is designed to tote around.
It has a standard 32A 3P input plug and an EU 3P outlet socket so its can only connect to an EU 3P Plugged gear.
To test the gear I disconnect the wiring at the motor and connect in at that point.
It has program recall capability and lots of nice features but even then I would definitely not like that to be my only VFD.
411715

BobL

5th May 2017, 01:47 AM

A scenario that could use one VFD to power several 3P machines.

Requirements/gotchas/assumptions
Motors are 240V 3P compatible
VFD is used primarily to generate 50Hz 3P from SP power.
Speed control is not required
Machines would need to have the same HP rating so same max current parameter etc is used by VFD for all machines
Soft start is applicable and could be used on all machines, same could apply to braking if available
All existing switch and protection gear would need to be stripped off machines
All machine motors hard wired back to a cross over switch (inside an interlocked box) that redirects power from the VFD to any one of the machines
All machines would need an independent emergency switch wired back to the VFD power input (not output)
A single remote control shoud be used to stop/start VFD output power while using a machine.
Ideally this remote should have an NVR in series with it over by the box with the cross over switch in it.

Operation would involve
a) shutting down VFD output power to machine in current use using remote
b) open door to box containing cross over switch - this opens a microswitch which also turns off VFD output power if operator forgot to do so at a) and also turns the NVR off.
c) switch cross over to desired machine position.
d) Shut box door, check state of remote (should be off) and activate the NVR
e) Operate machine via remote.
The micro switch on the box door, the NVR referred to above and the remote are all in series so all have to be in active for the machine to run

The reason for the NVR is if the remote is left in the "on" state then closing the door will immediately start the machine.
The NVR is a safety step to give the operator a chance to check the state of the remote before activating it

This is effectively what I have done for the two 3P grinders on my grinder stand.
This sounds very messy but it really does work .

Is it kosher? Read my signature.

dai sensei

5th May 2017, 09:24 AM

Thanks to Bob, I did an upgrade to my little wood fast installing a 1HP 3PH 240V motor, installed under the lathe in the cupboard, with a VSD mounted above. The photo of the motor & VFD is during my testing phase. The other photo is the final configuration of my mobile set-up I take to demos and Turnabouts

411730 411731

BobL

5th May 2017, 06:23 PM

For anyone that is interested to see how I tested the HP ratings of modified motors, I posted it all in a thread in the MW forum back in 2014.
VSD power tests - Page 6 (http://metalworkforums.com/f65/t182106-vsd-power-tests/page-6#post1786704)

The typical HP versus RPM graphs produced for a 1HP motor look like this.
What this shows is the max HP produced at different frequencies (Sorry legend is not labelled but it is the VFD frequency)
It shows the Max HP is approx proportional to frequency between 0 and 50Hz (1440 rpm) and the the Max HP slowly decreases after that.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=318867&stc=1

BobL

15th May 2017, 08:10 PM

VFD Basic review

Following a lead from Fetty in his shed thread I also purchased a Powtran PI91-2R2G1, 2.2kW VFD from eBay for $150 plus $20 shipping from Perth.
This sounds like a pretty good price to me and given its features it's more like a $300 VFD.
I have not seen any others of these 9000 series VFDs available at these prices so it might be an outdated model.
The powtran website (www.powtran.com (http://www.powtran.com)) is not connecting but the Powtran/Alibaba web page shows the 9000 series as a current model.

I've spent a half hour skimming the manual and connecting it to a 3HP motor and dabbling with the programming features so I thought I would write a short review about it. I will also (WIGRTI) run it though some tests on my HP rig and provide further details.

Here it is on the LHS out of the box with the front (screw less cover removed) alongside a 3kW/4HP Huanyang (HY) VFD so you can see how much bigger it is.
The HY Cost me
If anything its form factor is more like 5HP HY VFD.

412381

Here's view from underneath.

412362
You can see how the heatsink is larger than the 3kW HY

The fact that the cable feed through and grommet panel on the Powtran can be completely removed makes it MUCH easier to wire up.
On the HY I find I'm using haemostats to feed and hold the wires - also the connectors are large enough to use conventional (and safe) ring terminal crimp connectors whereas on the HY I have to sand the ring connectors down to fit in the smaller space provided.
412382
The other thing that is much nicer on the Powtran are the dedicated grommets for controls, Vin, Vout, and Brake. The HY has two grommets and its all pretty sloppy.

Several other useful features I've found are;
This is a true vector control VFD which is impressive for the price - the HY vector control VFD is at least $100 more.
It has all the circuitry for built in braking provided, unlike the older HY to which circuitry has to be added.
At slow speed control knob turning speeds the pulsed output knob enables very accurate setting of the frequency, and the faster you turn it the even faster the frequency changes.
It has all manner of password control and memories which might not be that helpful in a home shop but would be handy in a multi user workshop.

So all in all, a good unit by the look of it.
The manual is reasonable well written and in the short time I have been reading it I have not found any spelling/grammatical errors.
If it has one fault, it's the very large number of programmable commands that would make it almost intractable for most novices to get their head around.
I'm still getting my head around the "wobbulator" function.
It's about the same level of complexity as the 3p-3P 7.5HP Honeywell VFD but the manual for that has a handy set of programming examples and generic setups described in a separate manual.

Chris Parks

16th May 2017, 01:26 PM

Note it has two screen read outs, the keyboard is removable and can be remotely connected via a cat 5 cable, any programing can be down loaded into the keyboard and that keyboard installed into another VFD and uploaded into that VFD. It leaves a Huanyang for dead with its features and I have used both. There is also a mini series that is ideal for operating a drill press or similar. In all the years I have been using them the factory has never failed to answer any queries and I have never had an email not responded to, just an awesome company to work with and I have even had then ring me when necessary much to my surprise.

bueller

16th May 2017, 04:21 PM

This thread has been a great read so far. Mostly finished with the VFD work on my jointer, have it all wired and working the way I want so I just need to find the best mounting location for it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170516/7ef75e19df083c4f4f17b1234ea1e386.jpg

Running three wires from the control circuit on my HY series to the switchbox (12v, FWD, GND) - Green led is for VFD power and the toggle switch turns the motor on and off. Documentation isn't great but it's easy to set up if you can read the control circuit diagram. Can definitely see a Powtran in my future, the extra options look perfect for upgrading my lathe.

Bushmiller

16th May 2017, 08:40 PM

Thanks Bob for taking the time to explain all the intricacies. It is so handy to have the information in one place.

Regards
Paul

bueller

17th May 2017, 05:42 PM

Didn't like the look of the wires just poking out the rubber grommets on the Huanyang so I decided to replace them with some proper cable glands. Required drilling two extra holes in the bottom of the VFD but I think it was worth it from a safety point of view, looks a hell of a lot nicer too.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170517/40285ed46007bd6c4855a1b5c896a7a5.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170517/a2961f93ef2d646a66b8d2fb2e23741f.jpg

BobL

17th May 2017, 06:51 PM

Nice work on the glands Dan.

Its probably legal but I wouldn't use mains coloured coded wiring on a control circuit like you have done. It will be confusing enough to a sparky let alone a newbie and I would hate to think of the consequences.

Control circuits are low V (~10V) and very small currents some something like Cat5 cable is OK. Cat 5 also has multiple strands so a switch and a speed pot can be run through the same cable.

bueller

17th May 2017, 07:25 PM

Cheers yeah it was just a case of using what I had on hand as I ran out of hook up leads. I'll be replacing all the leads with new stuff when I install the motor so I'll make sure I use different colour leads next time.

Lappa

18th May 2017, 01:23 PM

Thanks for the run down on the VFD Bob. Couldn't help myself - just ordered one :D
I'm on the lookout for 3 phase gear so I reckon having a good VFD unit on hand, especially at that price, is a wise investment.

Cheers

NCArcher

18th May 2017, 07:05 PM

I like your thinking Peter.
Give me a yell if you need a hand.

RustyArc

18th May 2017, 07:58 PM

Thanks for the run down on the VFD Bob. Couldn't help myself - just ordered one

I think I'll do the same - looks to be a considerably nicer unit than the Huanyang. If you like your drives, it's worth keeping an eye on Ebay for VFDs as decent ones pop up once in a while - I got an unused 2.2kW ABB ACS310 for $100 about a year ago.

bueller

18th May 2017, 10:28 PM

gerrit

18th May 2017, 10:45 PM

Nice work. I have been out of this for a while. Used Mitsubishi and Siemens variable drives in the 90 ties. Mitsubishi was unbreakable and very fast and stable. Lasted for ten yrs 24/7 before I got out. This stuff has become a lot cheaper nowadays. Keep following your posts.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

BobL

18th May 2017, 10:58 PM

So say for instance I wanted to put a VFD on my lathe to allow digital speed control, with the Huanyang units I've seen it recommended to get a larger motor due to loss of power. If I went with a Powtran and had vector control would this still be necessary?

Correct.
The effectiveness of Vector control depends on how well the VFD and the motor pair together. Vector control requires that the VFD tune itself to the motors characteristics. The motor parameters have to be entered correctly and the Vector control parameters set and there is usually some sort of tune up program that ends the runs the motor up and down the speed range to optimise the VFDs interactions with the motor. It's not always as easy to setup as you first think but I haven't tried it on the Powtran yet.

Here is a graph showing torque virus s frequency for a 1HP motor.
You can see the motor at 5Hz under vector control is generating slightly more than double the torque compared to the non vector control.
At less than 5Hz it
At 17Hz it's a bit less than double, and this continues according to this pattern up to 50z where it will be the same.

412654

Of course you can always double the Hp of the motor AND use a vector control VFD :D
Thats what I did on my MW lathe.

bueller

18th May 2017, 11:17 PM

Okay cool yeah I'll probably stick with the original plan of a 2HP WEG and a Powtran as I know Vicmarc have the ribbed pulleys in that shaft size. Extra power always sounds good to me and the VL200 has a pretty decent sized work area on it so who knows what I'll be using it for in future.

fletty

20th May 2017, 08:35 PM

Case study 9: Secondhand 3 phase 3HP dust collector used on single phase supply.

This case study, and the guidance from NCArcher and Chris Parks, first introduced many of us to the Powtran VFD .... and the current excellent sourcing via eBay.
The background to this example is covered here...
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f245/flettys-shed-wip-retrospective-201068/48
..... and in post 779 in the same thread.
Basically I wanted to upgrade my dust collection system to a 3HP DC with (mostly) 150mm diameter duct work. I purchased a secondhand 3 phase 3HP DC but the special shaft extension precluded replacement of the 3 phase motor with a standard single phase motor. I purchased the recommended Powtran VFD and today the installation was completed. NCArcher arrived as planned this morning and, after a cuppa, work commenced.
My current 2HP (modified) DC was moved out of the new acoustic closet....

412792

The Powtran VFD and remote control were mounted on the outside wall...

412793

The new, much larger, 3HP unit was moved into the closet through the soundproof door and doorway made originally for the 2 HP unit. It was a tight squeeze but all went well.

412794

The location of the VFD and remote was driven by the shortest distance to the motor and to be clear of the soundproof door....

412795

I am am very pleased with the outcome. Because of the VFD, I now have a 3 HP DC system which is mostly ducted with 150mm diameter PVC. The DC is remotely operated although the gates are all manual. I haven't yet measured the internal and external noise levels but it is certainly no worse than the 2 HP and may even be quieter!
In earlier posts and threads, my measurement of air flow has been criticised however it is all I have and I firmly believe that at least the relativity of the measurements is valid. Here is my journey over the last 2 years expressed in relative flow rates measured with the same equipment and mostly at the same 100 mm outlet close to the DC itself.

412796
2HP DC, 100 mm ducting, flow measured at 167 cfm
2HP DC(modified), 150mm ducting but mostly 100mm connection to machines, flow measured at 535cfm
3HP DC, running at 50Hz via VFD, 150mm ducting, flow measured at 865cfm
3HP DC, running at 60Hz via VFD, 150mm ducting, flow measured at 999cfm (= off the scale!)
So far, the 'downsides' are not deal breakers. The DC and impellor really howled at 60Hz and the VFD does hum when energised but idle.
In more anecdotal terms, the 3HP DC when first turned on, drew sawdust and chips that had been left in all of the ducts and other nooks and crannies by the lower flow rates of the 2HP DC AND, when I checked the 150mm boom ..... it swallowed the safety glasses kept on a hook near the docking saw!

Many thanks to Tony, Chris and Bob for advice and support.

fletty

Chris Parks

20th May 2017, 08:44 PM

Are you running this at 60hz Alan? It looks to 50hz in the photo.

fletty

20th May 2017, 09:06 PM

Are you running this at 60hz Alan? It looks to 50hz in the photo.

Hi Chris, I'm operating at 50Hz but it's nice to know that I have more up my sleeve if needed.

BobL

20th May 2017, 09:29 PM

Thanks for posting this fletty.

One question.

412795

What's the box under the VFD - is that some kind of filter?

Your comment " VFD does hum when energised but idle" reminded me I had measured the idle SPLs for all my VFDs the other day and I should post this.

The measurements provided for each VFD is 1m from the VFD at head height above the floor.

Shed background was 47dBA
The 1HP VFD on the shed ventilator does not have a fan so it was the same as shed background.

The HYs produced the following SPLs
2HP VFDs on the WW lathe and DP, 55 and 56 dBA respectively
2HP VFD inside the pedestal grinder (includes a 100mm 250V fan), 54dBA
2HP VFD on the grinding station (includes a 250V relays that hums a bit) 61dBA.
4HP VFD on BS; 58 dBS, 4HP on BS 56 dBA

3HP Powtran 52 dBA
2HP SAJ VFD 53 dBA

Even without add ons like extra fans and relays, where the VFDs are located does affect their loudness and that's probably why they vary a bit.

So the least noisy is the Powtran but it does not sound the quietest and that's probably because the frequency it emits is slightly irritating.

If all the VFDs are on idle (and that can happen occasionally by the end of a shed session) the total power consumption is <75W so that's not going to break the bank.

If all the VFD's are on idle and I'm standing at workbench one in the metal work area the SPL is 59dBA, while in the WW area (a bit further away from machines) it's 56 dBA.

fletty

20th May 2017, 09:57 PM

The box under the VFD has a RF remote mounted on the cover and its operating relay inside the box. This little remote (30A rated, $26 ex China on eBay) has a working range of greater than 40 metres ..... as I found out this afternoon by standing under my neighbours nearest window turning the DC on and off to see if I could hear a difference?

BobL

20th May 2017, 10:26 PM

The box under the VFD has a RF remote mounted on the cover and its operating relay inside the box. This little remote (30A rated, $26 ex China on eBay)

Thanks for the info on this. Is it being used on the control side or the power supply side of the VFD?

OK, it looks like this one, although the price is $15?
AC 240V Far Distance High Power 30A Relay RF Wireless Remote Control Switch NEW | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC-240V-Far-Distance-High-Power-30A-Relay-RF-Wireless-Remote-Control-Switch-NEW/292122167391?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3D48d9ace7aa374665b179bfed53ae1a33%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D151766910825)

I've seen a few of those remotes on eBay but it looks like it could another chinese "we tell you what you want to hear". Some have a fine print line in the description that says the 30A is "peak current" and if you look closely at the power rating they are rated at 3000W (or 12.5A @240V) and even then I wonder what the safety margin is.

If it is being used on the power supply side, on a 3HP VFD with a soft start it should be Ok at 50Hz but I wonder what the current would be at 60Hz.

This is what this one says.
AC 240V Long Distance High Current 30A Relay RF Wireless Remote Control Switch | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC-240V-Long-Distance-High-Current-30A-Relay-RF-Wireless-Remote-Control-Switch/151766910825?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3D18cfe78dd64d4f91ac0ae76cc546b03c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D271968342893)

Although the relay is marked 30A 240VAC. The 30A is for the peak current of your load. The rated current of your load should less than 15A)

I also see there are some 50A (peak) with 30A continuous rating ($25) but they don't look like they would be anywhere near that rating
AC 220V 50A Relay RF Remote Switch Motor Water pump Machine Power | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC-220V-50A-Relay-RF-Remote-Switch-Motor-Water-pump-Machine-Power-/232337493000?hash=item361864cc08:g:7DIAAOSw-0xYT5Bz)
At first glance these 50A rated ones would seem safer for non-VFD users if they wanted to switch a 2 - 3HP DC remotely.
However reading on it also says - maximum continuous power rating is 3000W????

On the subject of 50 - 60Hz, what would be useful is a device that could sense sawdust in a system and automatically increase the VFD frequency when needed. A standard dust detector/sensor would be too sensitive but some sort of optical sensor might work.

Bohdan

20th May 2017, 11:21 PM

These devices use a solid state relay and when they say that is the max current they mean it!

These devices will self destruct if over loaded. I wouldn't run them on any motor which may have a higher starting current. In fact they even show a circuit for the use of a contactor when connected to a motor.

With a contactor they look like a real cheap option for a remote control.

fletty

20th May 2017, 11:34 PM

Thanks for the info on this. Is it being used on the control side or the power supply side of the VFD?

Some have a fine print line in the description that says the 30A is "peak current" and if you look closely at the power rating they are rated at 3000W (or 12.5A @240V) and even then I wonder what the safety margin is.

If it is being used on the power supply side, on a 3HP VFD with a soft start it should be Ok at 50Hz but I wonder what the current would be at 60Hz.

At first glance these 50A rated ones would seem safer for non-VFD users if they wanted to switch a 2 - 3HP DC remotely.
However reading on it also says - maximum continuous power rating is 3000W????

On the subject of 50 - 60Hz, what would be useful is a device that could sense sawdust in a system and automatically increase the VFD frequency when needed. A standard dust detector/sensor would be too sensitive but some sort of optical sensor might work.

I used the same remote on the power side of the 2HP DC for a year or so without any problems but, for the 3HP DC, we connected it on the control side to remove any issues with 'one on, one off' ....... and because I didn't have any piggy back plugs?
The highest in-rush current we observed was only 5.3A although that was on 50Hz and so I have been able to plug the 3HP DC into a 10A GPO.
In terms of the benefits the VFD has provided TO ME they seem now to rank in importance/value as;
1 Allowing the use of a 3phase device on a single phase circuit
2 Soft start, permitting connection to a 10A circuit
3 Cheaper than a replacement single phase motor
4 Operating features (especially speed change)

Re the operational use of speed change, I hadn't considered any automated protocols but I was thinking of running the DC on 60Hz at the end of each day and cycle through all of the gates/lines for a minute or so on each?
As suggested by NCA, I might also use some of the increased capacity to permit keeping a far gate slightly open to act as a sweeper during normal operation but I will have to check this because (at least) one of my 100 mm gated pipes howls like a pipe organ when open :music:

fletty

BobL

21st May 2017, 01:41 AM

Fair enough to use that switch on a the VFD control side if you already have it.

Re the operational use of speed change, I hadn't considered any automated protocols but I was thinking of running the DC on 60Hz at the end of each day and cycle through all of the gates/lines for a minute or so on each?

Venting at any time is a good idea but (especially if noise is an issue) there's usually little significant benefit in using increased speed for timed ventilation. 60Hz operation is only 20% more air flow and that can be achieved with the same effectiveness by just running the DC at the much quieter speed of 50Hz for just 20% longer in time than usual i.e. 1 minute and 12 seconds at 50Hz will pull the same air as 1 minute at 50 Hz.

The most useful time to have extra flow is while the dust is being made, and second most useful time is immediately after the dust has been made.

At these times every little bit of fine dust that escapes collection pervades the shed and exposes the operator. Most of that dust will probably have settled out by the time you come to vent the shed at the end of the say, and venting the shed won't pick up fine dust from surfaces anyway.

The finest hazardous dust has a half residence time of about 25 minutes, that means half of this dust will fall out of suspension in 25 minutes. Hence the idea of sweeper operating during dust making sounds like a better approach although its better still if the sweeper was at the point of the dust making activity, and runs for some time just after the dust making operation.

Chris Parks

21st May 2017, 11:30 AM

The last two installations I have been involved with have been controlled by a garage door opener which cost less than ten dollars, both installed by NCA utilising Powtran VFD's controlling Clearvues.

NCArcher

21st May 2017, 11:42 AM

Just so nobody loses any sleep, the remote control unit is switching a miniature relay. the contacts of the relay are connected to a digital input of the VFD which is programmed for 2 wire control. Push remote button, relay operates, contacts close, VFD starts. Push button again, relay releases, contacts open, VFD goes into soft stop.
For anyone else hooking up a VFD to a fan motor, I don't know if this is just Powtran or if it is a problem with other VFDs, the mechanics of a fan means that the VFD will get false feedback when the motor slows down prior to stopping. It will generate an error of overvoltage on the VFD. It's not a problem and just requires a second push of the stop button to clear the error. A second push of a remote button, however, will not work. The fix is to extend the deceleration time.
The default decel time on the Powtran is 10 secs. If you push it out to 25 secs no error will be generated.

BobL

21st May 2017, 01:35 PM

For anyone else hooking up a VFD to a fan motor, I don't know if this is just Powtran or if it is a problem with other VFDs, the mechanics of a fan means that the VFD will get false feedback when the motor slows down prior to stopping. It will generate an error of overvoltage on the VFD. It's not a problem and just requires a second push of the stop button to clear the error. A second push of a remote button, however, will not work. The fix is to extend the deceleration time. The default decel time on the Powtran is 10 secs. If you push it out to 25 secs no error will be generated.

Good point about bringing up the deceleration/acceleration times.

Over voltage errors (and possible eventual damage to the VFD) can result from decelerating loads with a high angular momentum (rotational inertia). The 1HP bench grinders I have running on VFDs are a good example. These generate an over voltage with even >30 s deceleration. However, the safest way to stop grinders is not to use any deceleration otherwise the grinding wheels may come loose. This is easiest set by a choice of deceleration or no deceleration (also known as a coasting stop) parameter.

On my 150 mm belt sander with the 300mm sanding disc, a bit like a fan, I have to use a 25s deceleration time otherwise it generates an over voltage error.

Some very cheap VFDs may not even have a coasting stop and a limited deceleration range. The $75 VFD that runs my 1/4HP squirrel cage ventilation fan has no coasting stop and a max deceleration time of 10s. Luckily this is a light weight fan (even though it pumps out 1200 CFM unrestricted flow) and 10 s is more than enough to cope without an over voltage error.

The same issue of rapid deceleration applies to some extent to lathes, especially if large chucks and/or workpieces are used and if rapid deceleration is required. Some kind of chuck lock can be used to improve safety. On my 1HP Woodfast I have the deceleration set to 3 seconds which is fine for the mostly spindle work I do. With larger pieces one tends to run at slower speeds anyway so it is sort of self limiting. On the MW lathe which uses bigger chucks I also use 3 seconds and it seems to be OK. I do have a chuck lock for it which I can use if I need to.

Acceleration times also need consideration - if a VFD or operator tries to accelerate a load too quickly it will also throw up an error. With the grinders and belt sander I have to set a slow than default manual speed change (via the external or built in pot) or the VFD will generate ad error.

The other thing to consider is whether on not to employ the reverse direction.
In a situation like a fan or a band saw it makes no sense and on the VFDs connected to these machines, reverse is removed as an operator option, like wise on grinders where a reverse is positively dangerous.

On a DP I have found it quite useful. For example if a large bit jams on a DP, slow speed reverse can extricate the jammed bit. At slow speed, even under a vector drive VFD, the motor will have limited power so it will stall the motor well before it breaks a bit, about the only time the lower power at slow speeds is of any benefit. If you use sanding bobbins on a DP then a reverse might be useful. Also for those game enough to tap threads using a VFD powered DP :oo: the reverse is very handy. I have done this on thin Al and plastic and it it works quite well. I have used reverse on my belt sander because the rollers at each end of the bet are different sizes and sometimes one suits better than the other - the nuisance then comes regarding the need to reposition dust collection.

Anyway I hope this provides folks with some ideas and gotchas to be aware of.

Chris Parks

21st May 2017, 02:44 PM

The error that occurs in the Powtran only came to light when the new P19 series went into service, whether they changed the timing or the software I don't know but it is a simple fix so really is not an issue. It also seems to be only confined to CV Maxes in my experience but I haven't seen a lot of installations with the new series and my own never gave the error controlling a CV1800 so I suspect the heavier impeller must have something to do with that.

Lappa

21st May 2017, 05:23 PM

If you'd like to do some measurements Fletty, I'd be more that happy to ship my Hot wire anemometer down to you. It just needs a Smart phone or an iPad to run a program and act as it's display.

Chris Parks

22nd May 2017, 12:02 PM

BobL

22nd May 2017, 03:08 PM

I have just received a reply from Powtran re the current displayed when the VFD is running.....
If you didn't change any special parameter, the 1st monitor (the up bigger one) displays the running frequency (Hz), the 2nd monitor (the below smaller one) displays the combined running current (the actual output current)
I can ask further questions if needed.

Thanks Chris.

I will need to measure the output V for VFD it's usually the same at 50 Hz and above but it may not be.

@ 60Hz the Powtran shows 3.2A, but the input mains panel meter reads 1.2A and a Fluke Clamp meter on the input reads 1.65 A?
@ 50Hz it show 4.4 A , panel shows 1.4 and the Fluke shows 1.9A
@40 Hz it shows 4.4 A, panel shows 1.2 and Fluke shows 1.6A
These are amongst the biggest differences I have seen between input and output currents.

In the case of the panel meter I know it's not a true rms current sensor so I can understand if any non-50Hz or strange V waveforms will affect the reading and have seen this often on other VFDs.
Even when the meter is on the input side there are significant V reflections back down the line that screw up the readings
The Fluke meter is however a quality true RMS meter and is rated for a 40 to 400Hz frequency range, however it may not be able to handle weird wave froms.

I will set up my breakout box on the output side of the VFD and measure the currents with the Fluke on the output side.

BobL

22nd May 2017, 05:40 PM

I measure the currents thru each phase fron the PowTran to a 3HP motor using the fluke clamp meter and while the readings are much closer than the currents seen on the input side they are still not the same.

Freq (Hz); VFD display (A) ; Clamp meter reading for each phase (A);
40 ; 4.37 ; 4.64, 4.68, 4.63
50 ; 4.37 ; 4.69, 4.69, 4.63
60 ; 3.28 ; 3.46 , 3.48, 3.50
70 ; 2.72 ; 2.98 , 2.89, 2.98

So it looks like the VFD display current might be for a single phase, if so multiply by 1.73 to get total current.

Chris did you say a 3kW? motor on the Powtran displays ~9A when running the ClearVue at 50Hz?

Chris Parks

22nd May 2017, 07:16 PM

Bob, are we talking input or output current, I think that should be stated to avoid confusion. I don't think I have ever taken readings at 50hz but if I did my memory is a blank. CMS state some figures for their Max on the website Corrimal Community Men's Shed Cyclone Dust Collection System - Automatic Cyclone DC System (http://mastslav.weebly.com) and we put a clamp meter on my 1800 when they were first looked at buying one and came up with a peak starting current of 16 amps INPUT for about one second then it settled down to about 7 INPUT (from a very shaky memory). I have been mucking around today with mine running it at different speeds and I can take some notes later. I wanted to see how 65hz worked and it appears by the seat of the pants flow meter to substantially increase the flow or at least enough to make it worthwhile to run it at 65hz. The noise level of the air flow is increased substantially over 60hz which makes me feel better!:D

Edited for clarity, added INPUT

BobL

22nd May 2017, 09:32 PM

Bob, are we talking input or output current, I think that should be stated to avoid confusion.

Sorry I should have been more explicit.
Given its a single phase input and I've measured the currents for each phase that has to be output current i.e. current supplied by VFD to motor.

I don't think I have ever taken readings at 50hz but if I did my memory is a blank. CMS state some figures for their Max on the website Corrimal Community Men's Shed Cyclone Dust Collection System - Automatic Cyclone DC System (http://mastslav.weebly.com) and we put a clamp meter on my 1800 when they were first looked at buying one and came up with a peak starting current of 16 amps for about one second then it settled down to about 7 (from a very shaky memory). I have been mucking around today with mine running it at different speeds and I can take some notes later. I wanted to see how 65hz worked and it appears by the seat of the pants flow meter to substantially increase the flow or at least enough to make it worthwhile to run it at 65hz. The noise level of the air flow is increased substantially over 60hz which makes me feel better!:D

Thanks, thats good to hear about the 65Hz

Chris Parks

23rd May 2017, 12:44 AM

I sent another email to Powtran and asked for a clarification on the displayed current as it is obviously not the total current being supplied to the motor or I didn't think it was and received this in reply....

>It's not the 3 phase added figure, all the 3 phase are same figures (very small difference).
One very important thing for VFD is that the voltage between phase to phase (U-W, U-V, V-W) must be in a balance (same figure or a very close figure).
If the phase to phase voltage is not balanced, the VFD has problem<

So in translation I take that to mean it is the output current for each phase to the motor. I have been dealing with the same person for many years so it is not some stranger replying to my questions and while his written english is very good sometimes it needs a bit of interpretation.

BobL

23rd May 2017, 02:13 PM

Thanks Chris.
Yes I am aware of the need for small differences between the phases. Some of the differences are meter interferences from the other active leads/fields and some are contact resistance differences. That reminds me that these contracts should be clean and form.

I posted something on the effect of non-sinusoidal waveforms back in 2014 in this post http://www.woodworkforums.com/f271/vfd-current-waveforms-values-185557?highlight=waveforms
And in this thread I compared the Fluke meter with the HY (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f271/true-rms-current-measurements-186933?highlight=fluke) current display and another clamp meter
The HY seems to show currents between 10 and 20% lower than the Fluke, while the Powtran is between 6 and 10% lower than the Fluke.

I did a bit of reading and the the differences I'm seeing on the output side are almost certainly the differences in the current sensor characteristics and the algorithms used to determine the RMS current from a non-sinusoidal waveforms.
Like all clamp meters the fluke clamp uses a coil to sense the meter - this has its own characteristic behaviour to waveforms so this has to be taken into account.

In the case of the Powtran which is a quality product I reckon they would have used an algorithm(s) specific to their VFD output, while in the case of the HY we wont really know.

Chris Parks

23rd May 2017, 05:30 PM

Just for giggles this is a current table I compiled today. My system is 150mm on the main duct and to my mitre saw and two ducts which are not are 125mm and 100mm because the machines cannot be altered to accept 150mm without huge internal changes or in one case (the overhead hood) the machine simply won't work with anything else which is a pain.

413001

It can be seen that the current draw does not appear to have peaked at 70hz but I am not pushing it any further. I am not qualified in VFD's or electrical matters and cannot comment on whether there are any differences between a single phase and three phase supply and what that may do to the results above but mine is three phase in and out.

RustyArc

23rd May 2017, 05:35 PM

I'm currently (no pun intended) waiting for one of these bad boys to turn up:
Qingdao Hantek Electronic Co., Ltd. (http://www.hantek.com/en/ProductDetail_15_77.html)

Good up to 20kHz they claim, although I think there's a thread on the EEV Blog that goes further into the actual bandwidth of the thing.

Had ordered it to check the behaviour of my new TIG machine, but also might throw it on the odd VFD...

QC Inspector

25th May 2017, 06:26 AM

BobL

25th May 2017, 09:57 AM

Gentlemen are surge suppressors required/advised for these VFD's? The question is prompted because I'm listening to lots of thunder in the distance and a spark to the lines this side of a fuse could fry things.

Pete

Surge protector are designed to protect against some hundreds of excess V in the supply but their effectiveness against lightening strikes is limited.
The smaller and cheaper the suppressor unit the less likely it is to provide any sort of protection and there have been many cases of equipment still being damaged without the suppressor being affected, damaged or activated.
Sometimes it's because that the suppressor was just junk, but another reason is because lightening can strike the ground or your home and generate electrical fields in air or on the ground large enough damage your hardware without going through the supply lines.

I worked in a lab full of expensive and sensitive electronic gear where we had 2 x 20KvA suppressors and line conditioners to tidy up the mains power. About 10 years ago I was in the lab when lightening hit the carpark immediately outside the lab windows generating a dinner plate size crater and a puddle of molten asphalt around that. There was an almighty bang and a sheet of blue flame arced across one end of the lab. There was no visible damaged but it became quickly apparent that some sensitive stuff was toast and we managed to claim that on insurance. Other stuff seemed fine but over time that too started playing up but it was too late to claim that on insurance. Eventually we started having earthing problems and when we went to check on the earth strap (a copper strap with about a 25 x 10 mm cross section attached to the university copper mains water ring main pipes) immediately outside the lab we could see it was scorched. What we now believe happened is the lightening came back into the lab via the earth strap!
In the end we had so much trouble with the the gear we retired it and ended up giving the gear to the Uni of Toronto geology department who came down and painstakingly took the gear apart and kept all the spare parts that they found useful and the rest got trashed. I still have the HD feet of the electronics racks in my shed.

If you require lightening protection you should be using a specially lightening arrestor system

VFDs are designed to protect themselves against some level of over voltages in the supply so they may cope with that to some extent without a surge suppressor. If VFDs are installed in a fully earthed metal enclosure with shielded cables that will provide some protection

My recommendation is if you already have have a surge suppressor that is up to spec then use it otherwise I would not go out and buy one specifically for this purpose

RustyArc

25th May 2017, 10:27 AM

I have a drive in a bore shed that has its own transformer hanging off the passing HV lines. That has a set of MOVs on the switchboard - I did look at more comprehensive protection, which involves spark gaps and delay elements, but it was suggested that the existing surge mitigation in the HV network and the lack of exposed LV wiring between the transformer and shed meant that it wouldn't be of much benefit. Not sure if that was entirely true, but anyway...

The drive had a pressure sensor down the bore to sense the depth, the idea being that if the water level dropped too far while pumping, it'd wind back the speed to prevent pumping it dry. On one occasion there was an electrical storm many kilometers away - no strikes anywhere in the proximity of the shed - but the depth sensor and analogue input to the drive got zapped, my guess being that there was a surge carried through the aquifer from a strike far away.

The moral of that story is that lightning does strange, unexpected things, and it's not a bad idea to use isolators for signal inputs.

QC Inspector

25th May 2017, 11:39 AM

BobL

25th May 2017, 02:36 PM

I checked the panel (new house) and there doesn't appear to be any surge protection here unless it is in the meter box outside. I'm not going to sweat it for the moment. Next time I see the neighbour electrician I'll ask him what he thinks. With most every appliance in the house including the water, air and heat having tons of electronic controls in them it's a wonder why they aren't self protected. Or maybe they are and I don't know it. :rolleyes: Pete

Do you get much lightening your way?

The fact that so little electronics has built in surge protection is an indication of the risks. Some areas are more risky that others when it may be worth spending the money on getting something but as what happened to us in the lab you can spend many thousands and still not be risk free.

Lappa

26th May 2017, 05:49 PM

413182 :D

On page 4 of the manual, it states;

"Lightning surge protection - the series inverter is equipped with lightning over current protection device, so it has the ability of self-protection to lightning induction. For the area where lightning is frequent, user should install extra protection in the front of the inverter."

QC Inspector

27th May 2017, 12:36 AM

I got my 4 K VFD last night and read that when I was skimming the manual. One of the few things I understood. :) I'll be getting one for the panel to protect the house. We get lightning often enough that it's justified I think. Sparking again yesterday and the thunder claps were only a few seconds after the flashes. Power flickered a few times. Now that I have the VFD to drive the CV-Max I can start putting the dust collection together between honey do tasks.

Pete

BobL

27th May 2017, 07:24 PM

In the SAJ manual its says;

"Thunder Stroke Protection
Even there is protection device to protect inverter from induction thunder stroke, it's necessary for users in frequent thunder stroke area to install other protective device."

The HY and Honeywell don't say anything about lightening strike.

Lappa

7th June 2017, 07:25 PM

Are most 2.2kW (3hp) 3 phase Motors 2 pole?

BobL

7th June 2017, 07:58 PM

Are most 2.2kW (3hp) 3 phase Motors 2 pole?

Not necessarily, In my shed the 2.2kW BS is 1450 rpm (4 pole), the belt sander is 2900 rpm (2 pole), the 2 other 3HP motors I have are 4 pole.

Pumps, dust extractors, table saws and some compressors usually use 2 pole.

Air cons, BS, DPs, and lathes usually use 4 pole,

One advantage of a 4 pole is you can get a better overall speed range with them than a 2 pole.

Lappa

7th June 2017, 08:03 PM

Are those you mention, that you have in your shed, all 415v 3 phase?

BobL

7th June 2017, 08:26 PM

Are those you mention, that you have in your shed, all 415v 3 phase?

They were but now they are 240V 3Phase.

I have total of 17, 3 phase motors in my shed and all expect 3 have been converted to 240V 3P.
One is a 415V 3P ∆ that cannot be converted to 240V ∆ with a complete rewire, one is a pump motor I got for free and is not in good shape so I might just dump that one, and one is part of a closed loop coolant system which will be converted WIGRTI.

Lappa

10th June 2017, 10:11 AM

BobL

10th June 2017, 10:53 AM

I'm interested in a 3 phase motor which is some distance away. I've asked the guy to take a picture of the motor plaque but he says it's unreadable. He took the cover off the connection box and sent me this photo.
Can you tell from this whether the motor can be easily converted to delta?.
TIA
413867

I'm not certain but it looks like a fixed Y connection and would need to have a bot of surgery on it to convert it to ∆.

Easily Convertible motors have a connection box that looks like this.
2 rows of 3 connectors
413868

Under the cover of the connector box they usually have a diagram showing Y and ∆ connection setups like this.
The motor above is currently connected as Y, to make it a ∆ 240V , the connection between W2 and U2, and between U2 and V2 are moved and
new connections are established between W2 - U1, U2 - V1, and V2 - W1 as shown on the LHS of the photo
413874

BTW, unless you have some experience on electric motors I would be wary about buying a motor without a name plate on it and running it on a VFD.
You have no idea what its current rating is so you cannot supply the VFD with the correct motor ratings to maintain safe motor operation.

fletty

10th June 2017, 10:57 AM

It's hard to be sure from that picture. Basically, there's 3 windings in a 3 phase motor and you need to get to both ends of all of the windings. So, the simplest, and most desirable arrangement for you, is that there are 6 leads coming from inside the motor into the terminal box. However, when you get access to all 6 leads, you will connect 3 of them together to make the STAR point but, in some motors, the manufacturer has already made the star point inside the motor by connecting the ends of the 3 coils and so there are four leads coming from inside the motor into the terminal box.
The 3 phase motor on my DC had this arrangement when bought...

413875
... and, ignoring the (green/yellow) earth, you can see that there are only 3 leads coming from inside the motor and so I had to get the rewinder to go in and bring out the other 3 ends.
Can you ask the potential seller to remove any remnants of the original connecting lead coming from outside the motor (if any), unscrew the terminal block and pull it forward far enough to count the number of leads coming from inside the motor?

EDIT, I was (too slowly?) typing my reply as Bob was typing his. As you can see on Bob's picture of the terminal box lid, THAT motor has the most desirable 6 leads U1, U2, V1, V2, W1, and W2 coming from inside the motor in to the terminal box. The movement of the changeable links simply is an elegant way to connect as STAR, which is what you need :Uor DELTA :no:

Lappa

10th June 2017, 01:38 PM

Thanks for the replies Bobl and Fletty. The motor in question is connected to a jointer which is attached to a homemade base. From the pictures and the response from the guy, when I asked him for photos inside the cover, its right underneath and a pig to get to:((
I don't think the seller is interested in more dismantling but I may approach him again when the auction runs out if he hadn't sold it.
As Bobl said, without info on current, kW etc. it's going to be difficult to hook it up to my VFD. If I can get it cheap enough, I may throw a single phase on it as it's only a 6" unit and not worth spending big $$$ on.
Cheers

additional info. When talking to the guy yesterday re the wiring he said that it had a capacitor connected. Is this normal on a three phase motor?

BobL

10th June 2017, 02:46 PM

When talking to the guy yesterday re the wiring he said that it had a capacitor connected. Is this normal on a three phase motor?

No its not normal. It sounds like he's been running it on single phase. If so it's not really that good for it in the long run.

Lappa

10th June 2017, 03:03 PM

It's got a 3 phase plug?

BobL

10th June 2017, 03:23 PM

It's got a 3 phase plug?

Sorry I'm stumped at this point.

fletty

10th June 2017, 03:54 PM

:whs:
Im not liking the sound of this? All I can think of is that it is a single phase motor being run on 3 phase with the capacitor acting as a static inverter? Single phase ( which is really 2 phase) motors usually have a capacitor start winding because a single phase motor can't actually start because its 2 power phases are 180 deg out of synch and FOR THE SHORT DURATION OF STARTING, the capacitor acts as a 3rd phase to get the rotation started? BUT, why would you run a single phase motor on 3 phase?

bueller

10th June 2017, 11:07 PM

This might be a stupid question but here goes. When running a 3 phase motor through the vfd would it use the same number of amps as a single phase 240v motor of the same HP?

BobL

10th June 2017, 11:26 PM

Yes it works out about the same - the VFD itself uses some 10's of mA which is over and above that.

bueller

12th June 2017, 01:06 AM

Cheers Bob, good to know.

Lappa

6th September 2017, 11:53 PM

I'm looking at a 415v 3hp extractor that's for sale. It's miles away so I haven't looked at it but got a picture of the motor plate.

419737

Does this definately mean it an it can be converted to delta for my VFD or just a maybe?

cheers

Bohdan

7th September 2017, 12:10 AM

Yes. The delta connections are shown on the top RHS of the plate.

P.S. Or bottom left if you have the photo the right way up.

NCArcher

7th September 2017, 07:05 AM

Not necessarily. It only has values for Star on the plate. It may be a generic plate that is used for all motors. You need to look inside the terminal box to be sure.
Where is it Peter? Can someone closer have a look?

Lappa

7th September 2017, 08:04 AM

It's up past Kumond and it's on ebay ending Friday so not much chance of a look see :(( It was just a thought and not an essential and getting it home was another matter so I'll wait for one closer.

BobL

13th September 2017, 10:50 AM

I have been dealing with Powtran in China to purchase a decent quality 3P-3P VFD.
I started out trying to go through their Alibaba portal but that was hopeless so I approached them direct and their response has been EXCELLENT.

Powtran's latest entry level Vector Drive VFDs (PI9130A series) are full vector drive with the braking circuitry built in, dual speed potentiometer, dual displays and a host of other features - most of which we will never use.

The standard large red LED display shows any value that a machine operator would need to see, while the smaller 4 line OLED (multi-lingual) display screen shows other parameters and is useful for programming. These are much more ruggedised units than the comparable Huanyang VFD models and given the quality, the prices are very reasonable.

You have to ask for a quote and while Was at it I asked for some 220-380V model prices and this is what they provided.
Their 1.5HP model (1R5G1) is US$115
The 3HP (2R2G1) is US$129
5HP (004G1) is US$160
Delivery via DHL is US$40

I ordered a 1.5HP 3P-3P VFD (1R5G3)and it was the same price as the 1R5G1.
So for a total of AUS$200 I get a full vector drive VFD with a host of useful features.

The contact email is [email protected]
The contact name is Nicole Chan.

Back in post #11 of this thread I did a side-by-side comparison of an older model Powtran (PI9100 series) with the HY and you can see some of the differences.

Chris Parks

13th September 2017, 11:54 AM

BobL

13th September 2017, 12:57 PM

I'd be interested to know the model number of the PT Minis as I can't find a "mini" on the Powtran Website.

I don't remember Powtran prices always being that comparable. When I first looked at VFD prices in 2011/12, 1.5HP HYs were a $115 while a comparably powered Powtran (albeit with more features) was more than double this. Choice of VFD also can depend on what sort of machine is being powered and machine usage. For example using a $400 VFD on a ClearVue is appropriate use on a $3500+ machine that is going to be run for long periods on full load. However, when fitting a VFD to an old 3P ventilator I got out of a skip and only use on average on low speed for about an hour week I went for a used VFD purchased off eBay for $75.

One reason HYs have become popular with forum members is probably because of the experience base of members on the forums, with members like Joe Hovel and others who were amongst the first on the forums to become proficient in HY programming. The sheer size of some of the manuals and the programming aspect of using some of the VFDs (especially the vector control side) is non-trivial and moving to a new VFD represents a significant barrier to some folks. The HYs have also proved to be very reliable - I've have 21 years worth of cumulative HY ownership without any problems. However, with price differentials now down to 30% the PTs are very good value for the few extra $ involved.

Chris Parks

13th September 2017, 03:15 PM

My apologies for the comments I have just removed as they were uncalled for and unwanted by Bob.

PI130 economical vector frequency converter,Products,POWTRAN, VECTOR CONTROL INVERTER,AC DRIVES,SOFT STARTER,SERVO ,DALIAN Powtran technology co.,ltd. (http://www.powtran.com/en/productpage28.html)

BobL

13th September 2017, 05:03 PM

Thanks for the lead on the Mini's.

I suppose it is up to you Bob if you want to buy junk or quality with factory back up and no hassles because the manuals aren't rubbish.

I admit every now and then I get tempted, but I don't feel a great need to own and cannot currently justify to myself owning a workshop full of high quality machinery. A walk though my workshop will see that most of my machinery is indeed low end machinery and has either been picked up for free, or out of a skip, or is Sherwood, Carbatech etc level stuff bought on special. And FWIW I have a few Ozito and Ryobi power tools as well. Putting a $400 VFD onto a machine that came out of a skip and that might die in the next few years seems a bit incongruous to me. I realise not all DIYers are like this and when folks ask me about VFDs I try to ascertain where they are coming from. If they were talking about adding a VFD to a Felder or Clearvue I don't recall ever recommending using a HY. If they picked up a WW lathe from a garage sale for $100 and wanted to add a VFD to that then I would suggest an HY , and now I will point them to a mini.

RustyArc

13th September 2017, 08:48 PM

pintek

14th September 2017, 08:12 AM

That said, ABB have really good support engineers.
ABB certainly produce some quality gear. We use the Allen Bradley Powerflex 4 & 4M purely for support and quality on our jobs. Firmly believe you get what you pay for with this type of equipment like most things but as Bob said, for home use it needs to be relative to the equipment it's being attached to.

BobL

22nd September 2017, 04:33 PM

I got some more prices on VFDs from Powtran.

The Mini or Budget / entry level 240V VFDs (PI160 models) with vector control
2.2kW with no e-brake circuitry are US$85 (Model Number PI160 2R2G1)
1.5kW with no e-brake circuitry are US$73 (Model No, PI160 1R5G1

The braking circuitry adds ~$5 onto the price (braked model numbers have a Z added to the end of them)
Brake resistors cost US$7

Shipping adds a further US$40 but you should get it within a week - my last order took 3days!

These Entry level 240V VFDs only go up to 2.2kW above that you have to go to more pro units.

Even including the shipping these prices are cheaper than comparable HY models which don't have vector control.

Stewie D

22nd September 2017, 08:23 PM

The mini VFD's are a really interesting product that would suit drill presses, grinders etc and are very compact in size but not features.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Chris.
For most of us running pretty basic gear as you say drill presses, grinders etc the only thing we'd want is to be able to run a 3 Phase machine on single phase 240v.
For others that may want something like a 3 Phase metal lathe running on single phase the more features the VFD's have then the better they can fine tune their machines to perform exactly how they want.
Great thread.

Stewie

BobL

22nd September 2017, 08:57 PM

As far as basic VFDs go the PI160 series or "minis" appears to be a significant step up from a "basic" VFD.

They all have sensorless vector control and the "Z" versions have built in braking circuitry.
The vector control makes a big difference as it doubles the effective speed range which makes a big difference on machines like drill presses and wood working lathes.
A standard V/F controlled (as opposed to vector control) motor has a nominal effective speed range of about 5:1.
A Vector drive effectively doubles this to 10:1.
If the motor power is doubled then this makes it up to 20:1 and this will make belt changing a rare event.

The only limitation I can see so far with the "mini" is they max out at 300Hz which limits them for CNC use but for all other WW machines then 120 Hz or maybe 150 Hx if you are game

Chris Parks

22nd September 2017, 11:22 PM

I think Bob makes a good point - if you're feeling your way into the world of VFDs, the HY is a good choice simply because of the level of support you'll get from a whole bunch of forums. It may be technically inferior to, say, the Powertran, but if you're just starting out, not quite as good is not the most important thing - getting it working properly is. I use Danfoss and ABB drives for non-messing-around applications, and while the documentation is extensive and generally excellent, there's not so many forums I can jump onto and get answers like you can with the HY.

That said, ABB have really good support engineers.

I look at it this way, if I am just starting out I want to be able to email the manufacturer and get an answer to a problem not depend on well meaning mates on a forum. When we first started using Powtran I wrote an email asking a question and five minutes later the phone rang with the answer from an engineer. That was unusual because they were trying to (I suspect) impress me because they knew I was going to be a continuing customer which proved correct as apart from the very early cyclones they have all had Powtran VFD's so the testing has already been done in Oz.

bueller

12th October 2017, 06:07 PM

Hoping for some advice, tearing my hair out right now.

I bought a 5HP 3-phase cabinet saw a little over a month ago and had the intention to replace the motor with a single phase 3HP unit, thought this wouldn't be too tough as they originally offered the saw with both motors available. I thought I'd found the perfect thing in a CMG 3.2HP motor from Hare and Forbes but after picking it up today I realised it's actually a drip proof model that was incorrectly advertised on their site as TEFC. Shame because that was the only one I could find that fit the mounting location and from what I've read TEFC motors are pretty much a requirement for cabinet saws.

So now I'm wondering if I should think about running the original 5HP on a VFD and de-rating it to 3HP but I'm not entirely certain if this will work at the correct RPM's or have enough torque. There are definitely 5HP single phase in - 3 phase out VFD's available but I'm hesitant to go out and purchase one without knowing what I'm getting myself in for. I've converted my jointer with a VFD previously but that was simple, it was only a 2HP motor so I bought a 2HP VFD and away I went. Didn't have to worry about exceeding the power source available to me.

I can find other 3HP 240v TEFC motors on Ebay or from Hare and Forbes but they'd all require some sort of modification to either the mounting feet or the mount in the saw and I'm not really equipped to do that sort of thing. So my options aren't looking great right now. I can run the drip proof motor and have it fill up with dust, possibly go for a VFD and the original motor or attempt the mods required to fit a more common 3HP motor to the saw. Thoughts?

BobL

12th October 2017, 06:13 PM

Hoping for some advice, tearing my hair out right now.

I bought a 5HP 3-phase cabinet saw a little over a month ago . . . .

First thing is to check the motor connection.

Most 3P 415V 5HP motors for Table saws are ∆ connected and some are hard wired as Delta.

If it's the latter this it they cannot be run from a 240V VFD (well they will run but they will only generate half their rated HP) because the 415V motor has to be Y connected and then converted back to ∆ to generate full power on 240V.
This is often near impossible to do or not worth doing.

If it is a Y convertible to ∆, I have an unmounted 5HP VFD you can try it out on.

bueller

12th October 2017, 06:21 PM

Cheers Bob, always a fountain of knowledge. Here’s what we’re dealing with, looks like 3 wires out of the motor.

421945

BobL

12th October 2017, 06:32 PM

Can't tell from that photo.

What does it say on the motor name plate?

Also look under the connection box cover.

bueller

12th October 2017, 06:38 PM

Unfortunately nothing helpful from the looks of things, no mention of the wiring on the plate or anywhere on the connection box cover.

421946421947

BobL

12th October 2017, 06:45 PM

The only thing left to do is pull the motor apart and see if there is a Y connection - but somehow I doubt it.

bueller

12th October 2017, 06:47 PM

Fair enough, looks like it's probably not worth the trouble. Hare and Forbes have at least said they'll let me return the motor so I might try calling into some motor places with the 3 phase motor in tow to see if they can identify a replacement.

Thanks for your help!

BobL

12th October 2017, 07:08 PM

bueller

12th October 2017, 07:26 PM

Might be worth a look if you don’t mind, you in the shed over the weekend?

BobL

12th October 2017, 07:42 PM

Might be worth a look if you don’t mind, you in the shed over the weekend?

Yep. Sat arvo onwards

bueller

12th October 2017, 08:27 PM

Cool cheers mate I’ll send you a message in the morning.

RustyArc

12th October 2017, 10:28 PM

I have JET dust extractor that has a 2hp 3ph motor which was 415V star connected. Finding and digging out the star point, separating the wires and running them out for 240V delta connection was pretty straightforward - hopefully it'll be similar for this bigger motor.

BobL

12th October 2017, 10:43 PM

BobL

17th October 2017, 01:06 PM

I got some more prices on VFDs from Powtran.
The Mini or Budget / entry level 240V VFDs (PI160 models) with vector control
1.5kW with no e-brake circuitry are US$73 (Model No, PI160 1R5G1
The braking circuitry adds ~$5 onto the price (braked model numbers have a Z added to the end of them)
Brake resistors cost US$7.

Today I received a 1.5kW Mini PI160Z and some brake resistors.
This time, delivery took 4 weeks because the resistors are not made by PowTran and had to come from another factory.
Plus there was a two week factory shut down/holiday during that time.

Below you can see the size of the 160 (top) compared to the equivalent power (1.5kW) HY underneath.
The compactness is significant given its a full vector drive VFD

422437

Below is a photo of the 160 compared to an industrial strength PI930 2.2kW Powtran.
The Al box in the middle is a brake resistor - this is used to slow the motor down more rapidly than the VFD can do it.

422438

I bought the 160 mainly to have a play with it and see what it can do but I might replace the 1.5kW HY on my DP with the 160 as it is a full vector drive and will further reduce the need to change belts especially at low speed.

One of the brake resistors i for the RAS at the mens shed.

BobL

17th October 2017, 06:17 PM

A couple more photos and observations.The mains power input for the 160 is at the top and the 3P output and brake terminals are underneath.There is only one earth point at the top so the 3P earth has to be taken off at that point - not so tidy.There are no provisions for cable glands etc so it assumes this type of unit will be mounted in and enclosure or away from prying hands.422449

The number of control connections is about half of those found on the more industrial P1930 but more than enough for basic machine operation. 422451

The 160 manual is ~130 pages versus the ~180 for the 9130 but the font used in the 160 manual is correspondingly smaller so theres no lack of detailThe number and numbering of the Functional parameter subgroups are the same (means easier to modify once you learn one set)There are slightly fewer parameters in the 160 instruction set but once again more than enough for basic machine operations.422452